| Author | Message | ||
| Jlondon81 Registered user Username: Jlondon81 Post Number: 7 Registered: 6-2004 |
Last night my wife and I were entertaining our neighbors, and as has been the case recently, my neighborís wife, Katheryn has been asking many questions concerning spirituality and such. She considers herself a new and inquisitive Christian, and I have encouraged her to ask questions when she doesnít understand. (Asking questions is a good way to find things out!) In any case, her husband is born and bred Pentecostal, of which I am quite familiar, having been born and bred that myself. Iíve told her of my times in the Assemblies of God denomination (which is Pentecostal) and the process I have endured unlearning all I was indoctrinated with. She has issue with a lot of their doctrines, such as tongues, spiritual gifts, the Holy Spirit, etc., much of the same questions I had when I came out. The discussion last night kicked off with some questions she had on the Left Behind series, which I believe can be closely tied to Pentecostal interpretations of eschatology. Iím familiar at least with much of the teachings, although if you asked me to explain Iíd be a little rusty. I remember reading the Left Behind series up through the eighth book, about the time my wife (girlfriend at that time) piqued my interest in SDA. Of course, SDA has itís own set of eschatological ideas, as do just about every denomination within Protestantism. I never picked up the Left Behind books since, and since studying Adventism and discovering grace, my ideas toward eschatology have changed. As a Pentecostal, I remember it being ìgoodî to witness using their doctrines concerning the Rapture and the Tribulation. Basically the idea was ìRepent, or youíll be left behind.î Naturally, I was excited to read the book series. Adventism, I have noticed, uses the same ìwitnessingî tactics, focusing first on eschatology, then reaching out with the Gospel. Now, I donít claim to be an expert on eschatology, the book of Revelation, or any of that. Personally, I think any focus on ìend-time eventsî clearly misses the point of the Gospel. Forgive me, but the last I checked, the Gospel is the good news of Jesus Christ. So how then is it good news to hear that millions of Christians are leaving the earth only to leave millions behind to endure tribulation? Iím not saying thatís false, to be honest I donít know anymore. My point is simply, you arenít going to reach many non-Christians with that message. You canít ìscareî people into becoming Christians. I remember telling Sara that when she was still SDA and her telling me that itís important that people know whatís going to happen in the end. Please donít mistake me for downplaying the blessed hope of the church, the Second Coming of Christ. We should look forward to that, and in a sense that makes us all ìadventistsî, certainly not in the same context as ìAdventist.î There is so much literature on eschatology from so many groups, itís ridiculous! From what little Iíve at least followed up on, we donít know anything for sure about the exact course of events leading to Christís Second Coming. Frankly to focus on that I think is way off base. You certainly donít see Jesus or the apostles admonishing us to take up eschatology and devour it. Our focus is Christ and getting to know Him better. Traditional eschatology today I think misses the entire point of the book of Revelation ñ that Godís children will spend eternity in His presence worshipping Him. We win! Now, after saying all that, I do believe eschatology can be studied taken in its proper context. Too much eschatological teaching takes prooftexting, particularly from the OT, and we all know that OT prophecy pointed to Christís first coming. What is written in the NT concerning Christís Second Coming to me leaves a lot of questions that I donít think weíll ever have answers to, so itís pointless to try to answer them ourselves. What are your thoughts, feelings, opinions on this topic? How would you explain eschatology to someone unsure about his Pentecostal roots (me)? | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 653 Registered: 11-2002 |
Someone is driving around in my community with a bumper sticker that says, "Read the Bible. It'll scare th hell outta you". I don't go with that eaching either. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 360 Registered: 12-2003 |
Joel, I totally understand your reluctance and questions. I don't have any absolute answers anymore either--except that Jesus is coming back, every eye will see him, we will be caught up to meet Him along with the righteous dead who will be resurrected, we will reign with him 1,000 years, there will be a second resurrection of the wicked for judgment, and there will be a destruction of the heavens and the earth and a new earth where we'll be with Jesus forever. How, when, what order the events leading up to the milennium will be, whether the church will be raptured pre, mid, post tribulationóor whether amillennialism is correct--I don't know for sure. (I personally lean away from amillennialism, but I don't feel comfortable being dogmatic about that issue, either.) The Bible is not clear about these things, and as Dale Ratzlaff says, "Where the scripture is clear, we can and should be certain. Where the Bible is unclear, we must be tentatiave. To be dogmatic in the interpretation of Scriptures that are unclear or are honestly open to more than one interpretation is the foundation of the disunity within the Christian church and the recipe for cultic teaching." I am, quite frankly, really happy to be open-ended about these questions after so many years of believing I knew exactly how it would be--without solid Scriptural support to back up my beliefs! Jesus told us just enough so we should not be caught off-guard. Just like His first coming was shrouded in both certainty and mystery, so is His second coming. And because of His first coming, we can be really confident that the second coming is absolutely certain! Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 655 Registered: 11-2002 |
