| Author | Message | ||
| Hallanvaara Registered user Username: Hallanvaara Post Number: 57 Registered: 1-2004 |
The headline may shock some of you but that¥s almost exactly what I¥ve heard some people say about Paul. To me, too, Paul sounds some times quite strict, legalized and opposite Gospel¥s message. That¥s why so many of those legalizers use Paul to support their views. Like Rom.7:16 where Paul says:"...law is good.." But I¥ve learned to understand what Paul is actually saying. I think much of Paul¥s character shines through his writings. Paul is hot tempered and passionate person. What he does, he does it with great enthusiasm. Taking Paul¥s separate sentences out of context you can push your law obeying opinions through like SDA church does. But the main question: why people think Paul almost destroyed the message of Gospel? Tuija | ||
| Grace_g Registered user Username: Grace_g Post Number: 13 Registered: 7-2004 |
Tuija, I have just been reading through the New Testament over the last month, and am just past Phillipians. This is the second time that I've read through the New Testament by myself, but the first time that I feel that I'm reading it without blinders on. [remember I'm just a baby-non SDA  ]. I have been struck time and time again by how clearly and passionately Paul argues against being chained to the law, and for grace and into the new convenent. In fact, many times I have lowered my reading and said to my husband, "how in the world have I ever missed the meaning of this before? It is so clear!" In fact, I felt like the entire book of Galations was written specifically to me. I have found that many of the proof texts that have been burned in my memory as pro law, are immediately refuted by Paul one or two verses later. The verses that I NEVER saw growing up in the church. I have found Paul to use a rather standard formula of discourse in the letters that I have read so far in where he: 1. sets up the problem 2. describes old covenent 3. talks about why the old covenent was good 4. BUT how the new covenent is even better, and does away with the old covenent. I have found that the SDA proof texts for being under law to come from #3óand that's where they stop. So at this point in my development, I can't understand why people think Paul amost destroyed the message of the Gospel. Are these people to whom you are referring non SDAs, SDAs, or most Christians? Grace | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 607 Registered: 7-2000 |
Hi Tuija and Grace, :-) I've always thought of Paul as a great defender of the Gospel... I think of his open talk to Peter when Peter was "clearly in the wrong"--Galations 2--and other Jewish Christians "joined him in his hypocrisy". Paul told them that they "were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel" by separating themselves from eating with the Gentiles as usual when the "circumcision group" arrived on the scene. Paul knew Peter was "afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group" (those under the Old Covenant Law!). A definite spiritual veil remains in place when the Old Covenant (or a mixture thereof of Old and New as seen thru the filter of SDA/EGW doctrine) is taught as a guideline in the life of Jesus Christ believers! It is really so much better having the Holy Spirit as our guide, isn't it? Our whole identity being fully met in Jesus Christ alone! grace always, cindy | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 22 Registered: 7-2004 |
I LOVE this topic!!! Grace, I too have been picking through Galations this summer. I believe the heart of the message of Galations is that I need to remove all the obstacles in my path to Christ except for the cross! Chapter 3 verses 15 - 29 are so very, very clear what Paul's belief was regarding the law. The law was given to SHOW me my need for Christ! It is only my reference guide to bring me to Christ that I may be justified by Christ -- not by my works!!! Then Paul is even more clear in chapter 5 (vs 4) that legalism seperates me from Christ (all those years of debating and worrying if I should go out to eat after church, or if I should bake cookies for a party before the sun was set...the list goes on and on...was keeping me from accepting the gift that Jesus died for). My daughter once asked me, "If God really loved His Son so much why didn't He just come down here to die Himself? Why did He have to send Jesus?" I had to stop and think about that for a few days. Then it hit me. As a mother, would I rather suffer for my own children than to watch helplessly while they suffered? A thousand times YES!!! What a loving God we have to have endured so very much for fallen humanity. It must be a stab in the heart of God when He watches people struggle for their own salvation (through their works) and basically turn their backs on His Grace! Read Galatians 5:6 and change the word "cirumcision" to "Sabbath" (in the legalistic term). It puts a new light into what Paul was talking about. The whole discussion of what Paul was talking about is then referenced in 5:16-18...it's the New Covenent! And what is walk by the Spirit? The famous verses of 22 and 23. If everyone in this world threw away the law, accepted Christ and lived with His Spirit, where would we be?! Is that Heaven? M-m-m-m, I think so! Oh, how I wish this would have been so clear to me growing up. Just think of the bad choices and hard consequences that would not have occured. GIVE ME JESUS!!!! | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 32 Registered: 5-2004 |
