| Author | Message | ||
| Hoytster (Hoytster) |
Chris wrote: "Jesus discussed Hell more than he discussed Heaven." Nuh-uh. I'm no authority, but I know how to use a text search utility. Applying one to the NSRV New Testament: Jesus mentions "hell" in Matthew 5 (3 mentions), 10, 18, 23 (2); Mark 9 (3); and Luke 12 -- a total of 11 times. There is an additional mention in James and in Peter, but those are not Jesus speaking, I think. Jesus mentions "heaven" in: Matthew 4, 5 (10), 6 (4), 7 (3), 8, 10 (3), 11 (4), 12, 13 (8), 14, 16 (4), 18 (8), 19 (4), 20, 21, 22 (2), 23 (3), 24 (7), 25, 26, 28. I'll stop there: in Matthew alone, Jesus mentions heaven 69 times. My count or math may be off a little, but the larger point is made. Jesus talks about heaven A WHOLE LOT more than about hell. Altogether, there are 13 mentions of hell in the NT, and 248 mentions of heaven, a 19:1 ratio. Some of those heavens are by speakers other than Jesus, of course. Normally this is the kind of pedantic "being right" that I would never bother with. Or, perhaps I would look up the fact and then just keep it to myself. I'm offering it here because I think that an over-emphasis on hell is part of the SDA syndrome. I bring it to your attention so you *get* how positive Jesus's promise is. He discusses hell, in some uncomfortable ways, but his much greater focus is on heaven. - Hoytster | ||
| Hoytster (Hoytster) |
By the way, the NSRV NT has 72 mentions of "devil" or "Satan", and 182 mentions of "angel" or "angels". The good guys are in the majority! - Hoytster | ||
| Seekr777 (Seekr777) |
Hoyster - An inquiring mind wants to know. . . where all 182 mentions of angels the "good kind".  Richard PS: thanks to all for your comments so far, I'll try to post more later when I'm not at school. I'm due at a staff meeting in a few min. | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
Hoyster, Admittedly I am merely repeating an oft-used axiom within evangelical circles. You may or may not be correct in pronouncing this axiom wrong, but I would not recommend doing a simple word search to find all occurrences of a TOPIC. What you will get with a simple word search is a count of certain words, not necessarily a systematic study of a topic. I would submit that your word search missed Mat. 3:12, Mat. 7:23, Mat. 8:11-12, Mat. 11:23, Mat. 13:42, Mat. 16:18, Mat. 16:23, Mat 22:13, Mat. 24:42-51, Mat. 25:41, an additional reference in Mark 9, Luke 16:19-31, John 3:36, John 5:28, and John 5:29 just to name a few. Consider this quote by author Max Lucado: ìThe New Testament is the primary storehouse of thoughts on hell. And Jesus is the primary teacher. No one spoke of eternal punishment more often or more clearly than Christ himself. Think about these facts: Thirteen percent of the teachings of Christ are about judgment and hell. More than half of his parables relate to Godís eternal judgment of sinners. Of the twelve times that the word gehenna ñ the strongest biblical word for hell ñ appears in scripture, there is only one time in which Jesus was not the speaker. No one spoke of hell more than Christ did.î It is also worth considering the following quote by well-known theologian R.C. Sproul: ìAlmost all the biblical teaching about hell comes from the lips of JesusÖModern Christians have pushed the limits of minimizing hell in an effort to sidestep or soften Jesusí own teaching.î Finally, I would say that in my personal experience Adventist are not particularly obsessed with Hell because they donít believe in Hell per se. Your experience may differ. At any rate, we can hopefully at least agree that it was a significant and oft repeated topic in the ministry of Christ. God bless you! Chris | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Hoytster, I think the point Chris is making about hell is not that hell is more emphasized or important than heaven. Rather, it is that Jesus ACTUALLY TAUGHT hell. The problem with the Adventist perspective on hell is that they don't believe in it--not in a biblical sense. They believe that there will be a great conflagration after the second coming during which all sin and evil will be destroyed. Satan, the urepentant wicked, the demons--all will be annihilated in the fire which will cleanse the universe and then disappear. The point that has come as a bit of a surprise to many of us who have left is that it was Jesus himself who did most of the teaching about hell. The fact that Jesus himself taught it emphasizes that we have to take it seriously; we can't explain it away (like we used to explain away so much of Paul's teaching) by saying, "Oh, that teaching is culturally biased," or "Oh, my--we know that Paul is hard to understand; he didn't really mean that!" Actually, Adventists do not place much emphasis on hell at all. In fact, most Adventists do not really take the idea of being a sinner as seriously as most Christ-followers do because they always have the thought in the back of their minds (as I used to have): "Well, if I don't make it to heaven, at least I'll burn up fairly quickly, and then it'll be over." Adventists really do not take seriously the idea that God is completely just and that his wrath against sin is real and eternal. And that idea brings me full circle back to universalism: I believe that many liberal theologians, as Chris mentioned above, really do downplay the wrath of God and the eternal consequences of sin because they want a God who will approve of them but not One who will destroy those who are rebellious against him. BTW, Hoytster, I continue to pray for you and your son! Colleen | ||