I am possibly the most Bibically unitellegical person on this forum. Frequently the SDA's in my life will try to confront me on those topics you mentioned above. They get very frustrated with me when I tell then I don't know the answers to all that sort of things. Then they really get super frustrated with me when I tell them I am not even all that courious to try to figure it out. It just doesn't interest me. I tell them as I am telling you that I believe in a just and a fair God and however things come about if fine with me. God doesn't have to answer to me. I have to answer to Him. It seems that the SDA's get all worked up about this because they believe that Jesus has to vindicate Himself before satan. I forgot the text but it says we are to learn the truth from hearing the Word of God. After I read that text I wasn't so bent on thinking I had to read it as much but I kind of decided I'll just go to church more and hear it. Then if somethng sounds goofy I'll go home and check it out for myself. Fortunatelly Lutherans are pretty basic as far as their understanding of Scripture goes so I very seldom hear anything I want to read further about. Today though I did read the entire Ausburg Confession. What does the word "amillennialism" mean? Here's the way I see it-A carpenter does carpentery, a news commitator does news commatary, a taylor does sewing and the minister where I attend church presents the Will of God to me. If it sounds goofy I check it out. If it pretty much sticks with the Bible I'm cool wih it. Fortunatelly the Lutheran church has very basic teachings and as far as I have been able to conclude they do not add to or delete from the Word of God. For me the Lutheran religion is the KISS religion- you know, Keep It Simple Stupid. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 106 Registered: 4-2000 |
It may be surprising to many Bible students that the "secret rapture" theory started by a little 15-year-old Scottish girl named Margaret MacDonald. She had a vision in 1830, and a traveling evangelist named J. N. Darby took it as his own and marketed it successfully to the 19th century American church--to our detriment ever since, in my opinion. An American preacher, Cyrus Scofield, edited a Bible that amplified Darby's views, and millions of Evangelicals use it now. I guess they figure the church has had it all wrong during its first 18 centuries! As former Adventists, of all people, we need to be hesitant in embracing the views of 19th century visionaries. Personally, I subscribe to historic premillennialism--even though most people in my church subscribe to dispensational premillennialism (this view includes the secret rapture of the church). Of the four basic millennial views that Christians hold to, the dispensational premillennial view is the most detailed and complex. When belief systems become very detailed and complex, it should raise a red flag in our thinking. My wife calls the rapture theory too "busy" (an art designation). Rapture theology is only a recent novelty when it comes to church history. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Hallanvaara Registered user Username: Hallanvaara Post Number: 42 Registered: 1-2004 |
After Jesus said to me: "Get up and follow me." the more and more I¥ve lost my interest to that issue. Being SDA it seemed to be the most important thing and preparing tribulation and persecuting time were main things. Being now so close to Jesus, feeling I¥m in Him and He is in me, makes my life so "mellow". I know what ever happens to me it would not happen without His permission. He leads me through this world and that¥s why my mind don¥t be busy with events of the times. I¥ve found real Gospel and that¥s sufficient for me. I know that we have to observe the signs ¥cause they are telling about Christ¥s Second Coming. But I no more strain my brains how the events will go. We never know before we see it. My "eschatology" is simple: Only God knows everything so I really not need to know. I¥m just following Jesus and trusting His promises. I agree what Colleen quoted Ratzlaff. And if we get our mind too busy trying to understand and inventing explainings to Bible we lose Jesus from our sight and just get vain agony. Praise the Lord from His Son! Tuija | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 656 Registered: 11-2002 |
Tuija, You said what I tried to say. You seem to have worded it bettr. Thanks. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 198 Registered: 3-2004 |
I remember, as an SDA, trying to remember all the stuff I was taught was going to happen before Jesus comes. I seem to remember that EGW said we should study all this for ourselves and know it. I got scared and frightened when I did as I knew I did not measure up to God's standard. So, I am content now to accept Jesus as my personal savior. I go along with what Dale Ratzlaff said and Colleen quoted. Another person on the forum said something to the effect "it is not what you know, but who you know" and I am determined to knowing Jesus better every day. I have said before, I did not know how cultic the SDA church is and the farther I get from it, the more I read and study the Bible, the more I see how wrong the SDA church is. Thanks everyone for working with God in opening my eyes, ears, and mind. God is awesome. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 362 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dennis, thank you for that clarifying information. A couple of years ago I heard for the first time that the rapture of the church before the tribulation was a very recent view that the historic church did not hold. That pretty much planted the red flag in my mind that had already begun to be raised there. I agree with you that we, of all people, should be really wary of of early 19th-century visionaries' "new light". Could you explain more clearly the difference between historical premillenialism and dispensational premillenialism? I have to say, your wife has a great adjective to describe what I know of dispensational premillenialism--"busy". Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 363 Registered: 12-2003 |
