| Author | Message | ||
| Gatororeo7 Registered user Username: Gatororeo7 Post Number: 142 Registered: 4-2002 |
For those of you who are fans of Bob George's People to People Ministries and his radio program (and to all others interested): Bob is beginning a series from his study guide called A Closer Look at Your Identity in Christ starting next Friday, 18 June and every Friday until God knows when! As most of you already know, I am not at all shy about plugging his ministry and material, simply because he has been blessed by God to truly break people from the bondage they've been under. It's been instrumental in my life and many of you I know as well. He did this series about 3 years ago, and I have the study guide. It really helped me understand who I am in Christ and understand God's grace. All of us can relate from being involved in Adventism how lost and misplaced we felt while Adventist. Now in the light of God's grace we can see what Adventism so desperately tried to take from us, our identity in Christ. As always, Bob's site is www.realanswers.net. You can find on there what station and time his program comes on if you're interested. You'll probably hear me talk about it a lot in the coming weeks. God bless! Joel | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 88 Registered: 4-2000 |
Joel, As you may already know, I also promote Bob George's People to People Ministries. Being their program is not available here in eastern Nebraska on radio, I listen via his website. It would be great to attend his church in Dallas as well. Indeed, our identity is in Christ (excellent theology). Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Gatororeo7 Registered user Username: Gatororeo7 Post Number: 143 Registered: 4-2002 |
Dennis, Before we moved out west I would listen on his website as often as I could. Now I can get a radio signal out of Sacramento and he comes on just as I come home from work. Certainly a good way to come home and relax. I'm really looking forward to him starting that series. I've been wanting to get down to Dallas too for one of his conferences. I'll just have to save up my money and leave time =). | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 566 Registered: 7-2000 |
Thanks, Joel, for the info on that series. Your note above was so true, "Now in the light of God's grace we can see what Adventism so desperately tried to take from us, our identity in Christ." In a recent interaction with devout SDA's, we were told we are now "following the Papacy"...simply because we no longer "keep" the Sabbath. (and worse, attend "Sunday" churches.) Adventist doctrine ultimately finds it's identity in an organization...in a prophet, in a day... not a Person. Jesus Christ is dethroned from His place of supremacy. grace always, cindy | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 118 Registered: 3-2004 |
The longer I am on this web site and the more I read the more I can see what being an SDA did to us as adventists. I thank God for my identity in Christ. That is the only identity I want. Thanks to all of you who are helping me. Diana | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 596 Registered: 11-2002 |
Cindy, what you say is so ture. I am thinking this because around a year ago the SDA's had a big convention back east in Canada and the president of the denomination made some very strong statements about being SDA. In one statement he said that he stakes his salvation on his being SDA. In another he said that too many people in the denominationare are identifing themselves as Christian rather than as Seventh-day Adventist Christian. | ||
| Gatororeo7 Registered user Username: Gatororeo7 Post Number: 144 Registered: 4-2002 |
The more I think about it, and the more I listen to your testimonies, the more I see what Adventism is doing to people and their relationship to God. I think that the robbing of the Christian's identity is what makes coming out of Adventism so difficult. We hear that we are a child of God and immediately we want to say "yeah, but..." because that's what we're conditioned with. But simply, being a child of God is completely beyond the scope of Adventist teaching, completely foreign to them. Recently I received a rather harsh rebuke on CARM from the SDA ringleader for (1) not being Seventh-day Adventist, (2) rejecting SDA teaching, and (3) believing that I can experience the Christian life outside of and without any ties to Adventism whatsoever. Seventh-day Adventists, in my opinion, have no identity outside Adventism, which is why I believe they see us outside SDA as so hopelessly lost. The problem though is an Adventist has no clue who he is other than as an Adventist. Ask an Adventist what it means to be Adventist and you'll get rambling about the law. But ask as child of God what it means to be a child of God and you'll hear the gospel. Jesus Christ is the only one we can be identified with who will satisfy the need for life that eats at us the day we're born. Because we're born spiritually dead, our spirits cry out for life. Adventism cannot give it with their brand of Jesus. Only Christ Himself can fill the void. Friend, you are God's very own child. It is so vitally important that you understand that and what exactly that means. For me, it has broken 10 years of religious bondage, my entire adolescent life (I'll only be 23 on the 28th, lol). I plug this series Bob George is doing because of what simply reading through his study giude did to my life. I'm excited now to actually hear him teach from it. You need to understand who you are in Christ, and hear it over and over again. It will change your life. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 294 Registered: 12-2003 |
