| Author | Message | ||
| Jenntooth Registered user Username: Jenntooth Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2004 |
I've seen a couple of posts about tithing here and am wondering what some of your churches teach on the issue. Our church states that it does not need our money because God takes care of His church but the tithing principle is part of God's desire for us. Everything we have is God's and He asks only 10% in return. We have recently given our finances up to God and are struggling to pay tithe each week. Should we just give as God directs as Melissa talked about or stick to the 10% guideline? I can feel the old SDA legalism creeping back in when I calculate my tithe check down to the last cent! Any thoughts? | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 111 Registered: 3-2004 |
This past Sunday that pastor talked about what the church is planning to do in the next year and told the congregation how much money will be needed. He said nothing about tithes or offerings, just said how much would be needed. I will pray about how much God wants me to give. He knows my finances and what I have been through this past year. So, Jenntooth, pray about it, a lot. Tell God what you finances are. He will let you know what he wants from you. The way I see it is, if you feel the old SDA legalism creeping in, it is not what God wants. God is not like that, as you have found out. God knows how much you can give and I am sure he will let you know and me know how much we should give. I have to tell all of you how God has blessed me. I got fired from a job last September. In October I started working part time doing home health. God has blessed me. I work home health and work at the hospital when they need me. together I make a full time income, but not as much as I was making before. But I am bringing home more than I was before. I work for the same organization with the home health and the prn work. When my home health patient load is down, I get called to work at the hospital. That is what happened this week. I have only 1-2 patients on my home health case load and the OT at the hospital called me and asked if I could give them some time every day this week. Like I said, God does provide. Praise Him. God is truly awesome. Diana | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 87 Registered: 4-2000 |
Jenntooth, There never was a MONETARY tithe under the Old Covenant. The various tithing codes only applied to increases from one's crops and animals. Interestingly, a large segment of the Hebrew people never paid any tithe at all. Was a hired hand required to tithe on his salary? Not at all! There was no law that required a tenth of one's salary to be tithed (which was earned for services rendered). Only the crops and animals of those who owned them were subject to the tithe. After all, the crops and the animals did not belong to the hired hand and only the increase from one's land or animals was subject to the tithe. And note this. Fishermen did not tithe, though this industry is mentioned in the law (Lev. 11:9-12). Likewise, the mining industry is referred to (Deut. 8:9), but the tithe of minerals extracted from the earth was never called for. The lumber business is mentioned (1 Kings 5:7-12) and construction work on buildings (1 Kings 5:13-18) but tithes were not extracted from people who worked in those trades. The same held true for those earning an income from weaving, handicrafts, or or from any form of manufacturing or merchandising. They all were immune from tithing including all those in the military and government workers. And though the Levites were commanded to pay a tenth of the tithe they received from the farmers and ranchers to the Priests, those Priests themselves were totally exempt from paying any tithe. To make it plain and simple, only the OWNERS of farms and flocks were required to tithe. Indeed, the Israelite who had fewer than ten cattle did not have to tithe on nine of them because the requirement stated that only the tenth animal that passed under the rod was to be tithed (Lev. 27:32). Looking at this matter of the tenth animal being tithed from our present monetary point of view, a rancher could have many thousands of dollars invested in nine cattle, but unless he had a tenth he was not required to tithe a penny of his assets. [Some Christian ministers commonly teach that the tithe is God's and that he must get his money first. But the Bible says it is the tenth animal (the last one) that passes under the rod that is God's, NOT the first]. Some want the matter of tithing to be reckoned a kind of universal law (or a principle) that people should naturally want to obey even if it is not specifically demanded in the Holy Scriptures. They want to call it a "principle of giving" that seemingly God has placed in operation throughout the universe without having written anything about it. If all else fails, the ministers usually resort to this tactic of introducing a so-called "universal tithing law" to exact the tithe from the people through guilt-ridden obligation. The fact is, however, tithing should not be accepted even as a "principle