In answer to your question, Susan, amillenialism, as I understand it, is the belief that there is no "future" millenium (the prefix "a" means "without"), but the millenial period began after Jesus' resurrection. Satan was "bound" at the cross, and we, the church, are reigning with Him right now. Then, when Jesus comes again, there will be the great white throne judgment, and heaven and earth will be destoryed, and a new earth will be established. In many ways, this scenario sounds convincing, except in Revelation 20 it clearly says that the first resurrection will have happened, and those who come to life will reign with Him. The rest of the dead will come to life at the end of the thousand years. I simply do not see evidence of the first resurrection having happened yet. I suspect that the millennium will have something to do with fulfilling parts of the prophecies in Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, etc. But again, I really can't be dogmatic about any of the details in advance. Colleen | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 375 Registered: 7-2003 |
At the risk of being repetitive and sounding argumentative.... the term "secret" rapture just rubs me wrong. I don't really know how you (universal use) define it, but it seems to me the real issue is not whether Jesus will come but when. I've heard the rapture theory was codified in the 1700s by Jesuit priests (according to B's SDA pastor and I believe the book "revelation for dummies" says the same thing) and then read by others it began back in the 400s and has ebbed and flowed in popularity through the years, but it is really irrelevant in some respect. Matthew 25:13, 24:36, 24:42, 24:44 say people won' t know the day or the hour; Acts 1:7 says people won't know the times or the seasons, and 1 Thess 5:2, 2 Peter 3:10, Rev 16:15 and Matt 24:43 say his coming will be like a thief in a night. Jesus said no one will know when he is coming, so if that makes it "secret"...point to Jesus...not to people who believe he will come back at a different sequence in time than some others do. By calling it "secret" as I've heard it spoken and the quote marks seem to make it written, it sounds sarcastic, therefore derogatory, when most people who use the term rapture use it to refer to Christ's catching away of the church. We as the body of Christ need to stop arguing about things that do not change how we live today. Is someone really going to live for Christ differently if they believe in a pre-trib rapture verses a post-trib rapture? If it weren't for the confusion over the nature of man, etc., I'd ask the same question about death of "sleep" verses absent with the body, present with the Lord. There are things we learn from scripture that transform our lives and change our hearts to be Godly men and women. Figuring out the exact moment and sequence of end time things just doesn't seem to be one of them. I say this with as much love as I can write. I think WAY too many people leave their studying to the conclusions of "others"...however educated and sincere they may be. I am certainly guilty in my own life. But given x-hours in a day and so many things to do, figuring out escatology hasn't yet peaked on my top 20 list. :-). This is not a salvation issue. And it seems wrong to use derogatory or some sort of sarastic or insulting language to characterize a concept that seems highly likely based in scripture (Christs return being unknown). If there is error, ridicule will do nothing but bring up defenses, not open their thinking to another view that contradicts their own. I have been raised with the idea of a "rapture". If you believe God is going to catch away his own, you (universally) believe in a rapture too. It seems to me his coming WILL BE unknown. I have read some things from others who come from other camps and though I don't know the motivation and intentions of anyone using the term "secret" rapture, I know how it feels to believe in a catching away, aka rapture, and have someone throw that term at you. B used to do it. I was dumbfounded and confused the first time he said it and the more I researched the term became more and more aggitated with the term. I've said this before elsewhere on this topic so I'll climb down off my soapbox now, but I HOPE there is no animosity towards those who are really trying to comprehend the scriptures mentioned above and arrive at the idea no one will know when Christ is returning. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 107 Registered: 4-2000 |
