| Author | Message | ||
| Debbie Registered user Username: Debbie Post Number: 54 Registered: 7-2000 |
Just a gentle reminder...I was never SDA Debbie | ||
| Kme Registered user Username: Kme Post Number: 29 Registered: 7-2000 |
Oh boy I somehow feel I'm about to jump off a bridge but here goes...Did any of you happen to watch Colonial House on PBS about 2 weeks ago? (Check your PBS station) I'm sure some of you are more familiar with our early Puritan history than I am. On this program people like you and me from all walks of life agreed to go back and live for 4 months like the people of the 17th century did who came over on the Mayflower. These people were mostly Christians. One was even a Southern Baptist minister who acted as governor of the colony. There was a Christian man who was appointed lay pastor of the colony, but in life was a professor of religious studies at a California University. There was also a family who were Not Christians. The family who wasn't Christian was forced to attend "Sabbath" which by 17th Century law was manditory for all colonials. If somebody didn't attend "Sabbath" which was on a Sunday by the way, they would be put in the stockade the first time and subsequently if disobedience ensued, they were stoned to death. I have been on the fence about all the issues discussed above, because I too was raised with an extremely dogmatic family when it comes to religious liberty. Some have even sat as members on the Counsil for Religious Freedom. As I have left my SDA roots further behind year by year I have really struggled with voting which I had never done previously because I didn't think my vote really counted. Oddly enough the 1st Presidential election I voted in,it really didn't! Ha. But we won't go there... I was raised with all the hatred of the moral majority etc.. I as a Christian believe that we as a country have denied our Lord and are paying a price for that. But lets face it, we do not live in a fair, just, God fearing perfect world. There are a lot of evil self-serving people who are into the big $$$ and that's all they care about. There are powers that be that most of us commoners do not know about or understand. This earth is Satan's domain. As with so much, the very things we want to protect we seem to destroy in the process. As Christians we want our kids to be able to pray in school. As democratic citizens, we want freedom to make our own moral decisions of who we worship and when. Clearly, there was great religious persecution of those early settlers who came to this country for religious liberty! Only God knows who is going to usher in the events that will ultimately wind this sick earth up! We surely shouldn't be presumtious enough to try to out smart and second guess God's plan. That's where the SDA church goofed up to start with. When it's time for things to take place they will happen without any of us forcing it or stopping it. We as SDA's have been warped! I grew up playing the time of trouble with Barbie Dolls for goodness sake! Strong doses of it here. Ultimately, I don't want anyone telling me that I have to be in church anytime anywhere! I had enough of that in boarding school! State trying to force morality never worked! It was something that made only those who enforced it feel better. But, fair is fair. If Christians can't pray in school then neither should we have to hear a Muslim call to prayer-ANYWHERE-. Hello... Jesus said we will persecuted for HIS NAMES SAKE ie, Christians. We are after all in the minority as far as religious groups go. I think I heard as little as 1/3 of the Earth is Christian. I don't feel we have true religious freedom now, but I wonder if we ever really did! This is for a season, things are heating up and it's going to get worse before it gets better. Vote your concience and don't be so naive to believe what appears to be, really is! Furthur more, I really can't understand why Adventists talk about how much they can't wait till Jesus comes, yet do everything they can to try to stop what they believe to be prophesied end-time events. Unless, of course it's because they are scared for their own Salvation. Does it make any sense to you? I'm really sick of everything that happens from weather to politics being tied somehow to end-time prophecy by SDA's. Everyone, believes we're in the last period of Earth as we know it. Everyone! Kme | ||
| Debbie Registered user Username: Debbie Post Number: 55 Registered: 7-2000 |
Kme, You have such a sweet way about you!  Yes, I believe freedom is VERY important! That is a very key point, which, perhaps I forgot to mention, and which is really what ticks me off about the ACLU... They are supposed to be about freedom, but everytime I turn around it seems like they are trying to get something that represents/symbolizes the one true God removed, banned or censored from a public place. I definitely don't believe we should force Jesus on anyone, but it also upsets me to see some people working so hard to make Him scarce and unavailable to people (not that anything can stop Him from reaching us, since HE's omniscient anyway)--does that make sense??? | ||
| Kme Registered user Username: Kme Post Number: 30 Registered: 7-2000 |
Yes, it does make sense. I too get frustrated with anything political. That's what it is, is politics. It's just like the judge in Alabama a couple of years ago refusing to take down the Ten Commandments from the wall in the courthouse. I can't remember what finally came of that fight. I don't begin to know what the answer is to this. I haven't the background or knowledge to know. But, I do know that it appears that as we move into the future we as Christians are going to lose more and more of our religious rights if you will, while in the name of being "fair" to non-Christians, they are gaining them. While all this talk about not persecuting people who are Muslim for what happened on 911 is all fine and good, (I know that the masses are not responsible), but what about the ones who are preaching that we are the infidels because we are Christian! They are asking that their people declair war against us and that the men take our women and