| Hoytster (Hoytster) |
Well, now I'm uncomfortable, because hell has not been emphasized in my Christian education, and I have tended to set it aside. I'll have to revisit that. So that's good. As my Bible study advised, if I'm learning this stuff and I am NOT uncomfortable, then I'm doing it wrong. It's supposed to be transforming, which is never comfortable. I _get_ the point that Jesus is the one doing nearly all the talking about hell. That's sobering. By an amazing coincidence, I spoke to a friend last night, who was raised a Christian but is now officially disdainful. He tolerates my talking about my Christian baby-steps, but is not very interested. Part of his problem was a colleague he used to have, who was (1) earnestly proselitizing my friend while (2) hitting on all the women at the office (this "Christian" was married). Hypocrisy is not limited to so-called Christians, but it's particularly damaging to the Christian message. Anyway, my friend was cheerfully quoting to me from an article he'd read, in which the writer challenged the reader to find where Jesus talked about hell. The writer's thesis was that Jesus did not. The writer's goal was to inform the reader that they should return to church (I guess), because all that hellfire-and-damnation stuff from their childhood wasn't Biblical. My friend liked that message. He probably had that kind of religious upbringing, in rural Texas in the 50's. As a result of my having applied the text search, I was in a position to tell my friend that Jesus did talk about hell. However, I told him, Jesus also mentioned heaven about 19 times as much. So my friend continued with the message that Jesus's promise is much stronger than Jesus's threat. I persist in that belief. I looked up your references, Chris, and see that they all refer to something hellish. Did you use a concordance? I've yet to adopt that practice. My Bible study is out of a manual and the authors have made that kind of leg-work unnecessary. Thanks for your advice, Chris and Colleen, and for your prayers. I had my chat with the GAL (my son's legal advocate) on Monday, and it went OK. Officially he cannot hold an opinion about the appropriateness of this religious tenant or that one, but I think he gets that Mom's suddenly fervent efforts to indoctrinate my son are part of a larger program to alienate him, which very much IS the GAL's concern. So thanks to you all. I'm finding this discussion really valuable, and not just because it relates to SDA. - Hoytster | ||
| Leigh (Leigh) |
Have any of you heard the song "Growing" by Wayne Watson? Christian music has been such a blessing to me in lots of situations. Right now this song fits. Here are the words: Growing By Wayne Watson I'm growing, but I don't like it. I'm growing, and it hurts. I love you, but I'm tired Guess I've got a lot to learn Yeah, guess I've got a lot to learn. Don't leave me here You said You would not forsake me But You never said that you wouldn't break me To make me over in the image of You In the dark night of the soul When there's no comfort in prayin' Not a moment's pleasure in strayin' You're the only shelter I know. I'm growing, but I don't like it. I'm growing, and it hurts. I love you, but I'm tired Guess I've got a lot to learn Yeah, guess I've got a lot to learn. When feelings fail When 'close enough' isn't good enough When 'full enough' isn't full enough Your grace will be sufficient for me No wind to sail No rain to water the flowers In my most desperate hour Lord, You will be the strength that I need I'm growing, but I don't like it. I'm growing, and it hurts. I love you, but I'm tired Guess I've got a lot to learn Yeah, guess I've got a lot to learn. Still growing, still learning, and forever resting in Jesus. Leigh | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
I heard Billy Graham talking about hell the other night on TV and he says he believes it is an unquenchable thirst for God. That is very interesting, never heard of that before but may explain the rich man/Lazarus parable, maybe. | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
Hoyster, an exhaustive concordance can be helpful in these types of studies, but it has the same limitations as a word search. I like to supplement a word search with consulting 1) a topical reference such as "Thompson's Topics" or "Nave's Topics", 2) a theological dictionary such as "International Standard Bible Dictionary" or "the Expositiors Bible Dictionary" and 3) a systematic theology such as the one by Wayne Grudem. Some of these I have as hardcopies, but many of them are within the Bible software I use. It's amazing how much information you can find in a short time by cross referencing all these resources plus multiple bible commentaries. I highly recommend having a good Bible study program on the computer. I'm glad to hear that the GAL seems to be taking some of the information you are giving him into account. I pray that the Lord will give you great wisdom in this matter. I pray that He will give you the words to speak. I pray that God's presence will be with you in a powerful way and guide all the proceedings. I pray that there will be a great bond between you and your son, a bond formed and defined by a mutual passion for Jesus, a bond which can never be severed. In His name, Chris | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
