| Author | Message | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 361 Registered: 7-2003 |
Last Sunday our pastor did a children's story with the kids (including mine) in which he drove a toy train around the track. He then explained how the toy train wanted to be free, to get off the track, but as soon as the train went of the track he was stuck. The lessen was that the Decalogue is our track. The 10 are God's rules for our life and if we stray from them we will experience problems. Then he announced that we will spend the next 10 weeks in a sermon series on each of the 10 commandments....... ARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! I have a good relationship with this pastor and sent him an excellent article that a friend had providentially sent me that week. This article is from the view point of a Jewish believer to Jewish believers. It is unlikely that anyone but a Jewish believer or a former SDA could present the issues with clinging to the 10 in so clear a manner. My pastor said he was "disappointed" with the author's approach and felt that the author was "throwing the baby out with the bathwater". He quoted from 2 Timothy, "All scripture is....profitable...for instruction in righteousness" (my abbreviated version). I've asked him to read Sabbath in Christ if for no other reason than to better understand those of us in his congregation (two families) who are former SDAs. We'll see. I'd appreciate it if you'd read through this article and let me know your thoughts. I thought it was excellent, but perhaps others will have the same reaction as my pastor. Looking forward to hearing from you. The link is below: http://www.ariel.org/ff00006c.html Chris | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 591 Registered: 7-2000 |
Chris...I feel the same way you do. I think the article is excellent! It is sad your pastor said he was "disappointed" with the authors' approach (and also even mentioned that all-too-familiar SDA phrase, "throwing the baby out with the bathwater"!). It seems he just doesn't understand the radical NEW Covenant... the place of REST that finds its' fullfillment and even its' guiding and motivating force in Jesus Christ. How long have you been going to this church? Is it any particular denomination? I would be depressed with the whole thing! After leaving the legalism of Adventism I am wary of any teaching that attempts to place one back 'under the Law'... even if done by apparently good-intentioned ministers and churches. Perhaps, Chris, you can be of help to open this pastors' eyes to the way of being Spirit-led instead of 10 Commandment-guided to stay on the "train track"...the New Covenants' promise that God will write His laws on our HEARTS and minds! grace always cindy | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 362 Registered: 7-2003 |
My wife and I helped plant this church close to 2 years ago. It's affiliated with Disciples of Christ, but our pastor considers himself to be an evangelical so we're not exposed to the extreme liberalism found in some DOCs. I don't want to give the wrong impression about our Pastor, he doesn't have a legalistic or judgmental bone in his body (almost to being a fault). I have no fear that he will present the 10 Cs in any kind of perscriptive or legalistic way. His sermon title for the 4th C is something like "Knowing When to Take a Break". He will no doubt only use the 10 Cs as a springboard for discussing broader life principles. In that regard I expect his sermon series to be more or less harmless. Having said all that it still bothers me greatly because of my background and because I know that telling people the 10 Cs are God's standards for Christian living opens them up to deception by legalistic cults. Let's face it though, my pastor is not alone. He has an awful lot of well known names who would agree with him on this point. Three that pop into my mind are Hank Hannegraff (The Bible Answer Man), preiminent theologian R.C. Sproul, James Dobson of Focus on the Family, and Pat Robertson author of "The Ten Offenses". Those of us who think the 10 Cs are the Old Covenant and have been fulfilled by Christ are actually a pretty small minority. I think we need to continue to work within our churches to help those from other backgrounds better understand the superiority of the New Covenant and the Law of Christ. Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 364 Registered: 7-2003 |
Heh, heh, I can't count...... That would be: "Four that pop into my mind......" | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 593 Registered: 7-2000 |
