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Doug_s
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Username: Doug_s

Post Number: 1
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 9:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Everyone,

My name is Doug and Iím new to the forum. Iíve been reading for some time now, and decided to join the fun. Some day Iíll tell you my story of exodus from the SDA church, itís similar to most of you. But thereís something thatís a burden to my mind and I wanted to get some feed back from the forum. Itís something that my pastor has mentioned in his sermons from time to time. Itís increasing in frequency and itís causing me to take notice and is a bit alarming. Most likely, I wouldnít feel this way if I hadnít just left the SDA church, a year and a half ago. Many things are still fresh.

Up front let me say that I feel that God led me and my family to the Baptist church we currently attend, and of which we are members. The church is large, 15,000 on the books, and 7,000 regular Sunday worshipers. We have 3 Sunday morning services and one Sunday evening. In September, we will be moving in to our new facility which is more like an arena. The church growth can be attributed to the emphasis on care group Sunday school rather than worship service. The pastor has been there for close to twenty years, growing it from around 100-150 members, and has stated on more than one occasion that if one had to choose between attending worship service and Sunday school he would advise choosing Sunday school. Thatís where relationships are established and Christian growth occurs. How we got there is a story for another time.

Our pastorís gift is exhortation, without a doubt. He jokes around sometimes that he could be described as ěBapticostalî because of his ěspellsî he tends to go into when preaching. He gets fired up, and his face will turn red, and starts to hollering to the point he has to stop and settle himself down. He claims itís his Native American Indian blood in him that gets him stirred up. He is an old fashioned hellfire and brimstone Southern Baptist preacher. Anyway, the subject I am referring to has to do with the Holy Spirit speaking through preachers. He seems to feel that if he is speaking biblical truth and God is laying something on his heart then God is speaking to us through him. This, to me, is very touchy ground. Because, if he is convicted of a certain interpretation of scripture and the Holy Spirit is inspiring him to preach it then he is actually acting in the role of a prophet as well as our pastor. However, I donít always agree with him when he is preaching, although I do believe God is using him to bring people to Christ. He is truly committed to the pure gospel of grace and powerfully testifies every week of his thankfulness to Jesus Christ for his salvation, and he preaches out of the bible.

Here is my question/thought. Canít the pastor speak his conviction on scripture, as he understands it, bringing sinners to the altar of confession, baptizing them, making disciples and so forth while not speaking, as a prophet, the inerrant word of God? It is worrisome to me that there seems to be a trend here of him moving towards the Holy Spirit speaking through the pastor, as a prophet. It seems to me he is going to box himself in some day, as the SDA church has, with such statements if he finds himself convicted on having to change his understanding of scripture. By the way, he is a proponent of the pre-7 year tribulation, secret rapture eschatology.

What do you think?
Dd
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Username: Dd

Post Number: 11
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 9:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Doug, there is a bunch of us just new to this forum. Welcome from another new poster!

I am with you regarding an uneasy feeling with someone telling me his words are specifically for me because God told him. I am sure it has a great deal to do with what we have left behind. I think the fact that you are uncomfortable speaks to the voice you are listening to! I just got finished posting a response to Grace on another area of this forum. What I said regarding the Holy Spirit applies to this topic, too. There are many, many Old and New Testament promises regarding the Holy Spirit and His indwelling in our lives. I think our background can also lead us to doubt that still small voice in the back of our minds. We were never blessed with the teaching of the Fruits of the Spirit so we have "trained" ourselves to shrug those thoughts away. I would encourage you to do a thorough seach of the Holy Spirit in the Bible. I Cor 12:7 tells us that we each have a manifestation of the Spirit. Listen to what He has specifically for you (Check out I Cor. 3:16 and John 16:7, 12-15).

Best wishes in your search for His will. You will find it!!

I am looking forward to hearing your "story".
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 397
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 9:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome, Doug! We're glad you're here.

There's one thing to remember, Doug: we have only ONE inerrant rule of faith: the Bible. While without any doubt, the Holy Spirit does gift members of His Body with prophetic gifts, they are for the building up and encouragement of the body, not for the establishment of doctrine. If someone claims inspiration from God and proceeds to teach something upon which the Scripture is not clear (i.e. pre-tribulation rapture), you must go back to the Bible and evaluate the teaching by the words of Scripture.