of giving." This unfortunate analogy leads to many difficulties with biblical teaching (especially since there is not a word about such a "principle" in the Bible). Look at the matter for a moment. If one wishes to make tithing a "principle," then why not make all rituals of the Bible to be principles? Making laws into principles when God has given no such authorization to do so is risky business and it has no sanction with the Holy Scriptures. It is an excuse to make human laws of one's own origination while not being satisfied with the divine interpretations that the Bible itself demands. It is time to give up such nonsense that tithing is a "principle" of "universal law." That is a teaching of man, not God. Christ-followers have died to this world, and they're recognized by the Father as already having kept all of the commandments, all of the rituals (including ALL TITHING, sabbaths, holy days, new moons, etc.). Indeed, the Gospel does not include making "principles" out of ritual laws or codes. The Apostle Paul in Colossians told Christians not to be concerned about ANY RITUALISTIC OBSERVANCES of Moses or those of any other religious teacher (and this includes the laws of tithing, sabbaths or holy days), because all Christians are "in Christ" and they have passed through all those early stages of religious development and requirements when Christ was a substitute for them. He did them all FOR THEM as their stand-in, their substitute. Christians have successfully accomplished (by being legally "in Christ") all the duties that God ever gave in a ritualistic sense for people to observe on earth. Christians now are reckoned by the Father to be his very own Family (Colossians 3:1,2). We are no longer accounted as physical Israelites, physical Jews, or even physical Gentiles (Colossians 3:10,11). Christians are now reckoned as a part of the divine Family of God (1 John 3:1,2) and we are already "in Christ" reigning in the heavens in the eyes of the Father. Sabbaths, holy days, rituals are not necessary for members of that divine Family to which we belong--and that includes no more TITHING to Levites and no more TITHING to Christian ministers (John 5:17,18). Praise God, the Gospel breeds generosity wherever it takes root. In Christ, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 34 Registered: 5-2004 |
Jenntooth the bottom line is, do what God asks you to do! I can tell you what my husband and I did: at some times we have felt led to give to the church we were attending, at other times, we haven't. At times we just plain didnt have enough money to spare. Sometimes, (including right now) we haven't had a committed church home, so we haven't given to a perticular church, but we are putting money aside in an account and giving as God asks us to. Even when we have had a church home, we have often given a lump sum (not a certai percentage) to the church, while giving in other places as God asks us to. This way God has asked us to help some people keep from losing their home because of a late payment, help some people bridge the gap when they have lost a job and taken a bit to find another... If we had been limiting ourselves to simply tithing to a particular church, we wouldn't have been looking, and would have missed those opportunities. Like I say, the bottom line is that we can trust God to answer these questions for us. If things are tight and you don't "tithe" for a month, it doesn't affect your standing in salvation! God isn't looking for you to fill ANY preset formula in order to be presentable to Him! Being a good steward of the money God entrusted to you doesn't come with a preset formula. Under the New Covenant we aren't under any law, even that one. Instead we look to the Holy Spirit within us to guide us to the answers. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 342 Registered: 7-2003 |
With the new covenant, it truly is all about relationship. It's easy to say 10% and go on about our business, but if we are consulting God in everything we do, 10% may or may not be what is asked by God. Like Tealeaves, I ask God for an amount to give to my church, then as prompted also support other ministries. I've never taken the time to add it up to see what "percent" it totals up to, but I know God has been faithful in the lean and the plenty. My pastor made an interesting point one day, he said scripture says to give from your "abundance" or prosperity. In his mind, that didn't include those struggling to put food on the table or pay rent. God alone knows each individual situation, and God alone can guide your giving, however, I would not presume 10% by rule. As most know here, I have a disabled daughter and there were years her medical expenses were just prohibitive and I never knew where the money was going to come from. But it always did and there were months I gave very little, if anything, to church or any other organization. You always hear how God blesses people who give, but he also blesses when we can't give and rely on him for our daily bread. I heard an illustration one time. This father and his family were having "mcdonalds" for dinner and the father