convert them to islam and kill our men! If we as women don't convert then we are to be killed also. I think that it really is more black & white then we as a Democratic society really are comfortable admitting. If this continues, I expect it's going to get pretty scary. About a year ago, I heard that Muslim or Islam was the fastest growing religion and about 2/3 of non-Christians were Muslim. Then the other day I heard that Budhism was the fasted growing religion. At any rate, we ARE the minority. I wish SDA's could open their eyes and realize that it's more likley they will be persecuted for Jesus' name sake as it says in the Bible than for worshiping on the Sabbath, or by former SDA's, like EGW says! They are so blinded by Catholic history that they can't see anything else. I'm not in agreement with Catholic theology, but historically, the Christians were persecuted before Constantine became one. I know that a lot of people don't believe Catholics are Christians, but Catholics do believe that Jesus is their Saviour. Doesn't that make them Christians too? We have a big group of people missing the boat here! Jews keep the Sabbath better than any SDA and they don't believe in Jesus!!! Hello...are they going to be persecuted for nothing? Or could it just be that it's not about the Sabbath it's about Jesus! Just food for thought for anyone willing to contemplate it. | ||
| Debbie Registered user Username: Debbie Post Number: 56 Registered: 7-2000 |
Kme, Yes, people have always been persecuted for believing in the true God of the bible, even in old testament times. For example, I think about how the Jews were kept as slaves in Egypt, and that Pharoah's initial reaction to Moses requesting that they be set free so that they can worship their God in the desert. (Exodus 5:1) Pharoah, first of all, responds in verse 2, by saying, "Who is the Lord, that I should obey him and let Israel Go? I do not know the Lord and I will not let Israel go." He then responds by making the work of the Israelite slaves even harder by forcing them to get their own straw for making bricks, where previously they had been provided the straw. (vv. 4-11) Of course, the people, being human, couldn't see that God was still in control, he was only being long-suffering (which is good thing for us to remember when we look at the world today, and it seems like God is nowhere, because most of our leaders and those in control are denying God and are not willing to listen to him). Because we know how it turned out for the Israelites...Eventually the Israelites were set free. And because we know that he will never leave us or forsake us (Hebrews 13:5) There is another VERY big reason why I have brought this story up. I have learned in bible studies (not in SDA churches) in Exodus, that the plagues the Lord sent were directed at the false gods and goddesses of Egypt. So, in other words, one by one, the Lord was targetting individually of the gods/goddesses that the Egyptians worshipped. It's hard for some to believe, but people do actually worship gods/goddesses of frogs, gnats, flies, and EVEN fruit (Like the goddess of Pomona, which apparently represented a goddess of fruit). Now why do you think someone would erect a goddess of fruit?? I have an explanation...In a <sadly vain> attempt to bring about a rich harvest year after year. Another thing I would like to mention since we are on the subject of giving people food for thought...Rome is Babylon only in a figurative sense historically. However, the literal Babylon is in Iraq. And before Saddam Hussein came to ruin, he was attempting to rebuild this historical monument and mother of all false religions (not just the author of the so-called false day of worship). Many of the most solid (non-SDA) biblical scholars today (and yesterday as well) believe the bible predicts that the true Babylon (as in Babylon, Iraq) will be built up in the last days. In fact, one of my sources says that the UN has recently discussed the possibility of moving to Babylon! So, Kme, the stuff you were mentioning about Islam?? It's even more significant than you may even realize. As far as who and where the true Christians are...The bottom line, according to the bible is: If you confess <with sincerity> with mouth, 'Jesus is Lord' and believe in your heart that God raised in him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:90) God Bless You, Debbie | ||
| Kme Registered user Username: Kme Post Number: 33 Registered: 7-2000 |
Debbie Wow, that is really something about the U.N. possibly moving to Babylon/Iraq. I also have seen a documentary on A&E or something like that about Saddam trying to rebuild Babylon. This brings up an interesting spin on what is going on with this war too. Someone told me that George W. wanted to get a foothold so as to help rebuild the Jewish Temple in Israel. I'm sure it is probably all tied together somehow... Very interesting. Well, if you read the Left Behind Series, that was also the case in those books which is based on belief in the Rapture etc... Has anyone here really done a thourough (sp?) study on the Rapture? I'd be curious to know. My sister now believes in it. But other than reading the Left Behind books I've really not studied about it. It was funny to me a couple of years ago when that was all stirred up because of the Left Behind books. SDA's were sending out books to combat it all over the place. The thing is, they have their own book based on their belief about last-day events. It's called Project Sonlight or Sunlight, I'm not sure which. It's purely fiction as well. Enjoying conversing with you Debbie. Kme | ||
| Debbie Registered user Username: Debbie Post Number: 57 Registered: 7-2000 |
