|Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 8:41 am: || |
Pheeki, Praying that you will be surrounded by the wonderful, marvelous, matchless grace of Jesus and with that will come strentgh to withstand. This will happen even when you feel like you are being made to suffer for what you have brought. It has happened the same way for my daughter who only rested in what she had already believed but now she is the one who has stirred up the trouble. I would have to say I am glad your husband is yelling at you, that's better than nothing at all, because when there is no communication you haven't any idea where they are. I'm sure part of the reason he is upset is because he cannot produce the proof needed to keep on keeping on. You see we can hand it over to God but they don't understand how to do that, thus frustration.
You are on the top of my prayer list, Carol
|Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 11:48 am: || |
Here is my reply to my brother's email. It is pretty lengthy. I hope I got it right. I prayed during the writing of this!
We are told to try the spirits to see where they are from. Do you really believe that the Holy Spirit is going to lead us away from the Bible (Old and New Testament)?
I must have not made myself clear in my last post, or are you inferring that where I have been led by the Holy Spirit is not biblical? It is an issue of trust, all a person can do is pray and ask the H.S. to lead them into truth and then trust that he will. How can you go wrong if you do this? I think trusting in man (woman) is where people go wrong. We need nothing further than the Bible and the Holy Spirit to know Godís will. We do not need volumes of books restating the Bible + a personís own interpretation to guide us. In my opinion that is looking to man to meet our needs instead of God. When you say we are told to ìtry the spirits to see where they are fromÖî are you talking about the Bible? What other Spirit would inhabit the very words of God? I have simply given you scripture from the Bible, nothing from any other source so I am not sure what you mean?
What you are calling the New Covenant is what Revelation calls the Everlasting Covenant. It's the one that was initiated in the Garden of Eden and was in place before the world was created. No one was ever saved by the Old Covenant. The Seventh-day Adventist church has never taught that anyone was ever saved under the Old Covenant.
I did a study on the everlasting covenant and found out some interesting information.
Genesis 9:16 is the first mention of an everlasting covenant:
ì Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth."
(Here God enters into an everlasting covenant to not destroy the earth by flood ever again.)
Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner-those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."
(Here God makes another everlasting covenant with Abraham to circumcise his offspring.)
19 Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.
Numbers 18:19 establishes a everlasting covenant to care for the Levites. (there are no more Levites so this covenant has come to an end. It served its purpose while Israel was still a nation.)
Whatever is set aside from the holy offerings the Israelites present to the LORD I give to you and your sons and daughters as your regular share. It is an everlasting covenant of salt before the LORD for both you and your offspring."
2 Samuel 23:5 (the words of David)
"Is not my house right with God?
Has he not made with me an everlasting covenant,
arranged and secured in every part?
Will he not bring to fruition my salvation
and grant me my every desire?
David is speaking of the everlasting covenant that the ìseedî who is Christ will come through David to redeem us.
1 Chronicles 16:15/Psalms 105:8 (identical)
15 He remembers his covenant forever,
the word he commanded, for a thousand generations,
16 the covenant he made with Abraham,
the oath he swore to Isaac.
17 He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree,
to Israel as an everlasting covenant:
18 "To you I will give the land of Canaan
as the portion you will inherit."
Here the everlasting covenant was given to Abraham stating that Israel would have the land of Canaan. Did they keep it? No, they were dissolved as a nation after Christ came because they had served their purpose. Godís covenant was everlasting as long as they were a people.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste
and totally plundered.
The LORD has spoken this word.
4 The earth dries up and withers,
the world languishes and withers,
the exalted of the earth languish.
5 The earth is defiled by its people;
they have disobeyed the laws,
violated the statutes
and broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore a curse consumes the earth;
its people must bear their guilt.
Therefore earth's inhabitants are burned up,
and very few are left.
(This is prophetic in nature and is talking about the unsaved probably in the last plagues before judgment. I am not really sure about that?)