Yes, we are in the minority in how we view being led by the Spirit... I know many Adventist pastors who also would teach the 10 Commandments in that non-legalistic, non-judgemental way! And, of course, such teaching may result in better "morals" and "family values", but at what cost? Does teaching the Ten Commandments as our standard for Christian living bring a true quickening of heart? Like you said, such teaching may open people up to the deceptions of legalistic cults. The 10 Commandments should only be disussed by way of comparison to the "surpassing glory" of Jesus' fulfillment. No promotion of the Ten Commandments as our "guide" in living... As Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 3, a "veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed; because only in Christ is it taken away. He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.... To this same day a veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed; because only in Christ is it taken away." grace always, cindy | ||
| Busymom Registered user Username: Busymom Post Number: 14 Registered: 4-2004 |
Hi Chris, I can understand your concern re: the upcoming sermon series. I read the article and didn't think it "threw the baby out with bathwater". Has your pastor preached on the Holy Spirit? As an Adventist I did not understand the importance of the Holy Spirit. (Intellectually I thought I did, but I did not have the fruits of the Spirit in my life or a personal relationship with Jesus) Romans 8:6-8 "The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace, because the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God." It is also interesting to me that Rahab is listed in Hebrews 11 for her faith, but when you read her story in Joshua she clearly lied about where the spies were. To me this illustrates the importance of being led by the Spirit and not focusing only on the laws. I am so thankful we have the Holy Spirit to live in our hearts and change us. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 365 Registered: 7-2003 |
Yes, he just finished a 5 week sermon series on the Holy Spirit. (I actually preached week 5). Chris | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 5 Registered: 7-2004 |
Busymom, Thanks for your insight. I went right to my Bible to mark your texts. Excellent point on Rahab and being Spirit lead. Isn't living with the Holy Spirit such a refreshing way to live? As a busy mom myself, this is THE MOST important concept I want to instill in my children. I read John 16:12-15 just this morning to my children (it was Saturday morning and we were heading off to a swim meet and I was once again giving my children Biblical reference to stand up against their cousin's critizism for "breaking the Sabbath day"!) and then we discussed in length how we can live our lives with joy and happiness because we know God's promise of His gift of the Holy Spirit will lead us and we don't have to do it on our own. I have a little question just a little off the subject...when I was read in Joshua about Rahab something caught my eye that I had never thought of before...6:15 "On the seventh day, they got up at daybreak and marched around the city..." The seventh day? God instructed the Israelites to break the Sabbath? I had not realized that before. Even back in the Israelites days, God's purpose for Sabbath was to bring His people to closer to Himself! Thanks, again, Busymom! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 379 Registered: 12-2003 |
Chris, the article is excellent, no baby is thrown out with the bathwater! I've notice that people (particualrly, it seems, pastors to whom we've talked) get really nervous about stating the 10 Commandments have no more authority. It seems that to them, the 10 are often the bottom line, the standard of behavior they can use to hold their congregations accountable. That's not to say they necessarily refer to the 10 a lot, but they seem unsure what to hold onto if the 10 go. Cindy is right: the 10 have been replaced--supplanted--by the surpassing glory of Christ! The Holy Spirit is far more eeffective and demanding than the 10! Chirs, I understand the sensitivity of your situation. You really do have the understanding your pastor needs, however; I'll pray that you have wisdom and opportunities to continue discussion with him, and also that God will prepare his mind to understand. Colleen | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 266 Registered: 7-2000 |
I had a very interesting time a few weeks back on a forum at Crosswalk, which is entirely Christian. The argument was over whether the Ten Commandments have been done away with. There were quite a number of Christians who said that they weren't. Then, a couple of SDA's (conservative types) got into the fray, telling everybody that they still had to obey the Sabbath IF the commandments weren't done away with. The end point was that I think a number of Christians had their eyes opened to the problem of hanging on too the idea of the 'Big 10'. The die hards that refused to let go were primarily from a Reformed theology background. I'll bet the pastor at Chris' church wouldn't want to argue the commandments with a diehard SDA! One of the best churches to learn the difference between the two covenants is the Church of Christ. I learned a lot from them that I will be forever grateful for, and I'm working on teaching a bunch of newer Christians at a Baptist church these differences. We, as formers, do have a message to share with other Christians! |
