| Author | Message | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 71 Registered: 9-2002 |
Melissa; I have tried to be a christian now for 4 or 5 years. Trying to be a christian is hard. You never know were you really stand with God. You can't take God at his word. Because this part and that part is not for you it is for somebody else. But this part is for us we do this part and not that part. Being a Christian is a very complicated thing. You don't really have any direction to go. People say the Holy Spirit will tell you what to do. I am on another thread on the Forum and it has been about 4 or 5 years since I have had really tried to live a life of God and I am still waiting for the Holy Spirit to change my mind that 70 plus % of the bible is not for us today. I just can't throw away over 4000 years of what is written in the bible and call it as "Pheeki" says that is a different Gospel. That to me says God changes. Why would he do that? None of this is a question. I am giving a little background on myself befor i get into asking. speakeasy | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 247 Registered: 7-2000 |
Well, as Yoda said to Luke Skywalker 'Don't try, DO!'. God doesn't change, but His method of dealing with people does based on their situation. When the law was given at Sinai, it was a special revelation of God. That law, given in the form of a covenant, was designed to build a nation along with give detailed instruction in various types of sin and how to deal with sinners. No, it couldn't be kept perfectly, but there was a 'safety' valve and that was the sacrificial system. By sacrificing an animal, along with the yearly Day of Atonement, God forgave these folks for their sins. So, I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that millions are lost under this system. Under the New Covenant, the Holy Spirit is now active and living within which wasn't the case in the Old Testament. Why? It seems to be because of Christs' death on the cross and the fact that he now holds the keys of death and hades. Anyway, the New Covenant commands are found in the New Testament along with a restatement of the Ten Commandments which does not include the Sabbath. So, what verses are not for us? See what the verse says and ask 'does this contradict the information/commands given in the New Testament?'. For example, the old law had dietary restrictions--but in the new covenant it is clear that these laws no longer apply. These restrictions were a special law designed for the nation of Israel and not for today. As for 70% of the Bible not being for us today---well, it's mainly the Pentuatech which is the first five (of 66 books) of the Bible. Hardly 70%----wouldn't you agree? Speakeasy, your questions are good. Keep asking and I'll try to answer them. I'd suggest getting a book on hermaneutics---big fancy word for how to study the Bible. 'Living by the Book' by Kendricks is an easy way to start and you can also buy a workbook for it. Bill........... | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 87 Registered: 3-2004 |
When I first started studying my way out of Adventism, although I didn't realize that was what it was at the time, I studied Acts verse by verse. I'm quite sure that I was impressed to do this because as SDA I didn't have a clue about the Holy Spirit. It was just a name to throw into prayers and ask for, but I'd never seen or felt any evidence of His presence. Once I better understood the Holy Spirit, I studied out all the different covenants for myself. For me, God took me where I was as a linear, left-brained person and had to rewire me to a more biblical worldview. Gradually, I have better comprehended the difference between the law under the Old Covenant and walking in the Spirit under the New Covenant. It sounds as though you still have some demonic cords holding you to your SDA baggage. Perhaps when you find conflicting thoughts entering your mind, you can stop and identify the source. God is not the author of confusion so when that happens, just rest in Jesus and take your time sorting it all out. Praise God... | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 329 Registered: 1-2003 |
Speakeasy. You are obviously trying to process what I said in my posts but somewhere the wires are getting crossed. I never said God changes...but let God out of the box...just because we can't fully understand His ways doesn't mean He isn't perfectly justified in what He does...He is God you know. No, I don't believe he changed His plan of salvation at all...the Bible clearly states that a promise was given to Abraham and when the Law came along 430 years later it didn't annul the promise. Faith has always been how we are saved, the Law never saved anyone. It is human's and human reasoning that throws people into confusion about the Law, but most of them have made the Law their God, not the law giver...Jesus/God. You will find this in the Messianic Jewish community...the Law has the glory that Christ should have. Let me ask you a quesion, have you run into some Messianics? I noticed you used Messiah as a term for Jesus, common in Messianic circles. That would explain some of what you are questioning. Plus, you are looking to us for answers when you should be praying and digging into your bible (I too do and have done this...but I have learned to let God speak individually to me and not try to go to other humans for the answer). But, I want you to know I am here to support you...however, let God lead you. You are a believer, your salvation is assurred...rest in Jesus and don't fear. Faith refuses fear... Jesus said, " Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid." God bless you. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 360 Registered: 7-2003 |