Give ear and come to me;
hear me, that your soul may live.
I will make an everlasting covenant with you,
my faithful love promised to David.
4 See, I have made him a witness to the peoples,
a leader and commander of the peoples.
(Here God is speaking of making an everlasting covenant with us, the one promised to David. He is speaking in future tense not in past tense. He did not make this covenant at Sinai.)
8 "For I, the LORD , love justice;
I hate robbery and iniquity.
In my faithfulness I will reward them
and make an everlasting covenant with them.
9 Their descendants will be known among the nations
and their offspring among the peoples.
All who see them will acknowledge
that they are a people the LORD has blessed."
(God is speaking of the covenant he will make with his people. If he had already made this covenant with Moses and the Israelites he would not speak of rewarding them in the future.)
31 From the day it was built until now, this city has so aroused my anger and wrath that I must remove it from my sight. 32 The people of Israel and Judah have provoked me by all the evil they have done-they, their kings and officials, their priests and prophets, the men of Judah and the people of Jerusalem. 33 They turned their backs to me and not their faces; though I taught them again and again, they would not listen or respond to discipline. 34 They set up their abominable idols in the house that bears my Name and defiled it. 35 They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters  to Molech, though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.
36 "You are saying about this city, 'By the sword, famine and plague it will be handed over to the king of Babylon'; but this is what the LORD , the God of Israel, says: 37 I will surely gather them from all the lands where I banish them in my furious anger and great wrath; I will bring them back to this place and let them live in safety. 38 They will be my people, and I will be their God. 39 I will give them singleness of heart and action, so that they will always fear me for their own good and the good of their children after them. 40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me. 41 I will rejoice in doing them good and will assuredly plant them in this land with all my heart and soul.
(God is still speaking of the everlasting covenant in future terms. He also does not like Isreal (the people) who have the Sabbath and all his laws and who strive to keep them and fall short incurring Godís wrath!)
"In those days, at that time,"
declares the LORD ,
"the people of Israel and the people of Judah together
will go in tears to seek the LORD their God.
5 They will ask the way to Zion
and turn their faces toward it.
They will come and bind themselves to the LORD
in an everlasting covenant
that will not be forgotten.
" 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will deal with you as you deserve, because you have despised my oath by breaking the covenant. 60 Yet I will remember the covenant I made with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. 61 Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed when you receive your sisters, both those who are older than you and those who are younger. I will give them to you as daughters, but not on the basis of my covenant with you. 62 So I will establish my covenant with you, and you will know that I am the LORD . 63 Then, when I make atonement for you for all you have done, you will remember and be ashamed and never again open your mouth because of your humiliation, declares the Sovereign LORD .' "
(Notice he does not refer to the 10 Commandments as an everlasting covenant? He simply says covenant.
And he is speaking of making an everlasting covenant that will make atonement for what they had done. Who is the one who was sent to atone? Jesus.)
I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.' "
(God is talking about the future here. Isnít Christ among us forever? Doesnít he dwell in us? God doesnít need the tabernacle Israel built because he lives in us. To gain peace with God we needed to be reconciled and Jesus did this for us.)
Interestingly, everlasting covenant was not found in the New Testament at all. Lets look at the name New Testament, which can also be called New Covenant.
Here is the definition of covenant:
1. A binding agreement; a compact. See Synonyms at bargain.
a. A formal sealed agreement or contract.
b. A suit to recover damages for violation of such a contract.
3. In the Bible, God's promise to the human race.
Here is the definition of testament:
1. Something that serves as tangible proof or evidence: The spacious plan of the city is a testament to the foresight of its founders.
2. A statement of belief; a credo: my political testament.
3. Law. A written document providing for the disposition of a person's property after death; a will.
4. Testament Bible. Either of the two main divisions of the Bible.
5. Archaic. A covenant between humans and God.
Here we see that testament and covenant can be used interchangeably. Therefore we have the Old covenant/testament found in the Old Testament/Covenant of the Bible. And we have the New Testament/covenant found in the New Testament/covenant of the Bible. Therefore, I submit to you that the New Testament is the everlasting covenant because it is the revelation/will of Christ. The everlasting covenant is Christ giving us everlasting life and reconciling our relationship with God! Fulfilling the promises God had made.
