| Author | Message | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 116 Registered: 10-2001 |
PS, BTW, I love Charles Stanley and watch him regularly. I don't think you can go wrong with him. And there are sites that speak against even him, I saw one article posted on another site and they even had one about Billy Graham if you can believe that. | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 89 Registered: 3-2004 |
I can certainly second that the Holy Spirit often works ìoutside the boxî of what our critical former nature can accept. Several months ago I was having a particularly bad time with more severing of some Adventist friendships. Some friends and I attended a meeting in a nearby town and the speaker was speaking on the presence of God. While sitting quietly in the audience I started getting strong waves of sweet smelling perfume come over me. At first I thought someone had come in behind me wearing strong perfume, yet it was more like scented anointing oil. But it soon became obvious that it was supernatural. It would come in strong waves, then quit instantly, then return in strong waves. My three friends experienced none of this. I knew that it was just a special gift from the Holy Spirit during a time period when I needed some individual comfort. (Itís bringing tears to my eyes as I remember this hug from God.) Anyway, the story goes on to a couple of months later. A friend and I had gone to visit in the home of a woman who ministers to Moslem women. For years she was married to a Moslem and her husband divorced her when she became a Christian. We were there to offer some special comfort and prayer support as she has often had her life threatened. At the end of our meeting, she told us she wanted to give us something. She had made up some scented anointing oil from oil from the Holy Land and various other fragrances from the Bible. It was her own recipe. When I smelled it, I was excited because it was the exact same scent I had smelled in the meeting. I told her about the meeting and the name of the speaker. It turns out that several months earlier she had been in a meeting on the opposite side of the nation. During the course of this conference, she spent hours weeping as the Holy Spirit dealt with her on being willing to be a martyr for the Moslem women if necessary. And the meeting where she released herself to Godóyou guessed itóthe speaker was the same one as when I smelled the scent. So not only was I blessed by this unusual manifestation, but in turn by relating the story to her, she was blessed. God so works in mysterious ways. Praise GodÖ | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 602 Registered: 7-2000 |
Praisegod, I too have had the experience of smelling annointing oil in a service. When I told the pastor about it he replied that he had thought several times during the ministry time of getting the annointing oil, but every time the thought came to him, he found he was unable to move his feet. Again, this is something that I surely couldn't come up with a verse to back up. Those who have never experienced some of these things will tend to think of these as really odd, or the very unusual things that God will only do sparingly. I see them very differently. I've come to realize that these more "unusual" touches of the Spirit of God are absolutely no different then those times when, for instance, something spoken in a sermon really hits home, or a verse suddenly comes to mind at the moment you desperately needed it. It's just God being intimately involved with His people. Deb, again, these are not experiences that we seek out. They are just things that happen in the normal flow of Christian life. It's a little like your husband bringing you a beautiful rose for no particular reason necessarily. Personally I wonder if God may just do it because of our learning style. I am a hands on learner. Just hearing words is not as effective as me actually physically being involved in doing something to learn. I was reminded again by my moms speech therapist yesteday that it has been recognized for many years that the more of the senses that are used when a message is delivered: sound, sight, touch, etc. the more likely the person is to remember it. Maybe that's why when Jesus was here He didn't just talk to the people about the Father, He also demonstrated the truth of what He was saying by His miraculous works. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 622 Registered: 11-2002 |
Do any of you watch Dr. Gene Scott? I just love that guy and I like his wifes singing, too. | ||
| Debandhenry Registered user Username: Debandhenry Post Number: 14 Registered: 6-2004 |
WOW, I got ducky bumps from neck to toes reading about the responses to slain in the spirit reported by ya'll. I know my son has not seen this, nor have I or been in a church this has happened. I have gotten that very warm fuzzy feeling in prayer or lying in my bed thinking of God and the bible study I did that day. I am going through memopause really bad and these are not Hot Flashes. That was such a great feeling to have God give me the I am here feeling. Thanks to all for clarifing this for me and now I can pass it on to Henry, he was curious also. I saw a program today that I had not seen since 1998, it is called Quick Study with Ron Hembree, I used to watch it on a regular basis untill a SDA friend said it would be bad in the long run. Has anyone seen this program? I need advice on another friendship matter with our friends who are still in the church and we are still friends and they are not on the board and we continue to have dinner and coffee etc. and they never bring up us leaving but the atmosphere is not the same, if you know what I am trying to say. There is something missing, maybe it's the common SDA things we used to share and talk about? What have or do any of you suggest for us in this matter? We love them like family and have spent holidays together etc. and this is heavy on our hearts. Have a great night all and God Bless, Deb  | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 145 Registered: 3-2004 |