Joel, I also recommend Bob George. His book Classic Christianity did the same thing for me that you describe. It made me realize that when I am a child of God, I can be nothing else. I remember so vividly that he he used two experiences he had with people he worked with to point out you can't have two identities: you can't be both child of God and also anorexic or homosexual (as in the cases he cited)--or, I might add, Adventist. If you are a child of God (born again by faith in Christ and sealed by His Spirit), then all other ways you knew yourself before are subsumed into your new identity of Child of God. God now is in charge, and we have to give up our emotional ties to all other identities and allow Him to transform us. You are absolutely right about Adventists and their identities. When we left the church, part of the reason it was so terribly painful to me was that identity issue. I was more Adventist than I was American. Jesus made it clear to me I had to let that core identity (as well as all others including musician) go so He could be my identity. That identity issue is one of the ways I know that Adventism has a deceptive and binding spirit. When the Holy Spirit comes to us, he witnesses to our spirits that we are children of God (Romans 8:16), and He also testifies about Christ. We become one with Christ; he becomes our reason for living and loving. Adventists have Adventism as their identity. That does not witness to them about their status as child of God, nor does it witness to them about Christ. Adventists who have accepted Jesus live with great cognitive dissonance. (I speak from years of anxious experience.) You can't have both identities; you can't serve two masters. Praise God for freedom in Jesus! Colleen | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 94 Registered: 10-2001 |
You all hit it right on. I got the latest Bacchiochi tome of nonsense. I wrote back and told him to take me off of the list. He rambled on about the Passion, the Pentecostal influence on the SDA church and all churches, the Sabbath, of course, half of the letter was commercials for selling his worthless opinion. I asked him what he would do if Jesus asks him why he persecutes the church. Told him he is a modern day Saul, zeal but not according to knowledge, and that he hold the Sabbath up as an idol and places it before the Gospel. He wrote back that I am off of the list, and need to see a psychiatrist as I obviously have severe mental problems. Short time back it would have bothered me, what bothers me now is that he rejected his conscience when he was learning the truth about EGW and after much opposition abandoned the study. I'm glad to be done with it. Little ties are cut one by one and we escape, better, stronger and more secure than ever. Bless the SDA church with truth, Holy Spirit, let those that would receive truth be free, in Jesus' Name. Amen | ||
| Kme Registered user Username: Kme Post Number: 55 Registered: 7-2000 |
Hi Sabra. What is going on with S.B.? Do you know him personally? Between yours and another recent post on here today it sounds like he is really nasty to people who write with opposing views. I have never checked his website out, but called him once when in MI to ask him if I could meet with him to ask him some questions about Holy Day keeping. He was in meetings and couldn't. You also mentioned something about him rejecting his conscience when learning the truth about EGW. Who did he have opposition from and what did he learn? Just curious. Have a blessed day. Kme | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 99 Registered: 10-2001 |
Hi Kme, About a year or so ago he was doing a study on EGW and trying to show where she was wrong and it looked like he was really close to truth about it. He kept asking if the readers wanted him to continue and posted some of the encouragement to do so. He received tons of opposition from the more conservative readers of his newsletter and some encouragement from the more liberal but he said ultimately that his wife asked him not to pursue the study because EGW had been such a blessing to her or something like that. So he just abandoned it. I corresponded with him some during that time. He is very condescending and arrogant. No, I don't know him personally. From what little I hear, lots of SDA's don't like him, some say he is a jesuit spy since he went to Rome, (I think) to study Catholism. Others can probably tell you more than I can. I correspond with some SDA's that are very polite, respectful and seeking. He isn't one of them. Bless him Jesus. Sabra | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 299 Registered: 12-2003 |
Actually, Bacchiocchi studied at the Vatican and used the results of his research in his famous book about the Sabbath. (I don't remember its name right now.) That book, he is proud to point out, has the papal imprimature seal in it. (Imprimature means "let it be printed".) His research at the Vatican is one of the points that he uses to underscore the "truth" of his conclusions re: the Catholic church's supposed change of Satruday to Sunday. | ||