ADDITIONAL CLARITY ON MILLENNIAL VIEWS Christians agree on the second coming itself, but they disagree on the rest of these millennial claims. Interestingly, most Christians (i.e., Catholics, Lutherans, Eastern Orthodox, Reformed or Presbyterians, Episcopalians, etc.) are amillennial or non-millennial despite the recent publishing success of Tim LaHaye. To his credit, Tim LaHaye does not dogmatically proclaim his views. He even concedes that he may be wrong. My wife and I have carefully read many of LaHaye's books in recent years. I consider him to be a godly man; many have come to personally know Jesus as a result of his ministry. Amillennialists simply hold the view that the closing time line figuratively includes the millennium (Rev. 20). They combine the church age with the millennium. Furthermore, they include the rapture as a part of the general resurrection of the dead as the Bible clearly states. Amillennialists claim their view is the founding view of Christianity. Dispensational premillennialism depicts the church age followed by the secret and visible return of Christ. They believe that true believers will be physically taken up to heaven in a "rapture" that would leave their non-Christian friends behind for a second chance at genuine faith. A seven-year period of tribulation would follow, during which terrible things would afflict the new believers and unbelievers alike, many of them caused by an Antichrist figure at the summit of a one-world government with a single currency, who would lord it over subjects branded with "the mark." Next, a final, horrendous battle at Armageddon would follow, and only then would Jesus return in His second coming, bring on the millennium--ending with the final judgment. Additionally, the whole scenario would also be peopled with mysterious witnesses, beasts, demons and apocalyptic figures mentioned in such books as Ezekial, Daniel and Revelation. Historic premillennialism depicts the church age followed by the millennium, Satan's little season, resurrection of the unjust/great white throne judgment, new heavens and a new earth. In this view, the millennium is on earth. There is not even one Bible verse to support a millennium in heaven. Postmillennialism depicts the church age followed by the millennium, Satan's little season, second advent (universal resurrection/rapture and judgment, new heavens and a new earth. In light of these alternate views about the end-times, I remain firmly convinced that all four views have sometime inaccurate in them. Thankfully, this is not a salvational issue. However, if one is fervently expecting a certain, precise timeline, he could easily be greatly disappointed when the final events don't follow in a precise sequence. As a result, some may even abandon their quest for Christ. Consequently, when we read into Scripture our own views (eisegesis), then it may indeed become a salvific matter. Like in the fortified ancient cities, the defenders had only a limited view of the enemy through a small slot in the wall. Similarly, we also have only a limited view of the end-times from Scripture. May we all be wise enough not to impose our views on Scripture. Wisely, my church does not have an official stance on eschatology. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 108 Registered: 4-2000 |
CORRECTION: In the historic premillennial view, I inadvertently failed to include the the second advent at the end of the church age (before the millennium). Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 660 Registered: 11-2002 |
I have regurally attended the Lutheran (ELCA) church now for around 5 years. I have never even heard one sermon or even a discussion on this topic. I think this is one of the main reasons how come I like the Lutheran church so much. The emphasis is on being united with Jesus and just a content in the heart and that whatever will happen will happen according to Gods plan and His people will be provided for. In the creeds we do acknowledge life everlasting and the forth coming reign of our Lord and Savior. I think most the Lutherans I know follow the understand that "the last days" began at Christs cruisfixon. Paul speeks in is writings about now (meaning then when he wrote it) being the last days. To me this makes the most sense. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 373 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thank you, Dennis. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 109 Registered: 4-2000 |
Susan, My family background is entirely Lutheran. My great grandfather was a Lutheran minister in the Ukraine. Most SDAs in North Dakota, where I grew up, have a Lutheran background. They used to say that Lutherans make good Adventists. For example, the website of the Bismarck, North Dakota SDA church, has a long misleading article on Martin Luther's views. Adventists like to mention that Luther believed in soul sleep. The fact is that Luther only briefly toyed with that idea in his search for a possible solution to the purgatory heresy. As is clearly evident in his later writings, Martin Luther abandoned the soul sleep idea completely (a fact that Adventists fail to tell their Lutheran friends). Furthermore, Luther strongly opposed the observance of the Jewish Sabbath. Also, I still have my grandfather's German Bible that Martin Luther translated in the old German script. Interestingly, in Luther's German Bible translation, the first five books of the Bible (Pentateuch or Torah) are simply labeled as First Book of Moses, Second Book of Moses, etc. At least, with such titles, the German reader is fully aware of the authorship. I grew up attending a German SDA country church in western North Dakota. I still speak and read German almost fluently. My late mother is mentioned in the SDA book titled "UNBLESSED" (by Berneice Lunday) as a role model in Sabbath-keeping to the main heroine in the story, an escaped Catholic nun. My spiritual roots are Lutheran. The problem is that many of my Lutheran relatives converted to Adventism shortly after arriving in America as immigrants. This created alot of bad feelings in the family. Basically, my SDA relatives only knew about four denominational teachings; namely, sabbathing, tithing, pork-free diet, and EGW. Sadly, they built their entire spiritual lives around these four tenets. The Golden Valley SDA country church, that I grew up with and was a member of, has been disbanded many years ago (only the cemetery and two outhouses remain). By the way, I saved the best news until last. Sylvia and I recently became the proud grandparents of a little girl named Ava Lauray. Grandparenting is a great vocation. We are now blessed with three grandchildren--one boy and two girls. Being this grandchild lives in our city, we get to spoil her bigtime. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 667 Registered: 11-2002 |