Praisegod, As I read about the smell of the anointing oil, I got a nice warm feeling. It is awe inspiring how God works. Diana | ||
| Sharon2 Registered user Username: Sharon2 Post Number: 28 Registered: 6-2004 |
Debandhenry, Keep your friendship with your Adventist friends. As time passes the awkwardness will pass and you will find that the Holy Spirit will give you things to share that will touch them. As you grow in the Lord, they will be amazed because they expected your life to fall apart. It will provoke them to ask questions and give you an opportunity to share. That has been my experience. | ||
| Sharon2 Registered user Username: Sharon2 Post Number: 29 Registered: 6-2004 |
I see there is a great interest in being slain in the spirit. This may scare some of you, but in Early Writings, EGW tells about a prayer meeting where everyone was slain in the spirit; although, she does not use that term. I have been slain in the spirit a number of times and each time, God dealt with a specific problem in my life. If you want to hear someone ( not one of your send-me-an-offering TV evangelists) go to these 2 websites. http://www.healing2thenations.net/news/03-04-16.htm http://www.vcfw.com/sermonz.html I have been blown away by what the Lord is doing through this woman. Her name is Heidi Baker. But in order for Heidi to be a vessel that he can use to multiply food, heal the unhealable, bring thousands to the Lord etc. God blows her away: slain in the spirit, drunk like the apostles at Pentecost. And she is so willing to be Godís vessel that she doesnít care how ridiculous she looks. I saw her in a video. She was on the floor with a microphone because she could not stand. She laughingly told the convention (this was a big meeting) that she had a PhD in Theology from an Ivy League University. And, if they could see her now, they would take it away! When I listen to her, I keep saying, ìLord, make the necessary changes in me so that I really donít care about all the normal things people care about. I really want to care about doing your business!î | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 87 Registered: 2-2003 |
I should like to comment on one or two things, now I have some time, but I am not sure how to put it together so it is coherent. Still, here goes. On the idea of people being criticised, on the Net or otherwise. I think the issues can be very complex here. Letís say, someone is a total heretic. In that case, the person criticising will want to protect others from being led astray by the false teaching. Or the person may be proclaiming the pure gospel. In that case, then someone who opposes the pure gospel will criticise them. Jesus said, if they hated me, they will hate you as well ñ John 15: 18. Things get more complicated in the case of mixed messages (I got this from Derek Prince, by the way, who may not be everyoneís favourite, but he makes a good point here). If someone preaches a mixed message, which is partially true and partially false, then some will see the good and accept the bad as well, whereas others will see the bad, and reject the good as well. This obviously leads to division and argument. The Scriptural counsel here is, test all things, hold fast to what is good ñ 1 Thess 5: 21. A great many people, however, prefer to either accept the whole, or reject the whole, because that requires less effort. As I have been a Christian for quite a while, I guess I have developed a ìfilter,î so I can read material of all kinds of theological persuasions, and get something out of it, but if it contains unbiblical teaching, then I just donít take any notice of that bit. Kenneth Hagin, who may not be everyoneís favourite either, said, when you hear a message, chew it over, swallow the meat and split out the bones. Another point to consider, is that if someone is preaching a message which is partially or totally false, it may be that they are trying to deceive people in order to build their own reputation, gain power or fame, get rich, etc., or it may be that they are teaching stuff they genuinely believe is from God, but they are just wrong; they are deceived themselves. Or of course, they may have mixed motives, which in any case are difficult to avoid. I have on occasions seen the damage indiscriminate criticism can cause on a personal level. I have known people who were genuinely on fire for God, and preached the truth, encouraged people to change, and for that they received all kinds of attacks from traditionalists, whose main concern was just to protect their own interests. This involved criticising all kinds of things that were pretty meaningless or irrelevant, but obviously it is very hurtful, so in the end the person stopped listening to the attacks all together. This person then did something that actually was wrong, or unwise, or made a mistake, and was attacked for that too. Although the criticism was in this case justified, it was not