dipped his fries in his daughter's ketchup. The daughter got mad and said "that's my ketchup". Her dad said, "Angie, I've got a huge bottle here. If we run out, I'll pour you some more." He said God used those words to speak to him about his finances. God has a big bottle and as we follow God's lead in giving (or not as the situation may dictate), he does indeed provide. Not the get-rich-quick schemes some teach, but our daily bread. I rarely worry about money. God has richly blessed me, not with monetary wealth, but with peace and contentment about my circumstances. Dennis makes great points about the origination of tithing and I think pastors who fear trusting God pound it in people's head, as he said, to guilt people into giving, but scripture says God loves a cheerful giver. I wonder how he sees the tithes of those given in fear rather than love. Remember, Christ said his yoke is easy. That doesn't mean the lake house gets priority over the church necessarily, but it doesn't mean you can't fulfill obligations to have both either. It's all about what God tells you, and you only know that by relationship. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 286 Registered: 12-2003 |
Melissa, your post is profound. The passage in Matthew 6:25-35 has come to my mind really often lately as I face the end of my teaching and move into my work with Life Assurance Ministries and Proclamation. I have moments of panic when I realize my last check arrives this month, but then I remember Jesus saying that the pagans run around worrying about what they'll eat and drink and wear, and our heavenly Father knows we need these things. I'm to seek His kingdom and His righteousness, and He will give me these necesseties. It's really true that growing in Jesus requires continual risk and "jumping off the cliff", so to speak. I'm convinced that God wants us to grow in surrender at increasingly deep levels. He really is enough, and He wants us to experience Him being all we need. I have to keep reminding myself that He equips us with what we need for accepting His will. Our Father provides for us more than we can think or ask--and His provision always involves giving us Himself. So I'm praying that God will grow my trust and teach me to surrender my impulse to try to control things myself! After all, I would never have imagined God providing the amazing security and freedom of knowing Him free from Adventism even ten years ago. His gifts truly are more than we can ask or think! Colleen | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 321 Registered: 1-2003 |
Read about the fellowship of the Believers in Acts...that is what new testament tithing is all about. If you see a neighbor in need and you have extra...give it. God will tell you when and where...it isn't a mechanical 10%! Plus...most SDA's (people who love to guilt people about tithing) use proof texting to bully us. They only read part of Deuteronomy 14 for example. Read all the way to the end of Deuteronomy 14...what an eye opener! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 114 Registered: 3-2004 |
Dennis, thanks for telling us about tithing. I asked you about it before I came on the FAF and you answered me very nicely. That is why I say, pray and ask God. And Pheeki, I like what you say about the believers in the book of Acts. Help those you see who are in need. I have not read Duet 14 for a long time, so I will read it. Diana | ||
| Jenntooth Registered user Username: Jenntooth Post Number: 9 Registered: 4-2004 |
Thanks to all of you who gave me your thoughts and encouragement! I really appreciate the points you have made. We have been convicted to give but I feel better now about giving as we are lead, not as we feel we have to. I've just heard recently that "if you don't give 10% to God he will curse your other 90% and we don't want that!" This from another former SDA. I now see how the legalism still has a stranglehold on us in some areas! Like Colleen, I struggle with trying to control things myself. I am growing daily and am laying things down, day by day. Now I must resist the impulse to pick them back up again! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 117 Registered: 3-2004 |
Jenntooth, I am so glad you are listening to God instead of any one else. God will bless you as he has blessed me. You will see that in the post I made on June 8. God has blessed me and is continuing to bless me. When I need th money, He gives me the work. Diana | ||
| Kme Registered user Username: Kme Post Number: 48 Registered: 7-2000 |