That's just too wonderful about the new little grandbaby! My kin stem from South Dakota. My grandmother was the only one in her family to become SDA. She got sucked into SDA at age 17 from some traveling SDA tent meetings over in South Dakota in the late 1800's. They speek a dialect of German called Plautdoitch (?), I'm not sure about the spelling. The language is nearly extinct. It is much closer to Dutch than it is German. My dad liked his German Bible so much. So one time I told him one of the local Lutheran churches has a little museum in it with some German Bibles under a locked glass display case that go all the way back to Martin Luther. I honestly thought he'd like to go see them. But, he told me off. Told me he wouldn't even consider going into a heathen church. That ment a non-Sabbath-keeping church. He did go with me occassionally to a local Seventh-day Baptist church but he never liked them either because they didn't have enough rules. My dad would say to me, "Can a SDB (Seventh-dat Baptist) dance and still be a SDB"? I'd answer,"yes". He'd say, "Can a SDB eat pork?" I'd say "Yes". He'd go on and on with different things. Then he'd finilly get disguested and say why would anyone even want a religion that they could do anything they wanted to. It would break my heart. One time well after he turned 90 I tried to explain the concept of Jesus to him. He told he to stop telling him all that Jesus stuff, he was tired of hearing it. I'd only mentioned Jesus to him several times in my entire life. It was very upsetting to me. My dad was a good and wonderful and decent man. I know our Father in heaven is a good and just God. Being raised SDA my dad did not learn ever to have an abiding faith in Jesus. Excuse me for rambeling. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 212 Registered: 3-2004 |
CONGRATULATIONS DENNIS AND SYLVIA ON THE NEW GRANDCHILD. You are very fortunate to have the baby near you. My grandson is in Texas and I am in Nevada. But thank God for e-mail attachments and digital cameras. Have fun and spoil that baby. I saw a t-shirt with the 3 things for grandparents to do with the grandchildren: 1. Feed them sugar 2. Spoil them 3. Give them back to the parents. I am not sure about 2 but the things on the shirt were cute and something like that. Diana | ||
| Madelia Registered user Username: Madelia Post Number: 55 Registered: 2-2003 |
Dennis, I found your statement about Martin Luther opposing observance of the Jewish Sabbath quite interesting. Could you give me a reference for that? My SDA husband claims that Luther really thought the Sabbath should be observed, but never went through with promoting that concept. BTW, I just want to tell everyone here some exciting news: I have recently started playing piano for a small Lutheran church near my home. I saw an advertisment in our local newspaper. I have played for other churches, including the SDA church, so have some experience. I called, auditioned and they offered me the job! I feel so blessed to do something I enjoy doing, and get paid for it, and get to attend a non-SDA church. Susan2, I remember awhile back reading a post where you talked about how noisy the SDA church service is compared to the Lutheran church. I've noticed the difference too. Even though the children are sitting with their parents, they seem so much more respectful of being in a worship service. The funny thing is that my husband hasn't objected to my playing piano in a non-SDA church. I guess because ,sees it as a job because I'm getting paid. But I'm praising God for this opportunity! | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 671 Registered: 11-2002 |
The organist minister at the Lutheran church I attend had to resign due to health problems. So now the SDA organist plays the organ at the Lutheran church quite often. I generally go up to him after the service and thank him for the wonderful music he makes. He sees me with my mom at th SDA services. I do not know the man well enough to ask him if he's noticed the differences between the services and the preople but I have been courious about if he has noticed. It sort of struck my funny bone when on Penticost Sunday we did our annual routine of releasingthe Holy Spirit. Everyone in the congreation gets a balloon and blows it up and releases the balloon to illistrate that we have no control over the Holy Spirit and He will go wherever and to whomever He chooses. The organist was given a balloon to partisipate and he honestly looked extremely uncomfortable. I noticed he barely blowed up his balloon so it couldn't go far from him. All these Lutherans were surrounding him afterward to thank him for the lovely music and making comments about the wonders of the Holy Spirit. So different than an SDA service. Does the SDA church even acknowledge Penticost? I think I've heard the SDA's do have a belief in the Holy Spirit but I don't know what it is. Can anyone on here explain it to me? |