Kme, I just did a web search under "UN and Babylon" and got this match: http://www.apfn.net/messageboard/01-14-04/discussion.cgi.82.html laura wilbert The U.N. and Babylon Tue Jan 13 02:38:36 2004 64.140.158.41 source: http://www.israeltoday.co.il/headlines/headlines.asp?CatID=2&ArticleID=894 The U.N. and Babylon The UN Security Council imposes sanctions on states that donít observe its resolutions, but the renegade states arenít worried; there are a myriad of ways to circumvent the sanctions. Representatives of the 191 member states of the UN General Assembly give lofty speeches but know theyíll accomplish little or nothing. When Israelís ambassador steps up to the podium, many of the delegates leave the hall; they have no interest in listening to the ìother side.î After World War I, in which some 10 million lives were lost, the nations of the world created an international body to ensure world peace. In 1920, 32 member states founded the League of Nations. In 1926, Germany was accepted into the League, but when Hitler rose to power in 1933, Germany withdrew, clearing the way for his dictatorship and the proliferation of his war machine. The League of Nations proved to be a paper tiger that could not prevent World War II, which cost more than 55 million lives. On June 26, 1945, in San Francisco, 51nations came together to create the United Nations as the successor of the League of Nations. In an attempt to address the Leagueís failure, the UN was given more authority. But itís clear that the UN is also a paper tiger: 21of the 191 member nations are at war, and the UN is unable to do anything to end the hostilities. The United Statesí unilateral initiative to launch the Iraq war without a UN mandate is the most recent example of the UNís impotence. Today, the nations of the world want to empower the UN by reorganizing it. No longer would it function merely as an observer; it would become a global police force, imposing order militarily. UN headquarters sit on 4.5 acres in Manhattan. Its 23,000 employees work in crowded conditions. But thereís little possibility for expansion because the US has been less than enamored with the UN for years and would probably like nothing better than for it to leave New York. Triggered by the Iraq War, informed sources say that the international Quartet of world powers (the US, UN, European Union and Russia) has drafted a proposal to transfer the seat of the United Nations to Baghdad (ancient Babel or Babylon)! The move would relieve the space constraints of the New York headquarters, while also freeing it from the physical jurisdiction of the US. Though itís only a draft of the Quartet, plans appear to be in the works to establish a third and perhaps final worldwide organization. more in israel today from December 2003 ----------------------------------------------- Kind of spooky, huh? Anyway, I have read all of the Left Behind books. In fact, I just finished reading "Glorious Appearing" a few days ago (the latest release in the series). I believe these books are very well written. Dr. Tim LaHaye is a prophecy expert who not only has been researching biblical prophecy for many years, but he and his brother are both involved with strong creation-based science organization. So in addition to prophecy, he also has PhD level scientists, biblical scholars, archaelogical, and other experts whom he uses as consultants to write his books. And I know for a fact that he is not limited by denomination (though, he is definitely protestant). (You may ask how I know this--I am and have been a student at this creation-based organization for 8 years. They are very small and humble,less than 30 employees, but very influential. Check out website: www.icr.org) If any of you are cringing at the very thought of studying prophecy, I know how you feel. I said I was never SDA. However, my former family was. And my former father-n-law claimed to no longer be SDA, but he was a Rapture datesetter. So by the time I got out of my previous marriage, I was so turned off by prophecy, I didn't trust anybody who taught prophecy--In fact I think I made a sub-conscious mental connection between "prophecy scholar" and "wacko". The very mention of the word "prophecy" gave me the "heeby-jeebies" and would practically send me running for cover, and would leave me shaking in my boots in anger/fear. It was just so ironic for me to realize that SDAs are obsessed with prophecy. I mean I always knew they didn't believe in the rapture. But I just never made the connection between my ex n-law's bizarre behavior and his upbringing. He spent a lot of his time focusing on trying to convince the SDAs that his dates were true. And of course most of them wouldn't listen to him because he was talking about the rapture (I realize now THAT'S why, but I didn't realize it then!) the one's who listened only listened because they weren't making the distinction between second coming and rapture. I've always believed in the rapture. I've always believed that the bible supports it. However, the issue that I was always going around and around with my ex n-law was regarding "no man knows the time or the hour." He thought he could figure it out. And he tried YEAR after YEAR after YEAR after YEAR for over 10 YEARS!!!!! (And if you didn't accept his dates, that made you a scoffer) Fortunately God is Sooo Good! So within a couple of years of leaving the marriage, the walls started coming down, and I was able to start studying prophecy again. We had a basic bible study on the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming in Church about a year and half ago. Here are the verses that specifically mention the Rapture, in case you're interested: 1 Thess 4:16,17; 1 Cor. 15:51, John 14:3; Luke 21:36, 1 Thess 5:2,9 And the verses that deal with the second coming: Zech 14:4; 1 Thes. 3:13; Rev 20:4; Zech 14:4; Rev 20:4; Rev 20:6; Zech 14:2-3; Rev 19:11-15; Matt 24:29-31; Matt 24:4-44; Rev 1:7 This study was done at Harvest Christian Fellowship. So you could also get it there if you wanted. That way, you could study it yourself. (Bible only with Holy Spirit to illuminate you--how refreshing, huh?) Their website address is: www.harvest.org Debbie | ||
| Dennisrainwater Registered user Username: Dennisrainwater Post Number: 90 Registered: 8-2000 |
