| Author | Message | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
Thomas, very well put. The only ones resting that Sabbath were the ones smugly resting in their confidence that they had gotten rid of "the King of the Jews". They didn't rest for long, did they? | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
http://www.cultlink.com/plagiarism/newrelchart.htm This is a link to a list of denominations founded on plagerism and a list of the books plagerized. | ||
| Brad_2 (Brad_2) |
Thomas, I never saw it that way before thanks for sharing that. I don't know how many times I hear that Jesus rested on that day between the cross and the thrown in heaven. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Thomas, that was beautfully put. In addition, Jesus' death had been preceded by three hours of darkness that no one could explain, and at his death there had been a mighty earthquake in which graves were opened and many righteous dead arose who went into Jerusalem on Sunday. The curtain in the temple split from top to bottom at the hour of his death. Everyone in Jerusalem was undoubtedly in some kind of panic. Even nature was careening out-of-control. Can you imagine how terrifying and ominous Friday must have felt to everyone when God withdrew his presence froom Jesus and even from the land as symbolized by the unnatural darkness? The priests did not rest that Sabbath; they did the very secular act of visiting Pilate privately and arranging to have the tomb guarded in case the disciples stole the body. I'm absolutely convinced that those priests feared Jesus would rise again; after all, he had raised Lazarus just weeks before, and nothing about him could be controlled. That Sabbath had to be a day of terror in Jerusalem. Nothing was the same; the temple's "holiness" had been desecrated supernaturally; the Sanhedrin was out-of-control with fear of Jesus and what might happen; Jesus' loved ones and followers were depressed and scared and guilt-ridden, as Thomas pointed out. Jesus' death had not stamped Sabbath with a divine signature of peace and rest. Rather, his death had created an uproar and had loosed wide-spread horror and fear and terror, and they entered Sabbath in the wake of an earthquake that had caused the rocks to split. (Matthew 27:51) Sunday was the day of deep joy, rest for souls that loved Jesus, resolution, life, and peace. The shadow of Jesus was forevermore overwhelmed by the glory of the risen Lord! Colleen | ||
| Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore) |
Thomas, I'm one of those who most assuredly has a problem with the word "easter" instead of "Resurrection Day." Also, bunny rabbits, eggs and all that blarney has no Biblical significance nor can Scripture be found to state such terms. That's my whole contention. I KNOW Jesus Christ HAS RISEN. So, how did the term "easter" get mixed into this bag? Why not call it what it was and is? For it is our HOPE......."Resurrection." I celebrate Christs Death and Resurrection. Maybe it's all my problem but then do some research as to the term 'easter' and where it comes from. Simply put, whatever name everyone wants to call it, doesn't mean that I just follow the crowd. I call it RESURRECTION. There are no bunny rabbits, eggs of fertility etc.. That would be, FOR ME (this applies to ME and ME only), intermingling God with the gods. That's how I feel folks. No, I'm not a heathen, nor an apostate, nor a heretic. I'm a Christian who has a problem with pagan symbols being intermixed with our REAL CELEBRATION of RESURRECTION. There is no way my heart will allow me to engage mixing the two. And Thomas, thank you for pointing out such a vivid picture as to what those disciples were doing on the Sabbath. Great picture of truth in my head over that! God Bless you. your sister in Christ Jesus, even He who Died for the ungodly thereby reconciling us to God and was Resurrected on the 3rd day, proving He was who He claimed He was and we too, shall one day be Resurrected! Denise, who doesn't just follow the useless traditions of men because, in their words, "that's the way we always have done this." No, rather, I live by the Word of God with His Holy Spirit teaching me. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Angie, For what it's worth, Fredrick Price doesn't sit well with me. He has said that Sunday is not the Sabbath and praise God he got that one but lots of things he says I sort of get a weird feeling about. Watch Ron Phillips instead at 8:00 am Sundays! LOL  There is a big sign right down the road from our church that says Saturday is the Lord's Day Sunday is the Mark of the Beast. Our pastor said, again this Sunday that Jesus is our Sabbath rest "no matter what the 'signs' say and that Sunday is not the Sabbath so if you want to go and play golf after church don't let anyone tell you not to." Glad you found a church Angie. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Angie, I'm also glad you found a church. I continue to pray for you and your husband. Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