| Kme Registered user Username: Kme Post Number: 59 Registered: 7-2000 |
Colleen, I think the name of the book you are trying to think of is FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY by S.B. I have a couple of other books about Sabbath that he wrote as well. Kme | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 101 Registered: 10-2001 |
I couldn't remember exactly. He does say that he "discovered" the RCC did not change the day. Well, lot of good that did him. | ||
| Kme Registered user Username: Kme Post Number: 64 Registered: 7-2000 |
Sabra are you kidding? Are you sure that he found that the Roman Catholic Church didn't change the Sabbath to Sunday ? This is pretty big! Since this is the arguement that the SDA's always use! I can't remember when I've had a conversation about Catholics or the Sabbath with SDA's that they didn't make a big deal of it. They show in all the prophecy seminars a quote in print from a preist that this is true etc...My sister told me a few years ago that the Catholics didn't change it but they take the credit for it since they're accused of it anyway. I don't have the book From Sabbath to Sunday but I think I know someone who does. Is that where he talks about it or is it on his website? Please let me know what you can. Kme | ||
| Kme Registered user Username: Kme Post Number: 65 Registered: 7-2000 |
Colleen I'm sorry I guess I should've directed this question to you since you were the first to post on it. I guess in my effort to remember the name of the book I missed the point! Is this information widely publisized in SDA circles? If this is true (and I was told he was the only one who is not Catholic that has been allowed go into the Catholic archives in Rome and look through their stuff)how can SDA's continue publisizing this nonsense? Ok, sorry I have to remember who we're talking about here. This IS their pattern of operations isn't it. Print it, preach it, cover up the lie and call the truth and continue! Sickening... Kme | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 609 Registered: 11-2002 |
I'd like to jump in on this conversation. Catholics believe the Catholic church is the first organized Christian church and was directed by God to proclaim the truth of Christianity throughout the world and that all popes succede from Peter. I also understand from my studies that the Christians began observing the first day of the week the very first Sunday (or soon thereafter) in commeration of the resurrection. Since the Catholic church believes it and it only is commissioned by God to lead the world to Cristianity then it only follows that of course the Catholic church would take credit for this change because anything and everything that is right within the Christian religion God has given them the power to teach and to intill in all Cristian people. Does this make sense? So, no the Catholics did not start the main worship day on Sunday.The apostles and the early Christians did. But, the Catholic church takes credit for the change because according to the Catholic church all early Christians, starting with Pope Peter were Catholics. | ||
| Kme Registered user Username: Kme Post Number: 67 Registered: 7-2000 |
I agree totally Susan. The Bible does say that Christ's followers gathered on the 1st day of the week. But you try to find an SDA who is aware of that and knows that the Catholic church didn't actually change worship from Sabbath to Sunday and you've found a rarity! Kme | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 107 Registered: 10-2001 |
Lots of them know it now, the ones that are willing to question EGW. What they don't get is that the RCC is about the only church that thinks Sunday is the Sabbath. | ||
| Sharon2 Registered user Username: Sharon2 Post Number: 27 Registered: 6-2004 |
You need to remember that at least until the destruction of Jerusalem, most believers in Jesus were Jewish. All evidence points to the apostles maintaining their Jewish lifestyle which included Sabbath and going to the Temple. When the Bible (written completely by Jews except for Luke) speaks of the first day of the week. That day begins at sundown on Sabbath. They could very well be referring to a meeting taking place at sundown on Sabbath. There is a traditional Jewish service at this time. Also, Jews had many ìSabbathsî that were on other days of the week other than the 7th day. And, like all of us do, they could gather on any day of the week for a special meeting, maybe with a special guest speaker. I do not believe that the Jewish apostles changed Sabbath to Sunday, but Sabbath keeping was not expressly commanded for the gentiles. At first many of the gentile converts were already keeping Sabbath because they were the God-fearers in the synagogues, but as time passed and the gentiles became separated from the synagogues and then outnumbered the Jews the change took place. By the 4th century it was legalized. I am still a Sabbath keeper. Itís not going to get me to heaven, but it may give me enough rest to make it through the next week. I love Sabbath. And I appreciate the discipline of the legalistic approach that I grew up in because now, even though I am far more relaxed about it, I can drop my secular responsibilities for 24 hours without a momentís guilt. I consider Sabbath Godís gift to me not my duty to Him. Sharon | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 569 Registered: 7-2000 |