Warning to those who dislike long posts: This will be one of those! ;-) Debbie and Kme, I am enjoying your conversation -- you both make some excellent points! On another note, I agree that the ACLU is terribly misunderstood -- much the same as Hitler's Nazi party was misunderstood: While I admit that this is a somewhat extreme comparison, I believe there are some similarities worth noting here... A majority of the 1930s' Germans misunderstood the real intent of the Nazis' agenda, and because of the parts of it that seemed to advance things that would be personally good for them, they endorsed the movement, and voted Hitler into power. Similarly, I see the ACLU as an evil force who is endorsed by many good-hearted, well-intentioned Americans because it OSTENSIBLY advances ideologies and purposes that ought to be good for all of us. However, instead of being a force for our good and for our general freedom, they have evolved into a powerful force whose primary purpose is that of eradicating God and all things Christian from our National landscape. If something appears in the public square that is in any way Christian in nature, they are johnny-on-the-spot to erase it. But they seldom, if ever, muster the same passion against anything that is genuinely harmful, but likewise "religious" in nature... Islam is a frightening example... Kme, I would not grant undue credibility to PBS and that program they aired. While there are certainly some ghastly and sad examples of Christians persecuting non-Christians in our history, I don't believe it is fair (based on my study of history) to CHARACTERIZE us that way. PBS has all-to-frequently proven an anti-Christian bias in the past -- and while that specific example may, in fact, be true, I do not believe it represents a completely balanced perspective of our Christian heritage in this great nation. A dear friend, who is a non-SDA pastor, sent me an e-mail today that touches on how fervently our founders believed Christian principles and beliefs were to the safety and longevity of our then-fledgling nation. I will quote a small portion of that e-mail here: DID YOU KNOW? While it is true that we should not be a nation who persecutes those among us who are not Christian, it is also arguable that we were indeed, contrary to most contemporary thought, founded as a Christian nation! And it is certain that under the period during which our nation enjoyed a largely Christian leadership (or, at least a leadership guided by Christian principles), even those among our citizenry who did not identify themselves as Christians experienced a greater degree of general and religious freedom (or, non-religious freedom, if you like) than has any people-group ever to populate the planet! As Christian citizens of this Republic which was SPECIFICALLY founded to grant and protect the rights of freedom of worship, and the right to live RIGHTEOUSLY, while at the same time, LAWFULLY, I believe we have some profound responsibilities in the course of perserving those liberties. I also find the strange and bizarre phobias the National Sunday Law engenders in SDAs down-right haunting. I recently had a conversation with some dear SDA friends of mine about our civic responsibilities in this light. It was prompted by a plea I forwarded from James Dobson to several of my friends which was seeking our help in stopping the ever-advancing homosexual agenda, and specifically their current asault upon the traditional definition of marriage. My friends' reply to that chilled me: Clearly, their fear of imminent National Sunday Law legislation has warped their view of our rights and privilages -- indeed, our RESPONSIBILITIES as American citizens, who still believe in the principles of a moral foundation of Law. I will copy that conversation below, with their words in blue. Let's call my friends "John" and "Mary"... This particular discussion pits the efforts of the gay-rights lobby against our call to be responsible Christian citizens. However, it is not my point here to open the discussion of gay-rights on this thread -- but rather to underscore the sad ends to which SDAs will go to avoid doing anything which might serve to usher in the National Sunday Law. And also, to offer my views on what I think our civic obligations are, as Christians, in a nation whose very founding was carefully crafted so that we could have a voice in preserving our rights to live AS CHRISTIANS. Subject: Re: Fw: Your Help Needed to Protect Marriage I'm sorry this was so long. I'll try hard not to be so long-winded next time -- I promise! ;-) A proud American, and a most grateful Christian, Den <>< | ||
| Kme Registered user Username: Kme Post Number: 35 Registered: 7-2000 |
Dennis, I just wrote what I thought to be a good post in response to what you wrote above. Maybe it was not supposed to be posted because I accidently erased it! I'm too tired to write it again right now. But I will try to later. There are a couple of things I want to look up in the Bible first anyway. Also, I think I didn't make clear my point about Colonial House and our early Puritan roots. Colleen, are we free to discuss our Christian based views and politics regarding homosexuality on this website? Just don't want to venture beyond the scope and get into trouble. Have a blessed day everyone. Kme | ||
| Debbie Registered user Username: Debbie Post Number: 58 Registered: 7-2000 |
Kme, I've had full blown bible studies erased while I was working on them on-line! How frustrating! I still take chances now and again, though usually I try to copy and save as I go or do the work in a word processing program. Just because it's erased doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't meant to be posted...It means I need to be more careful next time!!! Just my opinion. I'm not Colleen, but you always have posted in love on this website so far. So I find it hard to believe that you would post anything that is inappropriate. Debbie | ||
| Debbie Registered user Username: Debbie Post Number: 61 Registered: 7-2000 |
Dennis, By the way, I loved your comparison between the ACLU and the Nazis! I think it really drives the point home, however unfortunate and heartbreaking it may be. Debbie | ||
| Kme Registered user Username: Kme Post Number: 40 Registered: 7-2000 |