But lets look at what the New Testament has to say about the New Covenant:
And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.î
(These are the words of Jesus.)
1 Corinthians 11:25
In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. 27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.
2 Corinthians 3:6
Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God, 6 who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not in a written code but in the Spirit; for the written code kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 Now if the dispensation of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such splendor that the Israelites could not look at Moses' face because of its brightness, fading as this was, 8 will not the dispensation of the Spirit be attended with greater splendor? 9 For if there was splendor in the dispensation of condemnation, the dispensation of righteousness must far exceed it in splendor.
But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion for a second. 8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "The days will come, says the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; 9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and so I paid no heed to them, says the Lord. 10 This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 11 And they shall not teach every one his fellow or every one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more." 13 In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
11But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12 he entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant. 16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. 18 Hence even the first covenant was not ratified without blood. 19 For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you." 21 And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. 22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. 23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has entered, not into a sanctuary made with hands, a copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the Holy Place yearly with blood not his own; 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.
(Therefore we have a new covenant and the old covenant has been replaced.)
I then looked up commandment in the New Testament and here is what I found:
47 If any one hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge; the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day. 49 For I have not spoken on my own authority; the Father who sent me has himself given me commandment what to say and what to speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has bidden me."
(Note that the above does not say, If anyone reads/hears the 10 Commandments (the Law) and does not keep themÖit says ìhears my sayingsî.)
Then Jesus goes on to sayÖ
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."
If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
23 Jesus answered him, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me. 25 "These things I have spoken to you, while I am still with you.
(Notice he doesnít say the 10 Commandments here, he says ìmy wordsî.)
So never in the Bible can I find any reference or direct statement that the covenant given at Mt. Sinai was everlasting. The Bible speaks about many everlasting covenants but is curiously silent about the Law of Moses/God given to Isreal at Mt. Sinai as everlasting. In fact what it does say is that the covenant given at Mt. Sinai was to last only until the ìseedî should come. So you see, the Bible itself states it had a beginning and an end.
I want to leave you with this:
A Psalm for Palm Sunday
By Joseph Bayley
Why did you chose
A lowly donkey
To carry you
To ride in your parade?
Had you no friend
Who owned a horse
-a royal mount with spirit
fit for a king to ride?
Why chose an donkey
Beast of burden
Trained to plow
Not carry kings.
Why did you chose
A lowly unimportant person
To bear you
In my world tody?
Iím poor and unimportant
Trained to work
Not carry kings
-let alone the King of kings
and yet youíve chosen me
to carry you in triumph
in the worldís parade.
Keep me small
So all may see
How great you are
Keep me humble
So all may say
Blessed is he who cometh in the name of the Lord
Not what a great donkey he rides
|Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 11:58 am: || |
I think you wrote an excellent reply.
I just want to point out that Jesus explicitly established the New Covenant at the last supper with these verses:
Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24, Luke 22:20
The KJV translates it as ìthis is my blood of the New Testament,î but the Greek words for ìNew Testamentî are exactly the same as in Hebrews: ìkainos diathekeî where the KJV translates to ìNew Covenant.î
Other translations use the word ìcovenantî in the Gospels.
|Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 12:18 pm: || |
Good answer, Pheeki. Aren't you discovering that you're learning the Bible in much deeper ways?
|Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 1:07 pm: || |
Thanks for your votes of confidence. I am alternate between deep gratitude and elation for any revelation from the Holy Spirit to nervousness that I am getting it wrong. Also, sometimes when I get going and the H.S. is showing me something really good and the words are flowing I get a little proud b/c I feel like he chose me to show me the truth. That is why I put that poem at the end b/c I want him (everyone) to know that I don't think I am special in any way that anyone else is special to God. Does that make sense?