necessarily made in a Christ-like manner, so it was ignored as well, and the person continued in the error. This, of course, was not a good thing. I do not know what the answer is here. I personally take the approach that I am happy to criticise a certain theological position, taking the Bible as a basis, but I am less happy about attacking people on a personal level, ad hominem style. If I find myself in the position I need to correct someoneís error, I try to do this on the basis of relationship, i.e. that person knows I love them, and am concerned for them, and I am not trying to destroy them on a personal level. A final point is that when someone is criticised, it is worth while looking at the approach taken by the person doing the criticising. Do they believe the pure gospel, are they against it, or do they have a mixed message themselves? Are they defending the Word of God, or a particular theological position based on a certain Scriptural interpretation? As I said, the issues can be very complex. I would suggest we should stick with the Bible, and made sure we are led by the Holy Spirit! More in the next post:- Adrian | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 88 Registered: 2-2003 |
Concerning the Charismatic discussion: I would consider myself Pentecostal/Charismatic too, but I should also like to explain what I mean by that. Reading some of the discussion, it would seem some people equate Charismatic either with loud-mouthed extroverts, or with modern style worship, or with falling on the floor in meetings. Personally, that is not the way I understand it. (I am actually a rather quiet, academic type ìin the natural.î Not at all extroverted. I far prefer to sit quietly and think, and let others be in the limelight). (Sorry, but this may sound like another of those, on the one hand, but on the other hand posts!) First, I should say I am certainly in favour of exuberant worship. I am not against falling on the floor either. I myself have, on occasions, fallen on the floor in the power of the Spirit (I have also had people try to push me over, but I just refuse to fall over if that happens). I have both laughed and cried in the Spirit, both in meetings and in private, and God has on such occasions done deep things in my life, BUTÖ For me this has happened rather rarely, and it is not the essence of being Pentecostal. For me it basically means that we believe the gifts of the Spirit (charismata, hence charismatic), as taught by Paul in 1 Cor 12-14 are just as valid for the church today as they were in the first century. We not only believe in the gifts, we also practise them in our church meetings. So as the Spirit leads, we speak in tongues, interpret, prophecy, pray for healing, receive words of knowledge, etc.. This is done by ìthe body,î i.e. everyone, as prompted by the Spirit, all for mutual edification. It also means that when I pray in my own quiet time, I pray quite a lot in tongues as well as in my own language. The reason I believe tongues is for prayer is because the Bible says so - 1 Cor 14: 13-19. Paul is saying here that he refrained from speaking in tongues in public, as it did not edify others, but he used the gift for private prayer. As I have moved in such circles, and taken part in meetings like these for over twenty years, it does not seem at all unusual to me. I have seen a lot of false stuff as well as genuine, but that just needs to be tested and filtered out, just like bad teaching. I know this is not everyoneís experience, but anyway, that is what ìcharismaticî is for me. God bless, Adrian | ||
| Debbie Registered user Username: Debbie Post Number: 76 Registered: 7-2000 |
Susan_2 If Dr. Gene Scott is who I think he is, I've watched him before. So, let me ask you: What is his emphasis? (Is his teaching centered around Jesus?) And does he teach from the Bible? (Does he have a bible in his hand, and read and teach from it?) Just so you know, my husband and I are going out of town, so I won't be able to respond to you for a few days. Debbie | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 626 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yes, Dr. Gene Scott's emphasis is total Jesus, total Grace. He is a language specialist with his doctorates in the Bibical languages from Stanford University and he will take a Bibical passage and then give the most accurate translation possible to the language. I really like that. It is very much like being in school with the teacher with his chalkboard up front and gettig an ineresting lecture. He teaches Jesus only, grace only. Now on to the talking in tongues discussion: I like to go on Monday evenings to St. Pat's Church for their prayer and praise service. St. Pats is Catholic. These Catholics almost all tend to break out in tongues and it is not at all like I've observed from my few times attending a Penticostle or Assemblies of God Church. The talking in tongues doesn't freek me out at the Catholic church like it does at the other church. At the Catholic church it is like sweet music that is between only the one saying it and God and each person does it is a very reverant and personal and quiet way. And, it is very orderly. However, Biblically it is one of the gifts of the spirit. | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 605 Registered: 7-2000 |