Thank you Dennis for explaining about tithing in the Bible as you did above. I have not studied this and really appreciate your post. I have felt in recent years that God impresses us in church and out of church when he wants us to give to someone or an organization. I believe that when we are accustomed to walking with God and hearing His voice that we know when it is Him speaking to our hearts. When we mess up is when we think we know better what we can afford than He does. When we don't follow His promptings we disobey. It's pretty important to walk in the Holy Spirit every moment of every day. He really does care about the little things as well as the big in our lives. He knows when someone needs help and he knows what we have to give. It may be in the form of a rug or bedspread that is nice but we no longer have need for. Or children's clothing or shoes. Not all of us have money we wonder what to do with, but most of us have extras we can give from time to time. If you ask what you can give to the Lord he will send the person or the message to show you what and where to give. He only requires a prayful willing heart. He already has taken care of the rest. Have a blessed day! | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 98 Registered: 10-2001 |
Controversial subject. I've always felt led to tithe. I miss sometimes but I do try to follow the principle. I think 100% of our money is God's so we should be good stewards. God will let you know what He wants you to do. He says Try me and see if I dont' pour out more blessings than you can hold. Hasn't proven wrong by me! He is so faithful. I have miracle tithing stories. I mean absolute miracles. It's a trust issue and a faith issue. Might sound weird, but I believe God honors what we believe. Look at the woman with the issue of blood. No specific scripture told her if she touched Jesus' garments she would be healed but she believed that and she was! One pastor said he asked God why his mom was such a good christian and always poor. He said God told him she didn't believe in prosperity. (Another controversial subject--no God is not primarily interested in making you rich) I believe if I tithe God will supply all of my needs. He has never let me down. That's just me, if someone else doesn't believe that, then I don't feel it should be a law. | ||
| Debbie Registered user Username: Debbie Post Number: 69 Registered: 7-2000 |
Dennis, When I read your post on tithing a few days ago, I found it to be a great encouragement to me! And then I received the Proclamation! a couple days later, and realized you are the same Dennis!(as soon as I started reading the article, I began to recognize the similarities b/t the post and the article). Melissa, I also found great encouragement with your testimonies as well. Between your two posts (Dennis and Melissa), and some of the others, I sort of had an "Aha!" moment. Though I have never been SDA, as many of you are already aware, I became deeply ensnared in the law of the tithe some years ago. It started right after I married my first husband who was raised Adventist. I found out as soon as he received his first paycheck, that we were to give 10% of our gross salary...period...end of subject. Ever since then, I have struggled with this issue. I have heard many sermons on this subject, and none have said that tithing is required. But none have contained the subject matter I needed to hear that would set me free of the bondage I have been under all of these years! Praise the Lord for His faithfulness! Debbie | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 92 Registered: 4-2000 |
Many months ago, I emailed a brief message on tithing to the late Larry Burkett and his Crown Ministries organization. After hearing him tell a radio listener that if one doesn't pay tithe--they may not be a Christian--I challenged their engrained tithing views as being unbiblical. I plainly stated that there never was a MONETARY tithe, under the Old Covenant, in the first place. As I somehow expected, they never had the Christian courtesy to send me a reply to this day. Apparently, they don't have printed brochures or online articles to deal with the true history of tithing. The following tithing statements from Ellen White are most outrageous, guilt-producing, and scary: If you don't pay tithe God may strike your favorite horse or cow dead (Test.,Vol. 2, p. 661). If you don't pay tithe God won't bless you (CS, p. 87). If you don't pay tithe church members should not pray for you when ill (Healthful Living, p. 121 "Prayer for Sick"). If you don't pay tithe you may not get to heaven (Test., Vol. 5, p. 272). If you don't pay tithe God may not answer your prayers (COL, p. 144). If you don't pay tithe you lie to the Holy Ghost (Test., Vol. 4, pp. 469-70). If you don't pay tithe unfaithfulness to God is written in heavenly record (Test., Vol. 6, p. 391). If you haven't been paying tithe you must confess your sin and pay up (CS, p. 95). Ministers must never touch tithe money in emergency even if they intend to repay (Test., Vol. 9, p. 247). Even young children are commanded to pay tithe (AH, p. 389). If you don't have money for food you must endure privation and pay tithe first (SM, Vol. 2, p. 212). If you don't pay tithe you don't trust God and may fall into your grave (Test., Vol. 2, p. 199). If you don't pay tithe the records of heaven show you are an embezzler (Test., Vol. 3, p. 394). If you don't pay tithe you will not be worthy of everlasting life (Test., Vol. 3, p. 408). If you don't pay tithe you will be cursed of God (TM, p. 306). If you don't pay tithe you will be poverty stricken (Test., Vol. 6, p. 449). If you don't pay tithe the Lord will reduce your income (Test., Vol. 4, p. 484). If you don't pay tithe you will receive a curse--if you do, you will be blessed (TM, p. 60). If you don't pay tithe you shouldn't be called a Christian (Test., Vol. 4, p. 476). If you have ten or twenty thousand dollars, in addition to tithing, it is "imperative" to pay a sin offering and a thank offering as well ("The Claims of Mrs. EGW As Stated By Herself," Tract No. 1, p. 16) See also: Test., Vol. 1, pp. 390, 391, 394, 405, 510). My favorite one is the first one listed above. That one alone should compel and frighten us into full compliance of compulsory giving(smile). Praise the Lord, our Christian giving is another freedom we have in Christ. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 568 Registered: 7-2000 |