My brother is a smart person and for me to have even attempted to tell him what I think on these subjects is something I would have never dared to do in the past. God is giving me boldness. I told my ethics teacher (Pastor Kilgore at SWAU) that I didn't feel like I was an SDA (this was when the blinders had slipped just a little for me) and I was deathly afraid to admit it to anyone let alone a member of the clergy. But he was very kind and told me that he had talked to many others who felt the same way. I think that gave me courage. (And he didn't tell my inlaws, which I was afraid he would do!) he is a good man. I have tried to share my new findings with several family members and they do not want to have a Bible study. Yet they consider themselves Christias. It is puzzling to me. You should see them scatter when I walk in the room with a Bible. They act like I am holding a weapon, well actually I am!
|Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 5:45 pm: || |
Pheeki, Amazing, marvelous,wonderful what you did with the help of the HS. You are seeing just what it is like to completly rest in Him. Isn't it glorious? I knew you could do it. I read it in a hurry but it sounds GREAT and I will go back and read it better later, just wanted to let you know how great I think you did. I can totally appreciate what you said about being bold, just before this all happened to us I asked God to help me be bold in my witness for Him and the rest is history. I too am up agaisnt someone who intimadated me, but not anymore.
What a Glorious day this is, Carol
|Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 7:42 am: || |
Thanks to everyone. He replied to me, they are always much shorter than mine! I wonder if he reads them at all?
HERE IT IS...
I too feel misunderstood. My reference to the "Everlasting Covenant" was concerning the covenant made in the Garden of Eden immediately after sin. It is the only covenant that provides salvation. The lamb, just like Jesus, had done nothing wrong. His blood symbolized the blood of the Lamb of God that was to come.
Again I say, you have never heard me say or intimate that the law saves anyone. Salvation is not the purpose of the law. However, it may be that I'm beginning to see why we keep going around in circles.
There is a HUGE difference between being legal and being legalisitc. Being legal simply means to be law abiding. Paul, Jesus, and nearly everybody I know is in favor of that. Legalistic, on the other hand, means to base your salvation on your legality. To do this would be to negate the sacrifice of Jesus and the salvation that He makes available to all upon the merits of His legality.
It isn't necessary to be illigal in order to avoid being legalistic. Each one of the Ten Commandments still applies to the life that is led by the Spirit of God. It will always be wrong to murder, commit adultery, defame God, break His Sabbath, etc.
Let me leave you with Psalm 1:1-2 Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly. Nor stands in the path of sinners. Nor sits in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the Lord, and in His law he meditates day and night.
I COULD FIND NO EVERLASTING COVENANT MADE IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN. IS THIS ELLEN WHITE?
HE IS TRYING TO BE NICE TO ME AND I APPRIECIATE THAT. OF ALL THE SDA I KNOW, HE IS REALLY ONE OF THE LEAST JUDGMENTAL I HAVE EVER MET!
|Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 8:39 am: || |
You are correct. There is no covenant (everlasting or otherwise) established in Eden. It is the same circular argument that tries to place the Ten Commandments at creation.
Unfortunately, your brother is having trouble separating the teachings of EGW from the Bible.
Here is what your brother believes:
Fundamentals of Christian Education, page 287, paragraph 1
They had been corrupted by idolatry, and the time came when God called them forth from Egypt, in order that they might obey His laws and keep His Sabbath, which He had instituted in Eden.
S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 1, page 1104, paragraph 3
The Sabbath of the fourth commandment was instituted in Eden
The Spirit of Prophecy Volume One, page 261, paragraph 2
The Sabbath of the fourth commandment was instituted in Eden.
The Present Truth, November 3, 1885, paragraph 3
They are seeking for light, and as they trace down that law, precept by precept, they find right in the bosom of the decalogue the fourth commandment as it was instituted in Eden and proclaimed in awful grandeur from Sinai's mount, "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy
Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, May 7, 1901, paragraph 5
the will made known in the Ten Commandments, given in Eden
And so on.