Thanks Debbie, you're very sweet! I thought later yesterday that maybe it was supposed to be read and "another spirit" was trying to keep it from being posted. Ha. Guess it's all in how you look at it. Regarding the issue of Colonial House. I did not think that they were trying to portray any particular view point Christian or non-Christian. They were simply, showing 17th Century law applied with 21st Century people. Of course in watching these people trying to enforce such laws as church attendance at a 3-5 hour Christian service on their only day off from hard work (they weren't allowed to do any unecessary work on the Sabbath) raised emotion and compassion in my heart for the non-Christians who felt offended by the content of the services, such as praying to a God they didn't believe in etc...After all I am a 20th cenury gal! There was one family of three who were non-Christian,and a couple of single people I believe. They knew though, when they accepted invitation to participate in the experiment that this was the practice of the early Colonial settlers. But, being faced with it week to week brought out some rebellious feelings that I'm sure were not uncommon back in that period, as the narrator made clear that not all who came over were here for Christian freedoms. They took the punishment of being tied to a stake for 2 hours in the field (their were no stockades built). Later the appointed Governor declaired that they would not enforce this law because he felt personally responsible for the possibility of keeping someone from eternal life by the damage of these feelings (he being a Southern Baptist minister in real life). Of course, then there were other people who were upset that he wasn't enforcing this law, so they protested the women wearing head coverings! And so it went on and on. Very interesting, the total project aired for about 6-8 hours on PBS. They have also done these experiment with other times periods in history such as the Victorian, called Manor House and 1883 (not sure about that exact date) called Frontier House. Watch them if you get a chance. The tapes can also be purchased from PBS.org I believe. Now, on this other subject that Dennis wrote about above regarding homosexual marriage. I'm expressing my view point only. I have not kept up with the news lately because I became so sickened seeing naked Iraqi prisoners after weeks of seeing same sex couples kissing on courthouse steps all over the country! I thought I would take a news break for a while. I'm glad I don't work in the news field and I'm at liberty to do that! Dennis, I feel your points are valid and I applaud you for acting on them. I am going to quote a cliche' here: You have to love the sinner and hate the sin! I bet that will stir some emotion on both sides but I believe that's our duty as Christians. I also believe we have no business trying to keep the gay & lesbian population from attending our churches which has been an issue in this area I understand. However, having said that, I don't believe they should be granted membership into churches that stand on Christian principles. And there are some out there who don't stand on Christian principles. I believe the Institution of marriage has been all through history considered an Insitution of God in heaven. Although, I don't think that it is actually named in the Bible as marriage. (That's what I was going to look up and haven't). Please somebody, correct me if I'm wrong. Having said that I do however, believe that it is appropriate for legal purposes such as hospital rights and death benefits for there to be some type of legal contract call it something other than marriage, for people who are in a committed relationship and want their partner to have those legal rights. They claim that is what they are after. However, I believe it is something more than that and we are going to be constantly bombarded with television images of gay & lesbian relationships and all that goes with it as they feel more and more accepted. The Bible says that there are sins of abomination and that is one of them. We all know that men & women were created to fit together in every way for the purpose of companionship, pro-creation and the raising of our children. Without heterosexual people, this earth would be unpopulated! Homosexual behaviour was specifically mentioned in the biblical story of Sodom & Gomara as one of the reasons God destroyed it. There is much wickedness on this earth and we are exposed to it much more now through technology. God won't allow this to go on forever, but in the meantime, we as Christians must take the same approach to this sin as to all others. I know that the gay & lesbian population doesn't like to hear that. No one likes to be called, on a pet sin. But never-the-less it is. I believe that there are medical reasons in some cases for the propensity of this. Doesn't make it right, or maybe it does. Moreover, it doesn't account for the rest whom I believe are recreational homosexuals. God is the ultimate judge and he knows why some people do what they do. I do not. But to discriminate to the point of not allowing them to attend our churches or treating them venoumously and as sub-humans is not right. Church is for sinners and none of us are without sin. Our children are learning about this lifestyle everywhere else. Shouldn't they learn from us the truth about this? They are learning about people living together before marriage and having sex before marriage from everywhere else. Shouldn't they learn the pitfalls and dangers of that from us as parents and Christians? One last point- Our kids are much more influenced by our values and teachings as parents than by the laws in this land. Someone recently told me that there was a law before congress to make it illegal to teach from the Bible the Christian view point of Homesexuality. They were asking me to write my congressman to protest it because the next thing to come would be a law making it illegal to teach anything from the Bible. My response was I'm not really worried about that happening. Maybe that's wrong. But no-one can keep us from passing our values and beliefs on to our children as long as they are with us. Yes it would be a tradgy for a law like that to be passed and I hope there are people like you Dennis who will fight it. But my point was basically, everything doesn't lead to the passing of Sunday laws and God will preserve His Word for as long as need be until prophecy is fulfilled. I pre-apologize if I have offended anyone. It is not meant to offend, but just to express my view point for whatever that is worth. Sorry for the length of this post. Have a blessed day. Kme | ||