I thought you put it very well Adrian. I suspect we hit a problem when we are talking to some who have not had much experience with Charismatic type churches. I was raised in a Southern Baptist home. The Southern Baptist, at least back at that time, were very much against the stuff they heard was happening in charismatic churches. The assumption always seemed to be that "charismatic" equated out of control and confusing church services, filled with people who were looking for a demon under every bush to cast out, not taking responsability for their own behavior....blame the devil instead, name it and claim it, etc. Basically I think they were viewed as being only one step removed from the snake handling type churches. Really, I think that is pretty much the view that the SDA denomination presents of them as well. If someone's only exposure to the "charismatic" has been to the out of control, the false, name it and claim it, anything is okay groups, then they really aren't going to be open to anything real that the Lord wants to do. There minds are automatically closed to any suggestion that the Spirits gifts are valid today. I think that is really sad. And I certainly agree with what you are saying about balance. The thing that strikes me about the charismatic is there is more of a tendency in the churches to recognize that we are intended to worship God, to experience God, with our whole being, not just in our minds. That inevitably means that there are times when our bodies get involved...swaying, clapping, dancing, even leaping as did King David. That our emotions will be involved as well....so tears and laughter aren't out of place. We were pretty darned surprised when the Lord led us to a more charismatic type church when we left the SDA! Looking back tho I can see that He had been instructing us and moving us slowly in that direction for several years. By the way, in general, the definition of "Pentecostal" does seem to be a bit different than "charismatic". The only thing I can come up with at the moment is that the services seem to be a bit less structured than those in charismatic churches. And also that there is a greater tendency in the Pentecostal groups to lean toward the idea that if one is not healed, then it is either a matter of lack of faith of the one praying or receiving prayer, or of some hidden sin. What has your experience been? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 319 Registered: 12-2003 |
Adrian's posts above reminded me of Philippians 1:15-18: "It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of good-will. The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. the former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice." I liked what Lydell said above, that the gifts of the Spirit and the personal touches from God may be given to us in ways that match out temperaments and that will be recognizable to us as His presence. The bottom line, for me, is that I can't attach myself to any teacher or preacher as the one through whom I will learn the truth. There truly is no person who knows all truth. Undoubtedly God puts people in our lives from whom we learn and who help us to grow, but ultimately I must be consistent in my own study of the Bible. The Bible is our only original source of truth, and the Holy Spirit is our teacher who will help us understand the truths God wants us to know as we study. I believe that each of us gains different insights as we study the Bible, but the essential truths are consistent, and true Christ-followers will agree on those core essentials. I also believe that God will help us to be discerning as we pray for His wisdom. It's really important, though, to be individually connected to Jesus and to be committed to our own Bible study. Paul reprimanded the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 1 and 3 for their partisan spirit: "My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, 'I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos'; another, 'I follow Cephas'; still another, 'I follow Christ.' Is Christ divided Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?" (1:11-13) Adrian is right, I believe; many teachers mix truth and heresy in their teaching. The only way we can really know what is true is by asking God to reveal truth to us, to teach us what He wants us to know, to protect us from deception, and and for us to be consistently in the Bible. I firmly believe that God grants his gifts to each believer in "packages" tailor-made for him, and those gifts may change as the needs of the Body change. God is not limited in the ways he can touch us. Our central calling is to desire Jesus, not the gifts per se, and to surrender to Him whatever He convicts us we need to surrender. The distribution of His gifts is his completely sovereign decision, and our appropriate response is to give thanks always and to pray continually with hearts submitted to him. Colleen | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 89 Registered: 2-2003 |