Yes, Dennis...doesn't it put God in a bad light to say that his blessings and supplying of all our needs depend on if we pay tithe? We've personally been told we would never be blessed if don't start keeping the Sabbath and paying tithe! I'm so grateful to live in a total life (money and/or time!) relationship with Christ now. It really is freeing! grace always, cindy | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 348 Registered: 7-2003 |
Isn't that really "buying" God's blessings (tithes for blessings)? Analogy: I remember my dad would get mad at my mom and not pay child support if we missed a visit weekend (when I was a kid). Since my dad always had a laundry list of chores for us to do, I came to see it as him paying for his housekeeping services rather than really caring about spending time with us. For years, that thought tarnished my relationship with my dad. When I see him, even still, I wonder if he's worried about what it's costing him. He's in a more awkward position now. Once my ex husband went through a period where he did not pay his child support and my dad had to watch me juggle to make ends meet ... including not running the air conditioner during the summer for fear of an electric bill I couldn't pay. He suddenly saw child support (or the lack thereof) in action. Eyeopening, I suspect. Another situation also comes to mind in regards to this conversation. One time, about 16 years ago, I made a payment on an account and the bank accidentally double debited it. So, instead of showing the one $600 payment, it showed two. I waited for a month, thinking their audit system would catch the error and it would be fixed upon the next statement, but it wasn't. So, doing the right thing, I went to the bank and explained their error (which meant I owed $600 more than they thought I did). I remember thinking the lady at the bank didn't even thank me for bringing the error to their attention. And I really struggled for a time period after that that I didn't get any sort of "blessing" or some obvious financial relief for "doing the right thing". I eventually resolved it within myself that I didn't do the "right" thing because I expected a blessing, I did the "right" thing because it was "right". To put it in perspective, that error was more than half a months paycheck for me at the time. It was a huge amount from where I was sitting (still is, but in a different way). Because of my daughter, I've had to really come to grips with "earning" God's blessings. It's just not that simple. People who tithe and "follow the rules" financially still lose their jobs, have catastrophic financial loses and people who don't still get financially comfortable jobs and get financial benefits. We (generically, including me) just need to grasp following God's leading period...not to receive benefits, not to avoid cursings, but just because it's part of our relationship with him. As I've been listening to the epistles on tape, I've been struck by the comment that Christ took the curse of the law for me when he hung on the tree. I've been pondering whether "cursings" even really exist any more for Christians if Christ became a curse for us. We live in such a vending machine society where we drop in our coins and get our reward. But where is our faith? Where is the relationship if we're just trading obedience for blessings? I'm over simplifying to make a point, but I do hope it's a valid point. | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 9 Registered: 6-2004 |
I remember that tithing system Dennis wrote about. They were practically asking for almost 20% of your weekly income (before taxes, of course). While the Bible clearly says that each one should set aside an amount according their income for the work, it doesn't insist on a tithe like the SDA does. And it certainly does not say your chances of getting into heaven depend on it. If that was the case, many Christians in third world countries would never have a chance. I encountered a SDA member while on a missions trip to Haiti and I felt really bad for him, knowing that he was trying to work his way into heaven by keeping the old law. He was very opposed to our approach to the people, but I know that his views were largely disregarded by the majority we spoke with. Hopefully he will be set free from the traditions of man. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 301 Registered: 12-2003 |