I was at a relatives home this past week visiting. They are a young couple with two wonderful, adorable children. The husband is a graduate of Andrews and is an Adventist pastor. He is the youth pasdtor of many different congreations in their region as well as assistant pastor of the congreation that they attend each week. I noticed the young wife has three rings on the fingers of one hand and one ring on a finger of the other hand. I didn't say anything because I like pretty jewlery but I did think it odd that a sda ministers wife would wear so much jewlery as she also had on a necklace. Then their precious little three year old daughter said to me, "Watch me Susan. Watch me". I know little kids like to show their stuff and have an audience of one and bethe center of attention so I gave my little cousin my full attention. Well, the jumped up and down several times and then she spinned in a circle several times and then she attempted to walk on her towes. After going through what seemed a practiced routine she looked at me with such childish pride and said, "How'd I do, Susan? Did I do good?" I told her she did real good and by this time I was totally puzzled as to what was going on with the kid so I asked her mother, my yound cousin what her child was trying to get me to notice. My cousion, the wife of an Adventist minister looked at me and said, "Oh, she just came from her dancing lession and she wants to show you what she learned in dance class today". Then she told me after her little girl gets the hang of ballet they want to put her in more dance classes to learn other kinds of dances and she told me how adorable her precious child looks in her tootoo. Now, is dancing accepted by the sda denomination or are these young people, including the misister daddy just unaware of the churchs position on dancing or is it that this young couple is aware of the churchs position but they think it's a stupid position so the just do what they want anyway? I did not ask my cousin because I didn't want to get in to it with her but my guess is that they most likly don't even know the church is anti-dance. Remember, too, this is in Southeran California. I went to the sda church he is the pastor of and at the potluck was dishes with chicken. I did ask how come that was and I was told it is an ethnic church (Asian) and the people who attend there have such a culture of eating chicken that they have chicken often and sometimes beef dishes at the church potlucks. When did the sda church change? Or, did it change at all and this young couple just dosen't know? | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Susan, I will tell you that modern Adventism is undergoing a "facelift." Many of the things that used to be taboo within the demomination, now occur just below (and sometimers above) the surface. For example, you mentioned the fact that the wife was wearing jewelry. In the last Adventist church I was a member of, jewelry was not all that uncommon. Make-up was a commonplace. People did all manner of things on the Sabbath that would have been unheard of from a member in good standing when I was growing up. Some of the Elders' kids even participated in extra-curricular activities on Friday nights and Saturdays. Rather than this being a shift to a more gospel-centered focus, I think it is probably more indicative of apathy settling within the ranks. I also believe it has to do with generational differences. I recently was reading about how people who are what we call "veterans" (born between the depression and WWII) are more traditional and conformists in terms of their world view. Therefore the "rules" of Adventism made them very comfortable. "Babyboomers," on the other hand, (those borm between WWII and the Civil Rights movement), tend to be more goal oriented. They were raised by the "Veterans," so they still have remnants of conformity, but they also are looking to get all life has to offer for themselves and their kids, and therefore often find the "rules" to be in conflict with their goals. When these conflicts occur, they are less likely to be as rigid as their parents. Now the interesting group is the Generation X'ers, (born between the Civil Rights movement and 1980). They grew up watching their parents slave away on the proverbial hamster wheel (both secularly and spiritually), and want something different. If it doesn't make sense, they are not going to just sit back and take it quietly. I would hazard a guess that many of the "formers" come from this age group. They challenge the status quo. Lastly, there are the "nexters." They are those born since 1980 (r so). They are much more eclectic in their worldview. They are much more comfortable with ecumenicalism. I think this generational divide will ultimately be the demise of Adventism. Adventism's foundation is based on conformity--something that there just isn't a lot of within it's ranks today. People still put on a good face, but under the surface, there is a rejection of much of what Adventism really stands for. The statement, "this is not your father's Buick" could definitely be said about the SDA church. It is not the same church that many of us grew up in. The powers that be ("Veterans")are doing everything they can to hold it together, but can only do so much. If you were to take a poll of actual SDA members, you would find that what people believe (and practice), is vastly different than what the church teaches. Just my humble opinion. This was a round about way to addressing your statement. Hope it is useful. If not.... toss it. Doug | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Doug, I agree with you. The generations' world-views absolutely will shape (and have shaped) Adventism. In fact, Richard was saying to me this weekend that he suspects the church may gradually eliminate many of its "peculiar" practices without really saying anything about why. They'll just quietly disappear, and the nexters and their children will nearly (if not entirely) forget those things ever existed. For example, Richard heard an announcement at the beginning of the weekly broadcast from the La Sierra church this Saturday. It said that next weekend (I think) would be communion. Foot washing will not be part of the church service; it will be an optional ceremony held between Sabbath School and church in the usual rooms. If people's SS classes run late and they wish to participate in footwashing, they are to quietly slip out. It's