Thanks for your comments, Lydell and Colleen. [I suggest that if anyone is not interested in my reply to Lydell about the Charismatic movement, don't bother reading this post, because it got rather long, as has very little to do with SDAism.] My experience of what the churches are like is probably rather different from yours, as I come from England and now live in Hungary, so I only know the situations in these two places personally. For one thing, church attendance is far lower in Europe than in America, I have heard the figures of 40% for the USA (recently) and about 2% for Britain, though those may be not accurate, or they may be out of date by now. I wrote "Pentecostal/Charismatic," as both movements believe that the gifts of the Spirit are for today, though there are differences, both within the movements and between them. In Europe at any rate, there may be vast differences between individual churches in the same denomination. For instance, I was brought up in England in the Baptist church. The congregation we attended became rather liberal, as the nearby Bible college (in Manchester) produced liberal ministers. There are others that are Evangelical, and some are totally Charismatic (in the "we believe in spiritual gifts" sense). The same could be said of the Anglican or Methodist churches. Also Baptists in England are generally Arminian (apart from the group known as "Strict Baptists" who are Calvinist, but there are not many of them), though in Wales I believe they are generally Calvinist. Anyway, back to Pentecostal/Charismatic. (Pentecostals I have met personally are generally Arminian in England and Calvinist in Scotland and Northern Ireland too (maybe it has something to do with the background "spiritual heritage"). The difference between P. and Ch. is first of all historical (you may know this already, if so, sorry for boring you). I think these facts are right, but I am just doing this from memory, so I may make the odd slip. There was a revival in Los Angeles, Azusa Street, at the turn of the century (19th-20th), when a lot of people began to speak in tongues and use other spiritual gifts. This attracted attention and many people travelled there from all over the world, and took the teachings back home. This was the first time that the use of spiritual gifts really came back into the church in a big way - there is reference to them in the Early Church Fathers up to about the fourth century, as far as I remember, then they got quashed in the Middle Ages, along with a lot of other Biblical teachings. There had been sporadic occurrences before the 1900s, for instance, there are reports of Baptist and Methodist revivals in the 19th century, and even Adventists, who moved in the gifts. I have read that Ellen White rejected the Azusa Street revival as being of the devil, by the way, so that must have influenced Adventists' opinions rather strongly. Maybe she thought nothing could be of God if it was happening somewhere else and not in the remnant church, or maybe she felt her prophetic authority would be threatened if a lot of people received the gifts, who knows? Anyway, this revival reached Britain in the first decade of the 20th century, and Hungary in 1926. As this was a new teaching, as is always the case, some accepted it, some rejected it, there were extremes, conflicts, etc., so people left their churches and new denominations were formed - in Britain, Assemblies of God, Elim, and the Apostolic Church. The Oneness teaching dates from about 1913, I think. They branched off from the general Pentecostal movement, but ended up rejecting the Trinity, and becoming legalistic and cultic. They are still labelled "Pentecostal," and make up around 10% of Pentecostals I believe (that figure excludes Charismatics, who are in fact much more numerous), but Oneness teaching is considered by others in the movement to be heretical. My personal view is that the usage of spiritual gifts was a step in the restoration of the church to what it should be after the "Babylonian Captivity" of the Middle Ages (to quote Luther). The Reformation regained justification by faith, which was of course vital, but there were other things to be restored, and my view is that there still are. Not everyone agrees with that, of course :-) As new denominations, the Pentecostal churches then ended up being rather isolated from the general Christian community, as a lot of people labelled them as cults, so they lost their impact. They also settled down, lost their fire, and became legalistic in many instances. The next step was the Charismatic movement, which began in the 1950s, I think, when the acceptance of the use of spiritual gifts spread to more traditional denominations. In this case, the tendency at first was for people who had experienced Charismatic renewal to stay in their own churches, and not form separate groups, so if the whole congregation accepted it you got Charismatic Anglicans, Charismatic Baptists, and so on. Later on, other new churches did come into being though, with a great deal of variety in theology and practice, just having the belief in spiritual gifts in common. The situation in Hungary, is that there is one main Pentecostal denomination (Evangelical Pentecostal Fellowship) and one main Charismatic one (Faith Church), but with lots of independent groups as well. Both of these main groups are pretty much of a disaster. A typical traditional Pentecostal meeting, is that the women are in shapeless dresses and headscarves, with no make up or jewellery. Everyone looks miserable, and they all glare at each other disapprovingly. They sing a few songs from the 1920s, usually badly, accompanied by a harmonium, usually played badly as well. Individuals will "minister" by singing a solo or reading a poem, then there will be a rambling sermon, usually shouted in a loud voice to indicate "anointing," with no beginning, ending, or much of a middle either. They are very legalistic. Smoking is the most heinous crime you can imagine, but gossip and backbiting, and being a misery guts are apparently OK. Why is this Pentecostal, you may ask? So did I when I got here from England about ten years ago. Then the Faith Church started in the mid 1980s. They