HERE IS WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS:
 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
 And this is the law which Moses set before the children of Israel:
 These are the testimonies, and the statutes, and the judgments, which Moses spake unto the children of Israel, after they came forth out of Egypt,
So the above verses set up the next chapters which start with the Ten Commandments.
 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
Guess what was next.
So, now we know exactly what is in ìthe Law.î It is the Ten Commandments and the statutes and regulations.
We know exactly when ìthe Lawî (therefore the Ten Commandments) started. It started at Horeb/Sinai.
Repeated in Galatians:
 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
That is the real reason why you and he are going in circles.
He needs to come to this in his own time. You cannot force him.
God's Love to you and your brother.
|Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 8:51 am: || |
Pheeki, This is also what I usually find; that there discertation is always shorter than mine. I also find that they can only give you the scripture, they cannot apply it to what they believe thru what has happened in their lives. Also it always appears to be doubletalk and when you pin them down to it they make statements that leave you dumbfounded unable to remember what you in fact were really talking about. I would say he has in no way answered your question of the everlasting covenant. This happens all the time, instead of just answering they move to their own agenda and that is so unfair, just as Colleen mentioned elswhere and also as you made reference to in regard to what happens to our being lead by the spirit. I have told my son-in-law that he is denying the spirit of God when he does not acknowledge the fact I say these things have been revealed to me. This is what the Bible says about denying Christ, 2 Peter 2:1 But also in those days there arose false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among yourselves, who will subtly and stealthily introduce heretical doctrines--destructive heresies--even denying and disowning the Master who bouhgt them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. Now Christ left His spirit at pentecost so that it could abide in me and if someone chooses to not acknowledge that this in fact is the HS that is teaching me and showing me and you and my daughter and all the people who have had their blinders removed then I would have to say the Master that bought them is being denied.
That's all for now, Praying for you and your whole family(extended also). Carol
|Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 10:06 am: || |
I know the Lord has sent you to me to lift me up and strengthen me in my time of persecution. I was reading about Constantine (someone much maligned in SDA books) and I read a prayer he spoke (I think before a battle, maybe) and it was quite lovely and sincere. I am finding I must rethink many things. Then I read about Polycarp, a martyr around AD 153. He was a bishop somewhere and was captured by the Roman's and asked to renounce Christ and pledge alliegence to Caesar. He of course refused and was burned at the stake. He stated he had live eighty and six years serving Christ his king and counted it a blessing to suffer as Christ had done.
I have to rethink everything I have heard about Saints. I was taught that the Catholic church was the Antichrist and to lowly esteem everything connected with it such as Saints. And it is very intersting they were persecuted not for keeping the SAbbath but for Christ!
Anyway, back to my brother...I found some very interesting verses in the Old Testament about the SAbbath.
6 He has broken down his booth like that of a garden, laid in ruins the place of his appointed feasts; the LORD has brought to an end in Zion appointed feast and sabbath, and in his fierce indignation has spurned king and priest.
And I will put an end to all her mirth, her feasts, her new moons, her sabbaths, and all her appointed feasts.
Where is Isreal now? Where are the 12 tribes? God told them what he was going to do through his prophets and Jesus spoke of the temple being destroyed. God did put an end to their feasts, new moons and sabbaths when he sent his Son!
I had never seen these texts before!
|Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 10:38 am: || |
Look at Amos 8, especially verse 9.
Then go to Matthew 27:45
|Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 12:04 pm: || |
awesome! So when they crucifed Jesus, God departed from them. They could no longer hear the words of Jesus(God), all they had left was their Law. He sent a famine on the Land, not of food and water but of hearing the words of the Lord. That kind of ends the arguement that the 10 commandments are the ultimate picture of God's will and his government. Jesus is much superior.
|Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 12:16 pm: || |
So, why does not everyone see that (e.g. SDA)?