Being a Christian isn't something you earn. you either are or aren't, depending upon your faith in Christ. Weak faith is still faith. Like a new baby, you have to exercise those muscles in a healthy, safe environment. I'm not sure you've had that. Does God change? I guess it depends upon how you define change. The bible has several instances where God clearly has changed his mind about a course of action, but does that mean God, who he is, has changed? It's a legitimate question. When God says he doesn't change, I take that to mean he doesn't become a liar or start tempting people with evil or some of the other things the Bible says God does not do. But God is God and I cannot explain him in my finite mind, but I HAVE to believe the Bible or I have no anchor. Without the Bible being the word of God and the source of truth, we really have no common starting point. Yes, much of it is historical in nature, but there has never been another way to be saved. It has never involved keeping commandments. You have to let the Bible explain itself. The Bible says that Jesus was God's plan from the foundation of the world. (1 Peter 1:19-20) That tells me he wasn't surprised by Adam and Eve's sin, and he isn't by mine either. It also tells me he's changed nothing, just following his plan. The Bible says the law was "until the seed" (Galatians 3:15-19). Verse 16 tells us the seed is Christ. Verse 19 answers your question: Why the law? it was added because of transgressions UNTIL the seed would come... The law was to keep people until faith was revealed. (vs.23) So what does that say of those before Christ?? Check out Hebrews 11.... vs 4 by faith Abel... vs 5 by faith Enoch... vs 7 by faith Noah... vs 8 by faith Abraham... vs 11 through faith Sara... vs 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them and embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrim on the earth. vs 20 by faith Isaac... vs 21 by faith Jacob... vs 22 by faith Joseph... vs 23 by faith Moses... vs 28 by faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, so that he who destroyed the firstborn would not touch them....[did the blood protect them, or the faith that applied the blood??] vs 29 by faith they passed through the red sea vs 30 by faith ...jericho vs 31 by faith Rahab vs 32...Gedeon, barak, sampson, jephthae, david, samuel and the prophets...subdued kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions.... All that Old Testament stuff was accomplished by faith, not by law. That same faith makes us Christians. I don't think it's so complex being a Christian, it's just complex when we try to figure out how to usurp God's plan for our lives and get what we want in his name. Learning to walk in faith by the Spirit is intimidating, but I highly recommend it. The argument of waiting for the Holy Spirit to change your mind can go both ways. Your presumption seems to be the law is for us, and someone has to prove it isn't. Can I test that a bit? How many civilizations and nations does God send us to kill? The point, I hope, is evident that there are things that are merely historical. Does that mean we can't learn something from them? Absolutely not. As long as we're learning the lessons God was teaching and not creating our own ideologies. What if you let go of your presumption and asked the Holy Spirit to guide you into an honest search of scripture. Not a verse here and there, but whole books. The recommendation to read Galatians is really good for your background. But you have to be willing to let go of presumptions. Following Christ is easy in some ways and hard in others. As Bill said, though, you have to do some of the work yourself. God is waiting on you ... He loves you and sent Christ for you. Look to Him and don't rely on what other people have said, look at what God himself has said. If you have accepted Christ as your savior, stop doubting. Christ will not leave you. The journey you are on is a lifelong process. There usually aren't lightening bolts to change feelings and whole lifestyles, though i've heard of them occasionally. Most of it is a transformation one day at a time. I'm praying for you. | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 72 Registered: 9-2002 |
loneviking; Yes about 70% or all of the Old Testament is not for a christian and obsolete. The book of psalms and even Isaiah and All throughout the Old Testament. The law and covenants and rules of the Mosiac laws and are all throughout the Old Testament it is embedded in the Old Testament. I don't understand when I am told just the Torah is not for us today. But every preacher and christian will use scripture from a passage form the Old Testament and the Law is there. And the preacher or a person will not even care if the Law is part of that passage but they will pluck out the line that they want. How come we can not use ALL of Psalms the Pslams starts aout saying I love the and delight in the Law. I just don't understand? I am mixed up. There has got to be a list or something that tells me what verses we are supposed to follow? If there is not a list of some sort telling me and you what verses are for us today. Then we need to follow the contents in the bible. Doing it another way you are risking your relationship with God? I maybe wrong but this makes me fear God all the more. You never really know if you are okay with God. Because you really do not do what God says to do. speakeasy | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 73 Registered: 9-2002 |