were pretty good at the beginning, and brought a very necessary injection of new life to the church in this country. They were criticised and rejected by everyone, including the Pentecostals, and ended up getting hurt and isolated. They took on a lot of the extremes of the Faith Movement, and totally over the top Toronto stuff, like rolling round the floor barking all through the meeting. This caused more criticism and more isolation. They have dropped a few of the extremes now, but they have a single, national leader who is very dictatorial, and they quote him more than the Bible. They think they are the best church going, and are very arrogant. So your typical Pentecostal is a legalistic grouch, and your typical Faith Church member is an arrogant, super-spiritual, and usually totally stressed-out wacko that you can't even have a normal conversation with. Then your average Baptist looks at this lot, and says, so much for the Charismatic movement. (Actually the Baptists are very legalistic as well, but they are a little more normal at least). So in answer to the question, what is my experience of Pentecostals and Charismatics, well that is it. You can imagine that trying to be a normal Christian in this set up is somewhat difficult. Actually, having said that, there are some fantastic individuals, and some groups that are striving to live by the Bible, but they are not particularly common. So if you ever think about it, please pray for Hungary folks! God bless, Adrian | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 607 Registered: 7-2000 |
Thanks for the reply Adrian. Pretty much knew the history, but you filled in some stuff too. Welll, I was trying to be tactful....we live in the southeastern United States. Around here, the Pentecostals are generally pretty much what you described, the women wear ugly long dresses, never cut their hair (actually wear it piled high up on their heads), the men are chauvinists, and the preachers shout and pound the pulpit. There's bound to be exceptions, those are just the ones I am familiar with. I have to think that more often now we are seeing great variety in all denominations and groups. I think I agree with your observation that the spiritual gifts is a restoration to the church. When you look at the history of revivals, at least all I have read about thus far, you see this outbreak of the manifestations of the Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit. What happens with them from that initial point, I believe, has depended on the openness of the people to learning. I hear something recently that sounded pretty solid to me. The author was defining "church" (Christian of course!!). You have "where two or three are gathered together", "all the churches in a city", "all the churches in a country" "all the churches in the world" AND "all the churches through the ages". He pointed out that taking one of those and seperating it from the rest, for instance "WE are the church and all the rest of the Christian churches are wrong" automatically eliminates that group from truly being Christian. No exclusivity in the kingdom. To me it seems logical then that if the Christian church all through time is "the church" and the gifts were active back then, then we should expect to see the gifts active today as well. We are not a seperate entity from the historical church. I think what I see in the USA is a growing balance. Many in the traditional churches are becoming more open the the idea of the gifts still being valid in the church. And many in the Pentecostal/charismatic traditions are realizing a need for less of a focus on the Spiritual gifts. I'm part of a Vineyard church. I've heard someone at some Vineyard meeting refer to this balancing out we are seeing across denominations as being something like a third wave movement of the Holy Spirit. I have another question for you, since you have a Baptist background also. I've thought alot about different things that happened as I was growing up Baptist, conversations I heard, mission stories I read, and even conversations I hear amongst my mom's Baptist friends today. You know, I just have to say that the Spiritual gifts ARE active there....I just don't think they have a vocabulary for them. (I'm been a member of more than one Baptist church and never saw alot of legalism....individuals yes, the body no). For instance, my mom's friends will ALL acknowledge times when they have suddenly, totally out of the blue, had a strong impression that it was imperative that they call a friend NOW....that they needed prayer. Many times they will tell you that they have also known exactly what the problem is that is needing prayer before they even pick up the phone. Yet if they hear a charismatic mention "gift of wisdom" or "gift of knowledge" or "the prophetic", they would immediately reject those things as being false. I loved mission stories when I was a kid. You certainly see gifts of wisdom, knowledge, healing, the prophetic, tongues, etc. in the great mission stories from the past. You know, I think as a kid it did occur to me sometimes to wonder why that stuff happened in Africa or China but not the US. Wondered if you have seen the same in the Baptist churches you have known there? Is it valid to say they seem to have no terminology for their experiences? Praying for you to be given THE key to reach your people. Had a sweet experience yesterday. Went to visit a neighbor who has terminal cancer. She had complained of having no appetite and unable to really enjoy any food. Prayed for her before I left, feeling led to pray that the Lord would, even while I was praying bring to mind some food that she would enjoy that he would give her a desire for that food. When I finished praying she looke up at me so excited and almost shouted "Egg Custard. I really want egg custard! Oh that would taste so good!" I thought it was a precious thing for the Lord to do for her. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 325 Registered: 12-2003 |