It is interesting how each of us view the "Sabbath" now...God know each of our needs so well! To me, it is such a DELIGHT to be able to to "whatever" on Saturday (or Sunday...)! I no longer see a designation of "sacred" versus "secular". For me, ALL of my TIME... ALL of my responsibilities, are under the umbrella of God's care and grace. Nothing is secular. All time is sacred...even my weekly occupation). I have time periods of specific prayer/study/worship but I no longer see a difference of compartmentalizing my life into holy and secular. Does this ring true with any of you? It may be a little hard to explain, but it was a very good feeling yesterday (Saturday) to be FREE to go grocery shopping! And later in the afternoon, to a movie! This morning we're going to church...got to get ready! grace always, cindy | ||
| Sharon2 Registered user Username: Sharon2 Post Number: 30 Registered: 6-2004 |
I really appreciate the willingness of the people posting on former adventist to allow each person to move and grow as the Lord leads. On one of the threads there were some questions and comments about atomorrow. On that site, no matter what side of an issue you fall on, you can expect to be verbally blasted with proof texts, EGW, and condesending intellectualism. My brother is one of their moderators and regular verbal combatants. He has frequently urged me to post there, but that site seems to me to be devoid of the grace that God allows. I feel at home here. Sharon | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 101 Registered: 4-2000 |
If we continue to observe any of the convocations listed in Leviticus 23, the shadows pointing to the Messiah, we are actually denying the reality of Jesus Christ (see Col. 2:16-17). The following position paper on the Sabbath is biblically-correct: SHOULD THE CHRISTIAN OBSERVE THE SABBATH? By Woodrow Kroll Often Christians who worship on Sunday are asked, "Why don't you observe the Sabbath as commanded in the Ten Commandments?" The answer is simple. The Sabbath began before the commandments and outlived them. Let me explain. It was only when God finished the work of creating the heavens and earth that He rested. The Sabbath, the rest of God, implies perfect satifaction in what He had accomplished ("it was very good"). The seventh day was fixed by God to be a time of rest and joy for Himself and all creation. Since no more work had to be done, God rested. It was not because He was weary, but because He was finished. God blessed the Sabbath and sanctified it, setting it apart from the days of His labors. What's more, God had made man on the sixth day, so that the first day that dawned upon Adam was the Sabbath of God. Man immediately entered into the enjoyment of the Creator's rest. When God finishes His work, we benefit by entering into rest with Him. But that rest was quickly destroyed by man's sin. The Sabbath was destroyed. The tempter came, man rebelled against God and the rest was broken. In the ages that follow man appears to have forgotten that the Sabbath was "made for man" not man for the Sabbath. It took Jesus to straighten out man's thinking (Mark 2:27-28). He is the Lord of the Sabbath, and still some thinking appears to be confused about the what the Sabbath means. The Law entered when man sinned. The Law was a moral code, a schoolmaster to bring men and women back to God. The Law was designed to point men to Christ, God the Son. Therefore, the Ten Commandments specifically ordained, "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy" (Ex.20:8). As long as man lived apart from God, He lived under the Law. But if we remember that law of the Sabbath without remembering the purpose of the Sabbath, we only remember the code and not the Christ. Of all the Ten Commandments, the only one not repeated in the New Testament, the only on not germane to living under grace instead of law, was the fourth commandment--remember the Sabbath day, keep it holy, do no work, rest the seventh day. There's good reason for this omission. When God finished the work of creation He rested. When God finished the work of redemption again He rested (John 19:30). Jesus finished the work (John 17:4). He put away sin; the work of redemption was complete, and it was very good. The rest that existed from Creation to the Fall was now restored. Jesus said, "Come unto Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matt. 11:28). As Adam entered into God's rest after creation, we enter into His rest after redemption. Between these was the Law and labor. Keeping the Law never brought salvation, but it never brought rest either. Jesus is our Sabbath. The Christian worships the Lord on the first day of the week, the day Jesus rose from the dead, because that resurrection day was the day mankind again could rest in the joy of the Lord. The Sabbath pre-existed the Law and He lives again today in hearts unfettered by the Law. Resting in Him, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 570 Registered: 7-2000 |