Praisegod; My conflicting thoughts come from being around Sunday keeping people. Because they do not (Like me) follow what is in the bible. I guess that is everybody even Saturday Keepers do not do what is in the bible. I have a feeling very few people will really get to heaven. The first time God came for his people only 8 people made it to Heaven. I try but I can not even do what is in the New Testament. When Paul writes "Stay away from all forms of Evil" I can not do that no one can. We say that we are not under the law. But If I use the lords name in vain. The law says "I will be held accountable" If I use the lords name in vain. Have I broke one of the 10 Commandments? I am so confused and Mixed up. But I am still trying my hardest to hang in there. speakeasy | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 74 Registered: 9-2002 |
Pheeki; I was once a messianic. And we kept the Law. All of the Sabbaths were still to be observed. speakeasy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 315 Registered: 12-2003 |
Speakeasy, I won't repeat everything I wrote on the other thread where you also asked a question. I'll just say this: the Torah is still for us, just in a different way than it was for Israel. The Torah gives all the cermonies and symbols that pointed to Jesus; we need the Torah in order to KNOW that Jesus was the promised Messiah, because He fulfilled ALL of those symbols! If we didn't have the Torah, we'd have no way to know that Jesus is really the promised Redeemer. Only He fulfills all the prophecies and the laws and rituals Israel observed as they waited for Him. Speakeasy, I also agree with Melissa, that you are a Christian or you aren't. If you are, put your trust in Jesus--even though you have great fear uncertainty--and allow Him to transform you. You must be willing to give up all your previous understandings and immerse yourself in the New Testament, asking the Holy Spirit to give you understanding and to show you how it is related to and how it fulfills the Old. The bottom line, though, is you must be willing to give up what you think you believe. If Jesus really is the answer, then He will not let you fall or abandon you to sin. Unless you let go of your fascination with the law, however, and allow the person of Jesus to take its place in your heart, you will never know whether or not He is enough. You have to risk trusting Him completely, with nothing else to hold onto. Imemrse yourself in His word, and pray for His wisdom and conviction and courage. Colleen | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 603 Registered: 7-2000 |
The suggestion to read Galatians is excellent. But Speakeasy, when you read it, read it through as much as you can in one setting, not a handful of verses at a time. That way you will get the whole flow of what he is saying. It sounds like you are confused about the purpose of the law. The law was given to let people see for themselves that it was entirely impossible for them to be righteous by their own attempts to do right things. It's a bit like a mirror that God uses to show us what we already are and our hopelessness to fix the situation. As Pheeki pointed out to you, Galatians calls the law a "tutor". The original Greek word that is today translated as "tutor"was "paidagogos". Tutor is the closest thing in our vocabulary today. But it doesn't really represent the idea that was being conveyed. The "paidagogos" in Greek society was a trusted servant of the master. The master placed his son in the care of this servant. The servant always carried a stick to make the son go in the right direction. In other words, the paidagogos beat the child. But the servant did not teach the son, his job was to drive the son to the teacher. The law is the "paidagogos", it drives us to the teacher with a stick. It beats us up, or condemns as we are told in the New Testament where it is also called the ministry of death. Once we are connected with the teacher, the "paidagogos" job is finished. The teacher himself takes over our instruction. The first question really is "have you accepted Jesus as your Saviour?" To accept him as Saviour means that you have to admit to Him that you know it is completely hopeless for you to be righteous. Your only hope is to allow Christ to take His righteousness and place it over you....this is what happens when we accept Christ as Savior. And it is how we know where we stand with God, according to the scriptures, if we have received His son as our Saviour, then we are His children. Your life after that time is a process of getting to know Him and getting to know who you are as this "child of God". It is relationship, not looking at a checklist of rules. It is going through sruggles of learning who you are in Christ. You will definitely stumble and fall and get bumps and bruises, just like a little kid does when he is learning how to walk. When the kid messes up, even when he has done something wrong intentionally, the good parent doesn't stand over him and yell, "you stupid kid! I told you not to run out in the street and now you've gotten run over, you deserved it! I want nothing to do with you now." No, the good parent picks the kid up, takes care of the wounds, and helps the kid learn not to do something stupid again. This side of heaven we are never going to do everything perfectly. | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 76 Registered: 9-2002 |