Adrian, thanks for the background. I didn't know most of it; very interesting. I will pray for your work in Hungary. Lydell, your story reminds me of a small incident that happened about three or four months ago. (There have been others, too, but this one stands out in my mind.) Richard was having a particularly difficult experience at work--let me just say that he really is in a spiritual battleground, and I am just praising God for how faithful He is to care for Richard and also to glorify Himself. On this particular day, I knew that there was significant turmoil going on, and I prayed periodically throughout the day that God would send people to pray for Richard. I have no idea of all the ways God may have or may be answering that prayer, but Richard told me later what happened that afternoon. He had to see an orthopedist for a bursitis flare-up on his elbow, and when he walked into the doctor's office (not an SDA doctor, BTW--but a Christ-follower), the doc asked Richard how he was. Richard briefly told him about the current circumstances, and that doctor said, "Let me pray for you." He took Richard's hand in his and prayed for him before he ever looked at the elbow. That's a small thing, really, but it made me want to cry. How often does a doctor take his patient's hand and pray for his current circumstances? Of course, what really made me emotional was that God also confirmed to me that He was caring for Richard and was, indeed, providing people to care for him by praying for him. The ministry of the Holy Spirit in the body of Christ is completely unexplainable to those who have not experienced it. I'm still amazed at its impact, power, and caring. Praise God! Colleen | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 117 Registered: 10-2001 |
Wow Adrian. They really need you over there! I live in TN and as far as I know there are few Pentecostals here that do the bun and no make-up and long dresses, very few and most of the Oneness are described as Apostolic. The Pentecostal church I went to wore jeans mostly and plenty of make up and teased hair, lots of tatoos and an ash tray-well, big can outside for smoke break between Sunday School and church. LOL! It was definately a place for any and everybody! I miss those simple people sometimes. They didn't know any better and were probably better off for it. They had a few things wrong but they really loved Jesus and led me to Him, no doubt. I just think we all have some things wrong but if we are humble and willing to be taught we can grow. | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 252 Registered: 7-2000 |
My big beef with the Pentecostals is over their emphasis on certain gifts---usually speaking in tongues and miracle healing. Both of these gifts are easily faked and that is what many of these groups routinely do. I remember going to one Pentecostal service when my (then) small SDA congregation was looking for a place to rent. The Pentecostals have a leg lengthening 'trick' that they do. They have someone come forward for healing and they are having spinal problems such that one leg is drawn up shorter than the other. They pray, lay hands on them and 'presto!' the leg gets longer. It's one of the oldest tricks in the book, but they expected us to fall for it. Ditto for speaking in tongues---it all sounds like someone trying to imitate the Hebrew language. I've also noted that most of these congregations place 'feeling' over 'doctrine'. Give them a choice and they go with what feels right---whic is very dangerous practice. My two cents worth is that I don't believe the gifts are static. They come from the Holy Spirit who is a person with a mind of His own. The gifts of the New Testament were suited for that time. We have need for some of those gifts, and a need for perhaps some different gifts today. Why couldn't God give different gifts today? There are at least two, somewhat contradictory, lists of gifts in the New Testament--right? I'm trying to remain open to some of this, but I sure haven't seen anything yet to change my mind..... Bill | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 362 Registered: 7-2003 |
It is only because I personally knew some pentecostals that I wanted to learn more about their church. The people I knew weren't big into the faith healing stuff, and I get a little skiddish when I hear of "healing" seminars. It's a little dangerous to lump all pentecostals into that bucket because many are just tongues advocates, though they believe God heals and invite people in to pray for healing during services, many don't fake it. I know personally a man who was healed by prayer...opened up and covered with cancer, given 2 weeks...a week later, cancer gone...lived more than 30 years. But same scenario has gone the other way too. Only God can heal and only he knows why he chooses to heal some and not others. My experiences are limited to the AOG group, and not the other "pentecostal" groups out there, so maybe that is a distinction? Healthy skeptcism is good, I think. |