not hard to see where this will lead. Young parents with small children in Sabbath School will be collecting their kids and doing bathroom runs before church, and the young families will not participate in footwashing. Those young parents are mostly late Gen Xers and maybe early nexters, and they propbably see no real reeason for footwashing. They'll not go, and furthermore, they'll not expose their kids to it at all. Their kids will grow up not really knowing about it--how or why it was done--and it will gradually disappear from church practice. I realize that probably most of us here agree that footwashing should not be part of communion. On the surface this possible abandonment of the practice looks good. The reality, though, is that EGW still taught footwashing. It is still in her books, and it's still an official practice of the Adventist church. Losing the practice without dealing with the underlying causes for the practice is like lowering a persistent fever with Advil without discovering and treating the underlying infection causing the fever. New generations of Adventist will grow up knowing less and less of the reality of Adventism and claiming fewer and fewer loyalties to the old traditions including EGW. In reality, though, those things are not being renounced; they are being supressed. Young Adventists are still held in the same spiritual bondage in which the older ones have been held. The really serious problem is that the source of bondage is becoming less and less identifiable. These surface changes are not changing the role of the Sabbath, the diminishing of the deity of Christ, the "Jesus as supplement" instead of "Jesus as Savior" (to quote our pastor yesterday!) mentality, the obsession with health and lifestyle, the compulsive but hidden struggles with family abuse and addictions and teenage pregnancies (persistent problems in at least one large, well-known SDA Academy in so. Cal), etc. These changes are making the church look much more evangelical, but the reality is that the kids know less than ever about either Adventism OR Jesus. Changing the surface without openly admitting the deceptions and renouncing the errors only makes the bondage more difficult to break. It's much like the Reformed Church of LDS. They're still Mormons, but they are proud to have left behind many of the odd practices. Richard got an email from Dale Ratzlaff this weekend of an article by a man named Henry Brown, an Adventist who was born in the late 1800's and who knew EGW and the church fathers who survived her. In 1984 (I believe--or was ot 82?), at the age of 91, he wrote his memoirs of working with and knowing these early Adventists. He tells of the pervasive knowledge of the fraudulent nature of Ellen's visions. He tells of talking with Elder Loughborough about why he preached that Jesus as God died, when Ellen said God did not die, only Jesus' human body. Loughborough replied that her statement should never have been printed. That second or third generation of Adventist leaders who survived Ellen's death had a widespread disbelief in her authenticity. But they decided, willfully, to put under wraps their knowledge of her deception so the people would not lose faith. The 1919 Bible conference (I believe transcripts are available on the web--I'd have to search for the source, though) clearly discuss their knowledge of her fraudulence and their decision to seal the records of the meeting for 50 years so the people wouldn't lose faith. (Read that so the structure and financial stability wouldn't fall down.) The deception in which the church began was perpetuated throughout the generations, and it's still being perpetuated. The leaders absolutely know the truth; they've just hidden it. In short, you're right, Doug. I believe we'll see many "face lifts". We may even see reforms. Reforms, however, will make no real difference without repentance. Praise God for his sovereignty and for the fact that he takes responsibility for calling us to himself! No deception perpetrated upon us can outwit God's sovereign will! Colleen | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
That seems about right based on what I have studied, Doug. I think it is interesting to discuss what you said about the generation changes presaging the demise of the denomination. Of course, it is not certain that the demise is inevitable. For myself, I suspect that there may not be a precipitous decline anytime soon. I say that because of a certain characteristic evident in the nature of the ìconformityî in the denomination. I could be way off here. However, I detect a certain type of adaptability in the things that have changed in the past. By that, I mean that the conformity has mostly been to the teaching as it was interpreted at the time and in the local environment of each congregation. Certainly, there were denominational limits placed on the variance. However, those limits seem to have always changed from period to period. Yet more interesting is the position by the denomination that the entire denomination was to be in strict alignment with a single policy, when, in fact, large variances were arbitrarily allowed while others were summarily quashed. The one principle that seems to have been immutable (once it was instituted in its final form) was the seventh day Sabbath and its relevance to the Second Coming. Yet even that has changed over the years. This dichotomy of change coupled with denial of mistake or error at all costs betrays the deception at the core of the doctrines of this denominiation. | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Colleen and Jerry, I think we are in agreement. Although the denomination is undergoing an almost imperceptible culture shift, the standard for what makes a "good