Melissa, you ask good questions. I agree with your point: "Where is the relationship if we're just trading obedience for blessings?" When we are in Christ, there is no more curse over us. The curse of sin is completely paid for in Christ. The bad things that happen to us through no choices of our own are the results of our living in a broken world where sin has become organic in all creation, but these things are not judgments on us as the curses of the law were to be. Jesus promised in Matthew 6 that God would supply all our temporal needs because He knows we need them. Our "job" is to seek the kingdom of heaven and His righteousness, and God will supply what we need to live. It's not our obedience that causes God to bless us; He provides for us when we trust him. It's trust that yields obedience, and it's trust that builds our relationship with him. That trust really does feel like letting go of my control, being willing to live without seeing how all my problems and concerns will be solved, and embracing what God asks me to embrace for his sake whether I think it makes human sense or not. I realize this trust sounds crazy if one doesn't understand the new birth and living by the Spirit, but in Christ it is the only way to grow and flourish. I like what you said above, Melissa, about our needing to "grasp following God's leading...not to receive benefits, not to avoid cursings, but just because it's part of our relationship with him." He is our great reward. Colleen | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 103 Registered: 10-2001 |
Can I ask a question? It's hard to type a question, I don't want it to come across wrong at all. I'm just trying to understand all of your perspective. So, are you saying you give nothing? Or does it vary or is there a system or exactly what? If a person doesn't tithe, what do you do? How can pastors and churches exist if nobody tithes? I'm not being judgemental at all, I do not beleive it is a law, I don't always tithe, I try but don't freak out if I don't, I usually tithe more than 10%, I'm not legalistic, I love to help the building fund or the media ministry, I love to give, wish I had more to give. I'm just trying to understand. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 305 Registered: 12-2003 |
Actually, that's a good question. Our church, for example, doesn't call for offerings in church although a collection is taken every Sunday. About once or twice a year we hear of our fiscal situation. If there is a shortfall as we approach the end of the fiscal year, the pastor announces it (he also announces the fiscal condition even if it's not a shortfall), and asks people to pray about the matter. I can't think of a time when the difference wasn't made up within a couple of weeks or less. Right now we are in a capital campaign, and the congregation was invited to make financial commitments for the next three years. Not everyone made a commitment, and the pledges of those that did are known only to one staff person and one bookkeeper, although the church knows what amount was raised. I think many people do use a 10% rough guide in their minds, but we've found since leaving Adventism, we end up giving much more than the amount we decide in advance to give our church each year, . For example, Richard donates a lot of professional work to ministry of various sorts including our local church. These donations are jobs that, if charged out as he would for a business client, would yield some significant income in a year. We have come to realize that all we are and have belong to the Lord, our house, our time, our skills, our money--and God brings opportunities and work to us that we know are from Him. I have been amazed at how God has provided for us when we respond to his promptings to give, whether that giving is money or hospitality or time and creativity. I believe that when people are made alive by the Holy Spirit, the question of giving money is no longer an issue of "how much" but of "how" and "where". Richard has really been an example and a leader to me in this area. As he's said to me, we prayed about our financial commitments, and now as we're facing a new situation with my leaving teaching, we need to trust God to provide what we need, including the $$ to cover the commitments we've made. Of course, situations can change, and God doesn't punish us if circumstances create a crisis and we can't meet all our planned giving, yet Richard takes his commitments seriously, and he is not willing to wiggle out of the commitments we've made as a preemptive move to protect ourselves from the unknown future. Generosity is one of the gifts of the Spirit, and I believe some people are gifted with this gift in greater proportion than are other people. There's really no explaining how it happens; the gifts are given according to the Holy Spirit's will. Yet I know people God blesses with large incomes who see that blessing as God's enabling them to give generously to ministry instead of providing generously for themselves. I guess there's no rule, Sabra--except the "rule" of trusting the Lord to reveal his will in this area! Colleen |