Yes, Dennis....Jesus is our Rest. He is our Sabbath now. That is why when asked if I still "keep the Sabbath", I say that I do... and He keeps me! I explain though, that my new way of keeping the Sabbath is by holding on to Jesus and His promise of Rest through His Finished Work for me. Resting in Him every single day. I know this makes no sense to the Adventist doctrine... (Ellen White says keeping the Sabbath DAY will be the dividing wall between true and false believers!) To Adventists, although they insist it is all about Jesus, "keeping the Sabbath" means a "day", not a Person. grace always, cindy | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 361 Registered: 7-2003 |
I have to say I am fascinated to see how the SDAs I know talk out of both sides of their mouth on this issue. On one hand, the 10 Cs are the only "moral" law and the rest supposedly "written" by Moses (as though God was not it's author) was what was nailed to the tree until you point out the 10Cs 4th commandment doesn't require worship, to which they will promptly run to Leviticus 23 and say it is defined there. When you point out Leviticus calls the 7th Day Sabbath a feast day, they run back to the 10Cs and say but it's a part of God's moral law, therefore, not a feast day. What kind of circular reasoning is that? They make the statement that "there were lots of Sabbaths" and therefore the 7th Day is excluded from Col 2 and Romans 14 and Galatians, though scripture never makes such an exclusion. Then they run to Acts and point to Paul going to the Synagogue and therefore that means he was "keeping" the Sabbath when in reality he was there to point people to Christ (the real sabbath) and usually got kicked out after a few weeks. And even though there are "Sunday" churches that have services on Saturday evening (before or after sundown depending upon time of year) that still does not satisfy the sabbatarian because THEN it becomes about the state of the dead or what you eat or the remnant church. I'm coming to the conclusion it really isn't even about the Sabbath or not the Sabbath any more, but about whether you are an Adventist. And if you are not an Adventist, what you do or more importantly the motives of your heart are completely irrelevant. I realize this is a gross generalization, but that is the circular argument I've heard from SDA after SDA. ("prove the Sabbath was abolished"...."well, prove it's a sin to worship on Sunday" and round and round you go...) Though it seems to shock most SDAs I talk to, I'd never given "when" I worship a single thought until I met an SDA. I'm amazed at the amount of negativity generated by WHEN people worship, sometimes to the exclusion of WHO, though I'm equally sure they take offense by that as well. Somehow, the diapers still need to be changed, the high chair and floor still needs to be cleaned (unless you're supposed to step over the dropped food for a day...), and the meals still need to get fixed even on a "day off". And if anyone is in service at church, it's not a day of luxury then either. I am on praise team and provide tapes of the service after church. So, on the weeks I sing, I am there 45 minutes before each service for a sound check and am there after each service for tapes. That doesn't include the time I spend in rehearsals and filling orders. I watch the greeters standing at the door to help people inside "rain, sleet hail and snow". I see the people who take the screaming children from their parents and smile all the while. I see the people in the sound booth trying to make sure the proper mics are on at the right time and only noticed when it gives the untimely feedback. I see the people in the back rooms preparing communion trays for hundreds of people. I suppose there are people who come to church, take in the service, leave and go on about their day of leisure, but the idea that some get to take a day off and be served by others is odd to me. My Sundays (and now Saturday evenings) are the most hectic days of my week... Funny thing is, I wouldn't change it if I could. My "work" serves God. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 317 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dennis, thanks for sharing that paper. Kroll really addresses the issue of Sabbath preceeding the law in a helpful way. Many Adventists fall back on the argument, "I keep Sabbath because God established it at creation" as their explanation for Sabbatarianism when discussions of the relevance of the law bewcome too confusing to them. Melissa, you make such good points! The irony is that Adventists' Sabbaths are as busy as are your (our!) Sundays, but that labor doesn't bother them at all because it's allowed by their tradition. It's such an important point that Sabbath was never "changed". As the Kroll article pointed out, the resurrection made the first day so much more significant to the early church than Sabbath was because it marked the beginning of the New Covenant. Jesus was the covenant the Sabbath foreshadowed; the resurrection was the celelbration and reality that marked the beginning of the new. Interestingly, Pentecost, the birth of the church, was also on the first day. Both the reusrrection and the pouring out of the Holy Spirit on God's people happened on the first day. I'm certain that God was deliberately showing his people that the actual time was not the important thing to remember. The REAL things are the realities of the living Christ and his promised Holy Spirit. Colleen |