| Kme Registered user Username: Kme Post Number: 41 Registered: 7-2000 |
Addendum: I also think that the population I was speaking about above should give us as Christians and those that it is offensive to, the same respect and not get in our faces with their behaviour. Colleen, I didn't wait for your guidance on this subject. Please remove if you believe you should. Thanks. Kme | ||
| Kme Registered user Username: Kme Post Number: 44 Registered: 7-2000 |
Another Addendum: I just found this subject on another newly activated thread. I haven't read through them all. So I guess this subject is not beyond the scope of this website. Kme | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 337 Registered: 7-2003 |
Thoughts on Colonial House: I enjoyed the PBS series ìColonial Houseî, but need to be up front about the fact that it really amounts to a highbrow ìSurvivorî game. Of course, in PBS parlance, itís not a ìgameî itís a project. Nonetheless, PBS stocked the reality show with personalities they were sure would clash. The producers chose a very conservative Southern Baptist minister from Texas (Jeff) to be the governor and required him to enforce 16th century Puritan law on his subjects as the criteria for a successful evaluation of the colony. They then gave him a self-described ìvery-liberalî academic theologian for the colony pastor, a fellow Southern Baptist who was a practicing homosexual, and an atheist family who refused to play by the rules of the game as a matter of conscience. One of the laws that Jeff was required to enforce was strict Sunday Sabbath observance. Interestingly enough, the producers at one point tried to make it sound as if this was his idea although it became very apparent that it was merely the rules of the game and the criteria by which the colonist would be judged in the final evaluation. I interpreted this as an attempt by the producers to paint ìfundamentalistî Christians as oppressive. I was very proud of Jeff when he agonized over the fact that playing by these rules may well turn the non-Christians away from the Gospel forever and that was a price to high to pay. I was even more proud when he eventually refused to enforce the Sabbath law stating that doing so was fundamentally opposed to the Gospel. The colony ended up being judged rather harshly on this point in the final assessment because it was not true to life for the 16th century. Regardless, I still feel Jeff represented evangelical Christians well in his stance on this. In the end he noted that the Puritans came to America seeking religious freedom, but ended up imposing their own persecution on others. This thought does give me pause to be sure. It is sometime difficult to see where a Christianís duty to work for the betterment of society begins and where it ends. Definitely something to consider. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 279 Registered: 12-2003 |
As I mentioned above, we were out of town for a few days. Of course you can express your veiws as long as the discussion doesn't degenerate into futile arguing and disrespect! Christ is our center! Colleen | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 91 Registered: 10-2001 |
I don't pay a lot of attention usually when people say they had a word from God but this really got my attention, let me know what you all think, I sent it to some of you already. This is from a worship leader who shared it on the Worthy Boards: Quote: The Lord gave me this in the late 90s and I've only shared it with a few but now, after much prayer, I believe that it is time for me to share it more openly. . . . . America.....America...The beautiful land. In your youth the nations of the world glorified me in saying, "She is great because she has not forsaken the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. She has proclaimed the blood of Jesus to the world and God has raised up a mighty people. Her streets are clothed with righteousness. Her belly is full of the Lord. Who can make war against her? For surely the arm of the Lord God, the Father of light, creator of all the earth has kept her and held back her shore. Has fought for her in the hour of threat and blessed her and made her great. Let us make peace with her, lest we be consumed". Soon they will say, "who is she that we should fear? Has she not rejected her God that made her great? Her streets are clothed with shame, her belly is full of herself. Where is her beauty? Where is her splendor? Will God fight for such a wicked people? Her glory is gone. Her camp is in confussion. She does not know where she is going. Oh how the mighty land has fallen. For she is divided. Let us make war against her. Because of her vanity, she sees us not". This is what the Lord says, You were an oppressed people. You cried unto me and I heard. You said "give us peace" and I did. You said "Give us wealth so we may proclaim your word without oppression" and I did. You said "this nation is set aside for the Lord" and I blessed you. For it was my will to make you great. But now I am about to reject you. And you say "Why will you reject us? Is it because of abortion"? I, the Lord, tell you no! "Is it because of politicians? Moral decay"? No! It is because you have rejected me. You will say "How have we rejected you"? You have rejected my word. You have said in your heart "Let us mold and shape God's word into a sword of our lust" You say "There is no condemnation, my conscience is clear". But I tell you, It has been seared. Is my word a piece of clay that it can be molded? Or a piece of steel, that it can be bent? Am I not the God who has said, "I am the potter, you are the clay'? You are as it is written, "Lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God" You have cursed those who have stoned the prophets of old. You have said "Why wouldn't