By the way, I forgot to mention in my post above that I agree with you completely that Jesus' promises of eternal life are iron clad and those who have have accepted Christ need not fear hell. ``Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." John 5:24 (NASB) That's a promise we can take to the bank! For believers, there is not doubt that Hell has absolutely no sway over the promises of Christ. We as believers should not obsess or live in fear about Hell becasue we have already passed from death into life through the blood of Jesus. NOTHING can remove us from His hand! I give eternal life to them, and they will never, perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand." John 10:28 (NASB) In Christian love, Chris | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
B and I have been having current "discussions" about eternal security. He says that a believer can "know" they are saved as long as they equally understand that they can lose their salvation. How that is secure, I'm not sure, but he ties it to "obedience". Tony Evans is doing a good series right now on security which made a lot of my arguments, but B pulls the texts that talk about showing faith by works to say that without works, one is not saved. I keep asking him, then, if a person has salvation at a moment or if it is dependent upon a degree of "obedience" and how do you know when you've reached it, but he doesn't have an answer to that. Though he claims you can lose salvation gradually, he can't identify how you know when you've hit that point. I'd live in fear if I believed that way too. Lord knows I've made my share of blunders, even knowing better. But he is faithful and just to forgive even me, so I just don't understand the emphasis on one's ability to lose salvation. He contrasts it with people thinking they can live any old way they want...though I don't know anyone thinking that salvation is a license to live in sin. Just another on-going argument. I was curious, though. Is that all SDA teaching or is he adding his own? Also, from those of you who have left, how do you untangle it all? All the truth from the fiction? I look at all the theological confusions in his beliefs, and I can't imagine ever being able to sort through it all so that it is more Biblically aligned. I know all of us have some level of inaccurate understanding, but as Leigh quotes the Wayne Watson song, we are still 'getting there'. The difference I see with the SDAs I know is that they think they already know it all..."Mrs. White makes scripture clear". It just looks like a major mass of confusion to sort through. | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
The only thing that I see B is adding is that you can know you're saved in any sense. EGW said that we should never think or feel that we are saved. Chris | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Melissa, the only way we untangle it all is by being willing to surrender all (including all beliefs) and be led by the Spirit. You have to be willing to sell all and follow Christ. That doesn't go just for material things, it is ALL. No one could have ever convinced me that I was wrong, there is too much fear of being misled and deceived to listen to another person. B will never get it by you telling him truth. He has to decide if his faith is in Jesus Christ or the SDA religion. That's it, plain and simple. The Holy Spirit is the only One that can show us truth. God will tell him if he asks and really wants to know the truth. It looks like he would rather be right than know the truth. | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
BTW, Chris. Thanks for your encouraging prayer the other day. I remember a while after I posted feeling the cloud go away and thinking someone has been praying for me. Reality is still what it is, but I don't have the sense of defeat I did. It is so nice to connect with "strangers" who care. My maternity leave is over, so I haven't had as much time to post lately, but I am trying to check in once a day. Once I get a routine, I'm hoping for more interaction. Today has been more quiet. Thanks again. | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