Like I stated in my post before. I have excepted God as my saviour 4 or so years ago. So Excepting what is contained for my salvation is not my point. I am I guess what you call saved. But how can I say I am one with God or Jesus when I personaly do not do what God says to do? You have to admit. We all know it is a sin to use the lords name in vain. If you do use the lords name in vain. The Torah says "you will be held accountable" If the torah says this and God said he will hold a person accountable for this. Do we take God at his word when he said this? or is this only the Old testament and not for us today? I think it is for us today. Just like it says to keep the sabbath for all generations. When God said this,Do we take God at his word also on this matter? I would say NO ! We only say that the sabbath is a pointer to the Messiah. How does a person read the bible and see things that are contained in the bible and it says to do this and not do that. And you or I defy and Go ahead and go against what is contained in the bible. Are we pleasing God? I have read and read and studyed and studyed Galations over and over. Galations says to me that The law is the Knoweledge of Sin. This says to me and maybe not anybody else. If I covet something and the law says if you covet. I have sinned ! If I kill someone. That Law says. I have Sinned ! BUT If I break the Seventh day Sabbath. And the law says I have sinned. Are all of you telling me I Have NOT sinned ? This is to does not make since. What is sin? I guess it is NOT the Law. This does not make since. I am trying to understand what you all are saying but it goes against what the Bible says. What the Law is! "It is the Knowledge of Sin" Tyring to understand why I can break the law and not have to worry about it. Mixes me up and says why was the law even given if we can just not have to worry about it. I am trying to understand what all of you are saying. But I just don't know if it is true what is being said. speakeasy. | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 248 Registered: 7-2000 |
Well, let me wade in here and see if I can help some of this make sense. Speakeasy, you ask 'what is sin'? Sin is, bottom line, going against the will of God. Galatians 3:17 and 19 make clear that the 'law' came in at Sinai and was to last until Christ should come. The law (Torah) was a special revelation of God. Hebrews 9:4 refers to the tables of the covenant. On these tables were written, at the least, the Ten Commandments. Hebrews 8:13 says that this covenant, these tables are obsolete and passing away. Does that mean that there was no right or wrong before this time? No. Romans 2:12, 15 make clear that every human is born with a conscience which serves as the basis for an inner law---a law which can accuse or defend their actions. This has been termed a general revelation of God. This general revelation of God, along with the commands of the New Testatment and the Holy Spirit which guides us daily is now the basis for a new covenant. We have new commands--some of which resemble some of the old testament commands. So, can you agree that the 'Law' came in at Sinai and did not exist before Sinai nor after Christ? Or do I need to go into more detail? I really want to help you understand this, but be aware that this may take some time....... | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 249 Registered: 7-2000 |
Along with the law, Speakeasy, I have to ask what your view of the inspiration of scripture is. Do you belive in verbal inspiration--or thought inspiration? Do you know the difference? Are the words important--or are the thoughts/ideas behind the words more important? Bill......... | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 92 Registered: 3-2004 |
It seems, Speakeasy, that you feel that under the New Covenant we have less requirements and that you aren't obeying God. In reality, the requirements of the New Covenant are much higher and different than under the Old Covenant. I can follow the Old Covenant to the letter and still hate people. I can hold bitterness and resentment and be plotting revenge and still technically be obeying all the laws. Under the New Covenant, this is just not possible. Jesus clarified that "murder" was extended to hating your brother. Adultery included lusting. Jesus, through the Holy Spirit is now dealing with us from the inside out. As we yield ourselves totally to him, it is awesome how we are dealt with on specific issues for our individual character. With that inner witness we know that Jesus loves us--individually--because we are in constant communication with him. "My sheep hear my voice..." This is my personal feeling on the differences between the Covenants that I came to after my studies. I hope it makes some sense to you. Praise God... | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 77 Registered: 9-2002 |
Loneviking you asked before the law, Was there no right or wrong? Yes there was the bible says before the law there was no accounting for sinning. Or close to somthing like that. I think Paul said "Before the law I was happy and then the law came and Now I am a unhappy man" It is pretty clear that the law (the 10 Commandments) is the knowledge of sin. I do agree that the Mosiac law came in effect when the nation of Israel was taken out of Eygpt. But again like I posted before. If God changes and he changes and goes against what he said and has given to you and me in his word. How can you trust God! How can you trust a God that 1000's of years later. Then comes and says that what he said before even though I am god. "What I said before Is not true and DO NOT follow what I said before." This does not make since. I understand that it will take time for you to explain what you are getting at. But you need to understand. speakeasy | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 78 Registered: 9-2002 |
Loneviking; I don't understand your question? "Do you belive in verbal inspiration--or thought inspiration" I believe that when God said "That the Seventh Day needs to be kept" Then I take him at his word that "The Seventh Day needs to be kept" Just like when God said "For I am God and there is no God before me and after" I believe what he said. I better not go down that path quite yet. But yes whan God says that"You will keep the Sabbaths for you and all of your Generations" then I believe that he will not go against what he said before and change what he stated. But I may not be answereing your question correctly. If not explain what you mean. Loneviking you have been very nice to me in my stuborness and blindness on what you are trying to explain. Thanks speakeasy | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 79 Registered: 9-2002 |