the people listen and repent"? But I tell you, You do the same. For I have sent men to preach against sin, and call all to repentance. But you have rejected and mocked those I have sent. You have stoned them publicly and cried out "Give us teachers who will satisfy us". So they have taught you delusions and things of demons. They have taught my grace is a license to sin. They deny the power in the Blood of the Lamb to destroy sin in sinful man. And you have received them and their teaching. And it satisfied you. You say " I have the peace! I have the peace!" But I tell you it is only temporary. For I have said, "here, take my yoke upon you" But you have said "The way of God is hard" Am I a man that I should lie? The sin of this nation has come up before me. You have rejected to be governed by righteousness, so I will send you a government that will rule you with tyrany and injustice. My anger will not be turned back! But for the sake of the elect, those my children who repent and turn back to me, I will not totally consume you. I will extend my hand of mercy more so than ever before but few will receive it and most will reject it because it will not please the flesh. Your minds are full of myths and fables. You cannot see or hear. You do not even know what is real or fantasy. You say "What shall we do? This is what the Lord says...Lay down your idols and repent. Seek me now while I may be found. I am not a God that wants to destroy you. But you have rejected life. You are about to trotten under foot the Blood of the Lamb. Hear the word of the Lord! You say "God would not let anything happen to us. He is a God of love". It is my mercy that allows tribulation but you lack understanding. I have proven my love but you look for it in the wrong places. My thoughts are not you thoughts nor my ways your ways. Stop saying " How do we know the mind of God?" For it is written " If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask God that giveth to all liberally and unbraideth not and it shall be given to him" For I, The Lord reveal to any who truly seek me. I love you says the Lord, But I will pour out my wrath. I am merciful but I am also the God that judges. My word is complete, but you have chosen only to eat the pieces that please you. Am I divided? By no means! I, the Lord am one. My word is one. I and my word are one. Wake up oh sleeper, for the fulfillment of my word is at hand. Be watchful, repent and hear! Says the Lord! I want to tell ya that I don't consider myself a prophet. I'm just a praise leader, a husband and Dad. I use to deliver car parts and I was by myself in a truck all day. It was an awesome time, I would praise God all day. I didn't make alot of money but I was really being built up. To give you the exact year the Lord gave this to me, I'm gonna have to go back to my old check stubs. My wife seems to think it was 96 or 97. Since then I've been a praise leader in 3 different churches and 4 jobs, my memory of exact times is off a little. Ok, One day I was worshiping and God just spoke to my heart. He told me to pull over because he was going to tell me something. I did..he told me to write down what he was telling me. That day, he only gave me the 1st part of it. The part of "they said" and "they will say". A few days later, he gave me more. Then a few days later he gave me the rest. After this, I took my little peices of paper to my Mom to type it out for me because I didn't have a type writer or a computer and I felt led to have it typed. Over the next few months, I only let a few people read it. I let my Pastor at the time read it and my family. I gave them all a copy and I told them that if they felt led to give it to someone else, then do it. My Mom gave it to a preacher in Kentucky and he read it to his congregation and made copies. A couple of years later I gave a copy to my nephew Joshua, who is a missionary in China now. He gave it to a bunch of his friends on the internet. Then I gave it to a prophet, who uses his prophetic gift in song. He just said whoa! I haven't seen him since then and I can't think of his name right now. Anyway, I gave it to a few and I don't know what people have done with it. It ain;t about me getting credit or anything like. God knows my heart. I just thouught, if I'm gonna put this prophecy on worthy message board, then I better tell ya'll where it came from. I'm gonna post again in this thread to tell ya some of the things God has shown me concerning the prophecy. In his love, Brian When I received this prophecy, I sought God on a few things that bothered me, that shook me and things that broke my heart. "Why will you reject us? Is because of abortion? I the Lord, tell you no" I prayed and asked God, I know you hate abortion, what's up with that. God said I do hate abortion but abortion, moral decay and bad politicians are just fruits of the real problem which is a nation rejecting her God they use to cry out to. "The sin of this nation has come up before me. You have rejected to be governed by righteousness, so I will send you a government that will rule you with tyrany and injustice. My anger will not be turned back." This broke my heart. I thought to myself, I have kids...and I want them to grow up in a calm neighborhood, playing baseball, going to school, learning a good trade, being successful in life, having kids of their own and so on. "THE American Dream" Then I cried out to God....LORD I'm the same way..I am also part of that group...I repented....God, we have taken our eyes from you and just pursued our own will. Even me, a Christian. It 's not wrong to desire these things, what's wrong is so many of us have forsaken his will for ours. Then I was crying out..Lord, your anger won't be turned back? Even if we seek you. Basically, God said...it's a done deal (not in those words_) But then he showed me that these things (judgment) happen to save our souls because he loves us. But GOD, I thought it was your goodness that leads us to repentance!!!? But then he refered me to another part of the prophecy that says....."IT IS MY MERCY THAT ALLOWS TRIBULATION BUT YOU LACK UNDERSTANDING" Father, give us wisdom, knowledge