I do believe, also, that the Holy Spirit gifts members of the body with gifts of exhortation and teaching. It's just important to remember that whatever they exhort upon or teach MUST be consistent with Scripture in context.

Dd's advice is good; see what the Bible has to say about the Holy Spirit in your life, and ask God to convict you of what you need to know and of what His will is for you regarding this situation. Sometimes we become aware of problems in a fellow brother or sister for the purpose of praying for them. Sometimes, our awareness is for the sake of our protection. One prayer I continue to pray for myself is that God will protect me from deception and that He will give me discernment.

With prayers for you in this situation,

Colleen
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 690
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 10:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome, Doug. Your entry is interesting. I tend to be leery of the title prophit (profit?). Even Martin Luther never claimed to be a prophit and nor do Luherans refer to him in that term. They refer to him as a man led by God, in those sort of words. But, in my way of understanding the word prophit implys much more. My advice is just watch and listen closely and pay close attention. There are scores of churchs listed in the yellow pages.
Pw
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Username: Pw

Post Number: 27
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 11:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'd be a little careful at those who claim to have special messages or visions from God because that's how we all fell into the SDA movement in the first place by listening to such ideas. The Bible will guide, speak and lead you as you seek God with all your heart and soul. He will not lead you astray. I'm not saying that you should reject spiritual advice, just make sure it is in according to the scriptures and not someone else's interpretation.
Esther
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Username: Esther

Post Number: 25
Registered: 5-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 11:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wecome Doug. I think everyone here will share you unease on this subject. Just something from leaving the SDA behind I guess. I was reading a couple weeks ago and something jumped out at me though. It's Collosians 2:16-19 - a verse that I'd read a hundred times since I started studying. The emphasis is mine.

"Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--
things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Let NO ONE KEEP DEFRAUDING YOU OF YOUR PRIZE by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, TAKING HIS STAND ON VISIONS HE HAS SEEN, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,
and NOT HOLDING FAST TO THE HEAD, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God."

To me this also includes claiming to be a prophet, or having prophetic gifts...that may not line up with the Scriptures.

Just a thought.
Doug_s
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Username: Doug_s

Post Number: 2
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 5:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks everyone for your advice and bible texts. I will study them and pray over this. I am concerned about this and will keep a close watch on what, if anything, develops. Actually, I have spent a good bit of time in bible study on the Holy Spirit. It was He who opened my eyes to understanding the scriptures and made me see the errors in SDA doctrine. It's interesting to note that my journey out of Adventism began with a challenge from a Mormon neighbor to my wife on our belief of the trinity. Some day soon I will share my story. Once again thanks.
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 234
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 6:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome Doug. You have come to a good place.
I agree with what every one has said. I am just new out of adventism and am studying also. So I listen to those who have been out a while and follow up on what they say.
I will pray for you that God's Holy Spirit will show you what you need to know.
We truly have an awesome God.
Diana
Thomas1
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Username: Thomas1

Post Number: 122
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 6:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doug S.

As "Christian" speak means something different to an SDA, so SDA speak, means something different to most mainstream Christians. The "Prophetic" gift is NOT the EGW style of thing. To Most Christians, one who is "prohpetic" is one who either explains the word or has sharp insite into things. I am sure if you would mention this fear of yours to your pastor, he would be more appalled that he had given this impression, than you are.

In a class setting of pastors, I was once told that I had the gift of "prophecy". I was definately NOT ready to think of being called such a thing! Until they explained their reasoning. They were saying that when we discussed scripture, I had an ability to make things more understandable. Grateful, yes, but ready to accept the title, Nope!

Being a good Southern Baptist, myself, I can't imagine that your pastor is calling himself a EGW or a Joseph Smith, for his church.

Just one mans thoughts on this!