Adventist," has not (and probably will not) change. Therefore, there will simply be more people who choose to remain on the sidelines, thinking that having their names on the rolls, or being a regular attender (even if they do skip Sabbath School and Prayer Meeting), qualifies them as being a part of God's Remnant Church and therefore guarantees (well as close as you can get on this earth) their salvation. The church is in a crisis, because the number of historic Adventists are decreaing. The church I attended previously is in a real leadership crisis because as pillars are leaving (for various reasons), there are few "historic Adventists" to fill their shoes. I have heard the accusation made on many occasions that many converts from other churches have brought their traditions (i.e. clapping, drums, etc.) into the church, thus lowering the standards. I expect this trend to continue. There is no telling where it will end up. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Cindy (Cindy) |
I think the changing face of Adventism breeds an even more dishonesty! An example in just one area: How can one agree with the "Fundamental Belief" in Ellen White as a "continuing and authoritative source of truth"... and yet not be acquainted with the "testimonies" she wrote. (Have any of you read the 9 volumes?!!) I could never stomach them for more than a few minutes... Adventism is such a cultural and social environment...especially if you are born into it...a cradle-to-grave arrangement in schooling and mindset that it has a powerful hold. To disagree with Adventism when one's family is entrenched in it takes more courage and stamina than I usually have. But I am so thankful I KNOW WHOM I have believed in... And I know JESUS is ABLE to KEEP me... Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Amen! Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
You all make some very astute observations. I occassionally like to read on www.watchthetower.org, it is a former jw website that ministers to jw's wanting to leave the jw organization. Back in the late 1960's and early 1970's thw watchtower organization ran a series of articles about the danger of using allumimun. In fact, I remember reading those articles in the jw publications. I doubt if any of the jw youth growing up now even know of such teachings that the organization taught back then. I have asked several jw youth if they were aware that their church taught that Jesus would come in 1975 and those young folks think i don't know what I'm talking about. The same is true with the sda. These surface changes only instill more deception. Now I have another question. Over here at the local sda church every week the minister has what he calls The Garden on Prayer. He invites the entire congreation to come to the front of the church and they all stand real super close to each other and take turns praying. It sort-of reminds me of trying to copy an Eucharist service only it it prayer and no Emblems are offered. I have newer partisipated, I just watch because to me it appears to be significant and they are not doing a very good job of what they are trying to accomplish. Have any of you been in an Adventist service lately and observed this, too? Please, explain. | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
I have not observed it, but I have heard of it. My wife talks about this (she is SDA, I never was) frequently. If I understand correctly, this is an initiative at the some conference level (perhaps the General Conference) to incorporate some of the ìWillow Creekî evangelical style into Adventism. You know, ìWeíre just plain old evangelical Christians folks like y'all . . . (except weíre the only ones with ëthe truth.í)î | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
I attended the Adventist Church in Laurel MD a few times and they also had a "Garden of Prayer." Anyone with a special burden could come to the altar and pray. The last church I attended did something similar. I am not sure of the significance of it. I always felt that God could hear me just fine from my seat. I guess it is supposed to be similar to the women with the issue of blood who took the additional effort to touch the hem of Jesus' garment. I don't think it is a particularly Adventist thing. Doug | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I first heard of the Garden of Prayer among Adventist churches in the Grand Terrace SDA church in the late 80's before the then-pastor founded Celebration Center. I've seen it done (I believe it's still a weekly happening) at Celebration Church. I doubt it's particularly Adventist, either. I may be wrong about where and when it started within Adventism, but I think it caught on when Celebration-style churches began to spring up after the one in So Cal was founded. Colleen | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
I have participated (at my sister's urging) in a Garden of Prayer at Celebration SDA Church in Redlands, CA where my sister attends. It seems like a nice enough practice.....unless you're a midwesterner like me and don't really like strangers coming around and touching (laying hands on) you while you have your eyes closed :-) Chris | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
Wow, I thought the SDA church I attend, when I can't think of a good excuse to stay home, was so avant guarde having a Garden of Prayer. Now it appears it is a GC mandate? Wow. They are having a huge clash of Old Guard vs. new bloods in this church. The drums have to go according to the Pillars of the church. Surprisingly a few of the Gen X families agree too...go figure. Anyway, you know the outcome. the money talks, the drums are going. Really sad. I have managed to only go to church twice this summer! Yippee. |