and understanding. Open up the eyes of our hearts. PLANT YOUR WORD DEEP INSIDE US SO WE WILL NOT SIN AGAINST YOU. Lead us by your Spirit. I also asked God when will these things happen. He said "You will see it with your own eyes" God where is the hope in all this. "The hope is that I will receive those who repent and restore my peace and my joy in them abuntdantly" The Lord showed me that the church has been stuck in Romans ch7 for to long and we have used Romans 8:1 to justify our actions in ch7. This is not what was intended. "You have said in your heart "let us mold and shape God's word into a sword of our lust" You say "There is no condemnation, my conscience is clear" Romans8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, Who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" Ya see, so many live in sin and say........."every time I want to do good evil is right there.........Paul struggled just like me because he said it in ch7 and the 1st verse in 8 says it's alright because there is no condemnation" This is a strong lie that many in the church have embraced. They have shaped it into a license to sin. Paul was simply saying that without Christ, we can want to do good but can't because we are under the Law of sin and death. The verse that Paul tells us we are free is 8:2-4 "For the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ hath made me free from the law of sin and death.3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, GOD sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, CONDEMNED SIN IN THE FLESH. 4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit" There are 3 laws at work here; The law of sin and death; The written law' and The law of the Spirit of Life; The written law showed us that we were under the law of sin and death but the law of the Spirit of Life crushed the law of sin and death. That's why we are now able to walk in "The fruit of the Spirit" End Quote | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 323 Registered: 1-2003 |
Sabra...what do you make of this? Are we under Law and Grace at the same time???? Sounds like SDA thinking. It is hard for me to process. | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 93 Registered: 10-2001 |
I don't see it that way. He tries to clarify at the end that the written law showed us were were doomed but the law of the Spirit crushed it and we are able to walk in the Spirit now, so we should be instead of being Laodicea. That's what I got. Grace is sometimes preached in a way that whatever, we are covered so it doesn't matter. It does matter because our light goes out and we are of no more use to the lost. Lately I have really heard a call to repentance and holiness in preachers. I'm afraid without it, America wont continue to stand. | ||
| Debbie Registered user Username: Debbie Post Number: 67 Registered: 7-2000 |
Sabra, I agree with you that this is not SDA thinking. However, I can see how it would be very confusing and even scary for someone coming out of Adventism. When I read your post two days ago, I could discern very clearly that the words of this man came from the Lord. We are called to measure everything by the Bible (and not the other way around as SDAs are used to doing). Of course, after years of indoctrination, this takes time to get used to. Not to mention the fact that God very rarely gives this type of word to a person, and he does it for his glory, and a specific reason--for example to warn his people. As many of us are already painfully aware, going back to the law is not the answer. And I don't believe that is the emphasis of the above words of wisdom. I believe the emphasis he is intending is that if a person is a believer and has been neglecting the Word of God and/or has been living in sin, they need to repent (it always starts with God's people). Of course, if we are to include the Adventists among those who are God's people, we know many of them they need to repent as well. For they are much like the Pharisees--little more than whitewashed tombs; clean on the outside, but full of dead men's bones. At any rate, Sabra, I actually printed the words out so that I could thoughtfully respond, and provide specific bible verses that show how right on this guy is biblically. I haven't had a chance to look up the supporting bible verses yet. However, here are a couple. As all of us are painfully aware, our nation HAS been increasingly stripping itself of anything that has to do with the true God of the bible. I believe it is because there are more and more people who are offended by what God in His word has to say to them. Take the ten commandments that were recently removed in Alabama for example. I know alot of Christians were bothered by this. Although some of us were bothered for different reasons. For example we realize that the ten commandments don't help us to be better Christians. However, the removal of the ten commandments was SYMBOLIC of what is happening in our society. People are increasingly offended by anything that reminds them of their sinfulness (which is what the law was given for--to make us aware of our need for a savior). In 2 Timothy 3:1-5, we are warned that in the last days, this will occur: "But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God--having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them." (They will be all of these things, and they will not want the 10 commandments posted ANYWHERE reminding them that what they are doing is wrong!) Also, the bible warns us about how people will gather around them teachers who say only what they want to hear, having "itching ears." 2 Timothy 4:1-4: "In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry." The 10 commandments no longer apply to us as Christians, but as Colleen had mentioned in a recent "Proclamation" they still have a purpose. Those who have not been redeemed are under law UNLESS they come to Christ. But our country has been so successful at removing any reminder of what sin even is, that unless we do something drastic really soon, God's judgment is imminent. I have been hearing the same call to "repentance and holiness." God Bless You Debbie |