<><
Thomas
Doug_s
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Username: Doug_s

Post Number: 4
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 4:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Thomas. I'm sure you're right. I guess nothing else seems to indicate that he meant to describe himself as an EGW-type prophet. Although, a point that is brought up through this is the idea that if he thinks he is speaking something God has laid on his heart and is speaking through him and yet it is something I clearly disagree with, like the Left Behind nonsense (just my opinion), what am I to make of that? Either God is or He isn't speaking through this man, or, is God's word being distorted by my pasor's humanity? What's the difference between a teacher and a prophet? They both are gifts of the Spirit. In my studies I have learned that the gift of prophecy must always align with the scriptures. That's why the spirit of prophecy is subject to the prophets. If someone speaks something that the Lord has laid on their heart, it should always align with scripture, otherwise it should be rejected (Berean style). So, if my pastor is claiming that God has laid something on his heart and is exhorting us as only a good Southern Baptist preacher can :-), what am I to make of it? I really do appreciate your's and others' opinion on this.

Doug
Pw
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Username: Pw

Post Number: 30
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 9:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doug, I'm not sure where you live but you may want to try a Calvary Chapel if you have one nearby just to see if it would help you in your new walk. They really focus on some very in-depth Bible teachings. Check out calvarychapel.com and look at the map for the churches across the country. If none are close by you can always read or listen to various online. Calvary Chapel Ft. Lauderdale has a very extensive variety to choose from.
Doug_s
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Username: Doug_s

Post Number: 7
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 10:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Pw, I appreciate the thought. Actually, there is a Calvary Chapel nearby, and another one a little further away. At this time my wife and I are pretty happy where we are. We attend the First Baptist Church of Woodstock, Georgia. Johnny Hunt is the senior pastor. I hope I didn't give the impression we are looking to leave the church we are currently attending. I'm sorry if I came across that way. I guess I'm just on my guard these days for anything that may sound suspicious. I truly enjoy my Sunday school class, I go out on Wednesday visitation and our two children are receiving outstanding ministry. There are advantages to attending a mega-church, in the realm of available ministries and resources. I feel like my Sunday school class is my church family. The men have a moving ministry, we help each other load and unload our furniture and things when someone moves into another home. I am blessed to be a part of such wonderful group of Christian brothers and sisters. But again, thanks for your thoughtfulness. If anyone is interested, we have an online services broadcast each Sunday. Website is www.fbcw.org.
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 405
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 11:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doug, I've found that it's possible to disagree with certain interpretive particulars with a pastor and still learn from him and also to grow from my involvement with the church body. While I am uncomfortable with someone saying he has been told by God to each something--and then to discover it's not really biblical--I am not so bothered by someone teaching his understanding of something without the "I was shown" claim!

Thomas, good point about the understanding of "prophetic gifts". Based on you comments here over the years, I would say I agree that you have the gift of declaring biblical truth. The phenomenon of spiritual gifts being given by God for the building up of the body is such an amazing thing--and to think that for years, the reality of these gifts escaped me completely!

Colleen
Pw
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Username: Pw

Post Number: 34
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 12:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doug,

You go where you will grow, that's the bottom line of it all.
Doug_s
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Username: Doug_s

Post Number: 9
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 12:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen, At this point in my spiritual walk, if I allowed myself to only associate with those I was in complete agreement I would most likely be standing in a field alone somewhere. :-) The points of doctrine in which I disagree with my local brothers and sisters are not what I consider essential to Christianity and salvation. We are all members of the same body of Christ as far as I am concerned. I love them dearly and I am growing from my involvement with them.

It's interesting that the SDA church I was a member of here was interested in helping me discover my spiritual gift, through a survey, but I don't think the gift of prophecy was on the list (that spot was already occupied), and certainly not speaking in tongues (of which I know little). I believe they wanted to know what my gift was so they could tap into my skill set, e.g. lawyer, doctor, administrator, etc. And whether or not I would go straight to the head of the class (boards, committees,etc.)


Doug
Doc
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Username: Doc

Post Number: 92
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 9:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello everyone,

I am still in Wales, but I managed to get to a computer so I can check up on the list. Nice to see a few new people have joined. I should be back in Hungary in about a fortnightís time.

Just some comments on the prophetic ministry. It is interesting that the New Testament has little teaching on what the ministry of a New Covenant prophet is, though it makes it clear that there is such a thing (e.g. Acts 13: 1, 15: 32, 1 Cor 12: 28, Eph 4: 11).