Second Corinthians chapters 3 and 11!!!
|Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 3:18 pm: || |
I know Jerry, I feel the same way. Here is a good text, the only Bible I have available at this moment is the International Children's Bible so bear with me...
So now those who are in Christ Jesus are NOT guilty. I am not judged guilty because in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit that brings life made me free.
Contrast that with the statement by EGW that says we must never say we are saved. To me that is the saddest part of the SDA mindset, that they have no assurance of salvation. They have to live a life of torment. Very sad.
|Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 6:06 pm: || |
Is something wrong or is it just my computer. The Tesa/Arthur Beem testimony is gone. The one from december is showing up. Did you pull it colleen?
Post Number: 67
|Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 7:56 am: || |
The topic on this board is "Motivated by the Law?" I am motivated by the law, NOT becuase it will save me. Becuase I am fearfull that If I break the Covet law or the Fornication law and If i do not confess those sins. Then I am doomed. But, if I have Jesus as my Saviour and I do break the fornication law or whatever. Since I am not under the law I am not counted as a sinner? Is this true? Can christians not keep the Commandments and be okay with God? Becuase Paul says "You are not under the Law but under Grace" I am confused. If the law points us out as sinners and then points us to the Messiah. And If I break a law no matter what then I just ask for forgiveness? Is this true? If this is true, Then why did not God send his son to be the saviour of the world in Genesis 1:1? And not wait for thousands of years latter. And waiting thousands of years latter. Those laws even today in the bible still convince people mainly jews and God fearing people like me that I must keep the laws that he gave. I am confused why would God knowingly put laws and chapter after chapter of things in his word knowingly that we will fail and fail and never be able to do what he said. and God had to know when he gave the Law that there would be millions and millions of people going to there grave never able to get to heaven. Becuase those people were counting on the Law to keep them in favor with God! Why would God do this?
Post Number: 68
|Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 7:58 am: || |
PS the above remark is from a person that just doesn't understand. And is searching and not wanting to attack. Sorry I should have stated this in the above statement.
Post Number: 328
|Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 9:45 am: || |
It is hard to wrap my mind around it all too. But I can tell you I was zealous to keep the Law as an SDA (just the 10 and Leveticus 11) because I wanted to be sealed with the Sabbath for salvation. But Speakeasy, that is another Gospel and it throws people into confusion.
Read Galatians over and over until it becomes clear...Romans can be a little confusing but over all a great book to understand the place of the Law.
The Law is described as a tutor...the Law points out our sins and for some reason humans are programmed to want to "do" something...to the human mind the "Gospel" makes no sense...it seems too simple. They try to complicate it but God made it so simple that even a child or a person with a low IQ could understand it.
To me, Romans 10:4 is about the plainest you can get on how to be saved.
Also, remember the New Covenant is not like the Old (engraved on stones a.k.a. "The Ministry of death".) the new covenant says God will remember our sins no more. Does it mean we are sinless? Does it mean we cease to sin? No, not until God takes us off this planet.
How can unrighteous people be counted as righteous...because we have a God that calls things that are not as if they are...so when he looks at us he sees righteousness because of Christ.
The Law serves to condem but there is no condemnation for those in Christ. Read 1 Timothy 1 to see who the Law is for.
God bless and keep praying and studying.