Praisegod; You stated that. "It seems, Speakeasy, that you feel that under the New Covenant we have less requirements and that you aren't obeying God. In reality, the requirements of the New Covenant are much higher and different than under the Old Covenant." This is not true. If you count in the New Testament. That there is over 1,100 does and don't. Now there is not things like "Thou shalt not" type commands but the N.T. is full of rules. the problem that I have. Where is the list that can tell me that this part of the bible I don't have to worry about! and that command or this command or that part is okay to break and not worry that God said "You Shall surely die" If you break that law. This all is very confusing to me when people pick and choose from the bible. I do it as well. But at least I want to trust the complete word of God.(The last statement is NOT pointed at any one on the forum) I may not post much for a few months I really need to re-think and absorb if all of these things that are contained in this forum is true. I am very confused about all of this. I have to make my mind up. Do I go against what God has written and said or keep what he said. I also have to make my mind up. Can I trust the complete word of God and not part of it. This is not pointed at anyone on the forum. This is what I HAVE TO figure out. I know most people on the forum has already made there mind up about this. And I can tell that the people that have done this have moved on from this topic. So I may not post for a few months just like I didn't for almost 20 months. Keep up the good work and keep Gods word in that all of it is true. You guys have a great heart and the patience that does help people. speakeasy | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 250 Registered: 7-2000 |
Speakeasy, I think you have a basic misunderstanding of HOW the Bible was received and this is really causing confusion in how to approach the word. The SDA church, along with some Messianic congregations, teach that the messages in the Bible came through 'thought'. The writer then used whatever writings or experiences that he had to explain the 'thought' that had come to him. SDA's say that this is why EG White copied as much as she did. She had been shown something, but didn't know how to express what she had been shown, so she borrowed from the writings of others to express what she was shown. What this leads to is an approach to the Bible that says 'well, I know that's what it says, but what it means is'. An excellent example of this is found in Revelation where the same word for 'eternal' is used to refer to BOTH the inheritance of the saved and the future of the lost. But, SDA's refuse to accept that hell is eternal because it goes contrary to their doctrine and prophet. So, they resort to twisting texts out of context to go against what the Bible plainly says. Verbal inspiration, by contrast, says that the authors of the books of the Bible were verbally given messages by the Holy Spirit which they then wrote down. Many times they didn't understand the message that was given to them! Do a search through a concordance for 'word' and 'Holy Spirit'---you'll see that there is just no basis for the idea of thought inspiration. Here are some texts to get you going: 2 Peter 1:21,23; 2 Tim. 3:16,16; Matt. 10:19,20 and Acts 6:10; 1 Thess. 2:13; John 6:63; John 12:49,50; John 16:13,; John 17:8; Dan. 7:1 and 9:23; Ezek. 3:1 and Luke 1:70..... You also really need to study the two covenants. The Sinai covenant was WITH the Jews, was FOR the Jews and was uniquely structured for a homogenous group living in a small land. The laws of that covenant would never work worldwide. That is why Colossians refers to these laws as a barrier that had to be destroyed to create a new man in Christ Jesus. Well, let me stop for now and see how you are doing with what I've written so far. Don't feel like you have to run off as there are several of us here who would love to patiently show you the answers to your questions. Bill | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 84 Registered: 9-2002 |
Loneviking I read the verses that you stated thank you for those. I don't understand all of the verses and what they mean. But I get the general idea. speakeasy | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 158 Registered: 3-2004 |
Speakeasy, I have been praying for you that God will do for you as he has done for me. When I open my Bible to read or study, I ask God to teach me and to show me what he wants me to learn. He has done that. So, I will write my prayer, Father in Heaven, you who are the Creator of this world and are such an awesome God, please teach Speakeasy what you want her to learn. Keep Satan away from her with his confusion. Fill her with your Holy Spirit. Open her eyes and ears to your truth. Give her the peace that passes all understanding that comes only from you. You are the Almighty God, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and you created each one of us. You created Speakeasy and know exactly what she needs. Be with her now as only you know how to be with each of us. Thank you God for answering this prayer. You have promised to be with us, you have promised us the Holy Spirit. You have promised to open our eyes and ears, so Thank you for doing this for Speakeasy. you are truly an awesome God. Diana |