As far as I am aware, the Bible only records two specific messages spoken by any New Covenant prophet, one named Agabus, and these are found in Acts 11: 27-28 and Acts 21:10-11. As this is pretty well all the information we have, then I think it is worth while looking at the character of these messages to see what they are, and what they are not.

For a start, although there is revelation here, which could not have been known without the help of the Holy Spirit, there is no revelation of new doctrine, or new theological insights. The messages do not conflict with the theology of Scripture, but they do not add to our knowledge of God in any way either. It is practical information, or a warning, which needs to be acted upon. It seems Agabus is using his gift to help people, not to create a following for himself, or manipulate people into listening to him because God is speaking through him. These points would therefore refute the ministries of EGW, Joseph Smith and their ilk.

Another point is, that the messages have nothing to do with the interpretation, explanation, or clarification of existing Scriptures. That sounds more like the ministry of a teacher.

Where does the idea come from that prophetic gifts are for interpreting Scripture? Does this actually have any basis in the Bible?

Bye for now,
Adrian
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 428
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 11:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's a really good question, Adrian--I've wondered the same thing. My understanding is that the idea that prophets declare Scriptural truth for application today comes from the idea that prophets "speak for God", and today God's truth is found in the Bible, unlike Old Testament prophets who were given prophecies that became Scripture.

Agabus has also made me question the role of a new covenant prophet. He clearly did give two prophecies--one of a famine and one of Paul's eventual treatment in Rome--which came true. I have been hesitant to speak too dogmatically about the subject, because quite frankly, I'm not completely sure I can summarize the job of a new covenant prophet. I have believed, however, that sometimes prophetic gifts include warning or calling people to accountability, etc., in circumstances where details are not generally known, but the "prophet" has some insight or understanding that God has given him or her.

Oh, BTW, it's good to hear from you! Hope you're enjoying your time in Wales!

Colleen
Doc
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Username: Doc

Post Number: 93
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 5:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I must say I am not entirely sure of the answers myself, mainly because the Bible has so little information on the subject.

Thanks, BTW, I have been having a great time in Wales, England, and Germany, where I have been visiting old friends and catching up. It has been good to get away for a while and have a rest, as I have been very busy with church, college, work, etc..

God bless,
Adrian
Cindy
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Username: Cindy

Post Number: 610
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 11:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Doc, your travels sound fun!

I was just sent in the mail this week (from an Adventist who thinks I should return to the "truth") the February 2004 issue of "Ministry"...the magazine for Adventist pastors (it also goes out as a gift bi-monthly to many non-Adventist ministers.)

This particular issue is on 'Biblical Covenants, from Shadow to Substance' (you can imagine the conclusions...)

There is also an article entitled 'Ellen G. White: Prophetic voice for the last days', by Alberto Timm. He illuminates why we need an additional aid in understanding the Bible!

"God gave us a modern manifestation of the gift of prophecy through the writings of Ellen White to help us break away from the human traditions that conspire against the Word of God. Those writings are a divine prophetic filter that helps us to remove all the human rubble that tradition has artificially imposed on the Bible so that the divine message of the Scritures can flow pure and clean into our hearts."

There it is, and very recent indeed, an admission on how EGW is used! As a filter...

Used as such, how can ones eyes ever be opened to the Truth of Jesus' sufficiency!?

With EGW to filter out error (non-SDA belief!) and filter in her version of "truth", only the miracle of the Holy Spirit can open one's eyes fully. What a joy and relief to have that veil removed, not needing that "filter" anymore!

grace always,
cindy
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 281
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 8:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Amen and Amen again to not needing EGW as a filter when we study the Bible.
Diana
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 451
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 10:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, Cindy--that's a very pointed assertion. I do believe the church is becoming increasingly "historic" and worrying less and less about teaching "evangelically correct-sounding" words. While the PR machine busily deceives people into putting their toes into Adventist waters without letting them know it's "Adventist", the inside workings of the church are increasingly party-line, it seems.

I pray that God wll reveal truth.

Colleen

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