Post Number: 358
|Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 9:55 am: || |
Speakeasy, you ask great and thinking questions. Complete answers would take a long time, so may I suggest Romans? To nutshell it right now, God gave us a law (the law of sin and death) to prove we could never meet his righteous standard. Only by recognizing we can never meet his standard do we recognize our need for a savior. As we recognize our need for a savior, we learn of Christ and accept him and he becomes our savior. The Bible says we are NEW CREATURES. Does that mean we don't sin...nope. Does it mean we are not to care about our sin and live as we like ... nope. The fascinating fact in Romans is that when God sees us, he sees Christ's righteousness. It is a great complexity to me as a human being because my sin is so ever before my eyes, but I am IN CHRIST. Because I am in Christ, I AM righteous. If you read Hebrews 11, you will discover that all of the Old Testament people were saved by faith, not by law. There has not been given a law that could make us righteous (Galatians, I think). Our ONLY hope for righteousness is Christ. It is my understanding, we are to seek to live sinless lives, but if we do sin, and ask for forgiveness, he is faithful and just to forgive us all unrighteousness. To me, that means I don't waste another minute worrying about that failure, but keep looking forward and resting in Christ and keep on keeping on. I stumble, fall and get up. But I keep pressing on towards the prize. Scripture says the whole law is fulfilled in love...love of God and love of others.
I have a child out of wedlock. I was a Christian when I got pregnant, so by "law" standards, I'm guilty. But genuine repentance means to move in a different direction, not merely to say "oops, sorry" to sin again another day. We all sin, every day. By wrong thoughts, if not by action. None of us can meet God's righteous standard, BUT the good news is Christ did. And since I am in Christ and he is in me, I stand with Christ's righteousness. I will try to get some time and put some specific scriptures together for you to help answer some of your questions. I honestly don't know if I can answer everything for you, but there are some others on here who have great insight given your background. Remember, there is NOW therefore NO condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. The law is good if used lawfully and it is not for a righteous person. Since I am in Christ and have his righteousness, it is not for me. I hope these don't seem to be platitudes because most of them are scriptures I've memorized, but don't have the chapter and verse in front of me. If unconfessed sin makes us doomed, we're all doomed. Because I'm sure there is sin in my life I don't even recognize. Just remember the blood of Jesus covers us, we are his. He stands with us and mediates for us.
I had another friend ask why God didn't send a savior in the garden rather than running through the law era first, and the only thing I can figure is God had to show the need for a savior by letting man try it his own way (let our arrogance run its course, if you will). When he couldn't figure out right from wrong on his own, God gave him a standard to measure against. That measure had many prefigurements of Christ in it as our passover lamb, first fruits, sabbath rest, etc. But the law could not make one righteous. For that came Messiah. That is only my speculation. God created us without sin, so why not listen to begin with and never need a savior at all?
I don't hear any attacks in your statements and hope you hear none back in mine. I've struggled with some of the same questions when it comes to just freely accepting the grace of God. It is because I love God that I want to have a good relationship with him. I'm no longer concerned with "not" doing something, I'm trying to figure out positive things TO DO that will enhance my relationship with Christ. I look at the law as a sort of minimal line in the sand of where sin begins. But I'm not trying to live a life as close to the line of sin as possible, I'm honestly trying to live a life pleasing to God, and that is a long way away from the line of sin. But I fail miserably some times. And anything good I do is filthy rags to God, isn't that great? My best is STILL not good enough. But in Christ, I have everything. The enemy wants me to be reminded of my failures and sins, but Christ wants to cleanse me of them. When I clean my son's little face, I don't save the dirt to show him later, I wipe it clean and rinse the rag for the next time. It's gone. See Christ's blood as doing the same for you.
I don't know the answer to some of your why's. But I am content to know there is a way through Christ. Does this help at all?
Post Number: 70
|Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 5:53 pm: || |
If the God of the Old Testament is the same as the God of The New Testament. And now we are NOT under that different gospel. Then God changes. He started out saying. This is the Law you must keep all of my Commandments. But then God changed, But not only did he change. He left millions of people in limbo. Millions of people are going and have gone to hell because they kept or tryed to keep what he told in his word. Why Would god change? how can you trust a God that changes and when he did change his plan of salvation Millions of people in the process will be going to hell. I don't understand? How do you put trust in the word of God when 70% of the word people say it is not for you. It is a different Gospel. STRANGE!!! So if part of the bible is not for our doing only for our learning. Then what verses in the bible are we NOT suppossed to do. Were is the list of verses that is not for us today?