Thank you for the update Melissa. It is so reaffirming to have the power of prayer confirmed. Sabra, excellent comment! That's really it, isn't it. You end up having to throw almost everything you ever thought you knew overboard and start from scratch. It can be quite scary. Thank the Lord that His Spirit is always there leading us, teaching us, and reaffirming the veracity of His Word. At least there are some things we can cling to no matter what. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I second that, Chris. Your comment, Sabra, was exactly right on. I had to be willing to jettison everything I believed or thought I was and begin reading the Bible while asking God to please teach me what it REALLY said. I can't explain the phenomenon, but the Holy Spirit really teaches us when we are finally ready to learn. He opens the Scriptures to us; he helps us make mental connections between things we read in one biblical book and others we have read before; he affirms himself to us in ways I can't explain in words. He also puts us face-to-face with subjects He knows it's time for us to study. I'm convinced that God's first call on our hearts is the call to repentance. Once we're willing to go belly-up before him (so to speak!) and admit that who and what we are is lethally flawed, we're then ready to change. It's not until we're ready to admit that our lives are not going well and we can't fix them that God can really teach us truth. As long as we're hanging onto our knowlege or beliefs or identity in spite of God's nudging to lay them down and embrace him, we're refusing to know the truth. Praise God for his eternal word and for his Spirit who leads us and teaches us! Colleen | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
Just received an e-mail from an SDA friend who forwarded it to many recommending this link: http://www.lifetalk.net/2ndcoming/ee.html Just thought it was interesting, as I did not have much time to look at it, but when I clicked on it and chose "to learn about the 2nd coming" the first thing I saw was talk about the Sabbath. First thing!!! Once again, where is the "Good News???" Love and prayers to all, Carol #2 | ||
| Madelia (Madelia) |
Yes, I also received that. We I saw "Voice of Prophecy" advertised at the top, I'd seen enough and deleted it | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 514 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dear Friends, Please keep my preciopus six year old granddaughter and her family in my prayers. It is Monday today. On Friday I was in the car with my son and his family and I casually asked the little girl to tell me what she's been learning in school. She attends a small SDA school in their community, only around 70 kids in the school which is grades K-8. Most of the student body is Hispanic, with Spanish being the language spoken in the homes, this includes my sons family. Many of the children in this school have parents who were converted to SDA from Catholic as in this community the SDA church people really super target Catholics. Back now to my granddaughter. She barely turned six and she is in Kindergarten and she is very smart and totally trusting, knowing fullwell that all the grown-ups in her life love her and never would tell her anything that isn't total truth. So in the car she said, "O.K., I'll tell you about Ellen White." Immediatelly I gasped and said something about being so happy that she will be spending the summer in Puerto Rico with normal people and hopefully the few months she is there she will be able to overcome the damage done in this school she attends. I then bit my tongue and told her to tell me about Ellen White and here is very close to a quote of what the child said, "When Ellen White was a little girl a bad, mean boy hit her in her head with a rock. She didn't wake up for a long time and after she woke up she was weak and sickly for the rest of her life. She was a very good lady and God felt sorry for her having to be so sick all the time so he gave her special dreams so she could help people to know right from wrong and understand Jesus better". Oh, gasp! I was appalled. This kid is only six years old. She finilly fell asleep and I confronted my son about this trash talk I was hearing from his child. He told me to get over it, that it was o.k. for her to be told that because he has read a lot of EGW and he has read a lot of other Christian authors and EGW comes the closest to explaining the Bible. Then he tried to pin me down as to what denomination I believe is the closest to being the most right. I didn't fall into his trap but I did tell the truth. I told him any denomination that lifts up Jesus and Him crusified and puts its emphasis on Jesus is the right Christian church. Again he tried to trap he. He said, "Do you think the Baptist church is the right church?" I told him churches are earthly organizations and that there are many Baptists that are members of Gods true church and if the Baptist church teaches the truth of grace through Jesus then "yes, I do". He then asked about Lutheran. He then went through numerous denominations and always got the same answer from me. He then said SDA. I told him that I believe there are many truly committed Christians who are SDA but they are Christian in spite of being SDA, not because of the SDA church teaching pure Christianity. Well, the conversation deteriorated and I fell asleep. Oh, gasp! Help! Pray! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 195 Registered: 12-2003 |
Susan, I'm praying for you and your family. Colleen |