What a great topic! I've been studying only since January and Galatians has been by far the brightest light. Not to de-emphasis everything else...but Galatians was written for me...I'm sure. And Grace, I've said the same thing. How ever did I miss this before...Paul is SO clear. But, whenever I talk to SDA friends they tell my I'm twisting him. It's all I can do to say, read him straight, I'm not twisting, you just don't see it. We've started a study group at our home and have been going through Galtians with everyone who will come. What a blessing. Praise the Father for Jesus! | ||
| Grace_g Registered user Username: Grace_g Post Number: 14 Registered: 7-2004 |
It really is amazing that I have lived for 34 years and was unable to see how clearly, time and time again, Paul talks of the gift of grace being the only way through acceptance of Jesus. He hammers away, time and time again, about how the Law was good, it served a purpose, but it is no longer necessary for salvation. What really opened my eyes is when Paul talks in Romans 4 of how Abraham's faith was credit as righteousness. Abraham didn't even HAVE the law; everything he performed was under faith. When I read that I was stunned. That had never occurred to me before. As an Adventist, I thought time began after Moses came down with the 10 commandements! - lol. It really brought home to me that God created the law for a specific time for a specific placeóto educate the Isrealites on how to behave and how to worship Him after years of enslavement with the Egyptians, as they had forgotten howóand how that purpose was DONE AWAY WITH upon the death of Jesus. How the law was not even NEEDED until the time that God gave it. I know I'm preaching to the choir, but I feel like all the puzzle pieces are just falling into place for me here. Every evening I read, and every evening all I can do is say, "I can't believe I never understood this before!" "Look it's so clear!" "How could anyone read this and NOT understand the purpose of the law?" It's really just a lot of reading, me snorting, then rolling my eyes in disgust at how blind I was before. It's really amusing to my husband, after years and years of my hiding behind carefully selected proof texts. ;) Grace | ||
| Grace_g Registered user Username: Grace_g Post Number: 15 Registered: 7-2004 |
ps: My huband and I read the Bible together, silently, then discuss passages together if we need to. I read fast, and am eager to learn, so I don't want him to slow me down. ;) He's about a chapter behind me. Sometimes I'll be so amazed at what I read that I'll read it aloud and say, "does your Bible say the same thing?!" I always have to check because I can't believe what I'm reading. It never fails to amuse him. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 23 Registered: 7-2004 |
Oh Grace! You put a smile on my face. Same story - different life! My husband was raised SDA but never "bought into" all the legalism. I bought it all and lived it with my whole heart until after college. He was a wild boy - drank, tried drugs, had sex with girlfriends... By the time we married I had given up trying to be "perfect". It was exhausting. Neither of us had much desire for church or God (but then as an SDA there really was no distinction between the two - church was hard-nosed and unemotional so that meant God was, too). Eight years later our daughter was born. As she grew so did my interest in having her know God (which, of course, meant having her know the SDA church). By the time she was 2, I had her in SS faithfully every Sabbath. When it came time to go to Kindergarten I had her enrolled in the public school down the road - neither my husband or I had ever gone to a public school but the SDA did not have a kindergarten. The little neighbor boy was also signed up to be in the same public school class so I was horrified when I looked out the window to check on them in our backyard and he was kissing her "like in the movies" (so he told me!). I immediately called the non-denominational Christian school in town and filled out an application. It was there that I was around Christians who talked constantly of their love for Jesus. It was the most amazing experience I had ever had! I remember thinking, "What have I been missing?" and for the first time had a desire to really search for "truth" on my own. Many times I would read and see the clarity of the gospel and wonder how I was so "snookered" for so long! That was 7 years ago and I am still jumping for joy when I discover a new understanding! So...I'm going into a long, drawn-out story just to say, "Amen!" and to let you know that I completely understand your astonishment, amazement and joy! I went through a period of anger towards the SDA church but God has lead me through that and my growth in Him has been such a blessing because of what I was raised to believe. I understand James telling us to consider our trials as pure joy (1:2,3). I like the challenge in Hebrews (9:14). God will restore our wasted years of "dead works". Look at Paul's life. Talk about a zealot for "works" (check out Acts 26:11). God certainly restored his life to unspeakable joy and comfort. When God promised the Israelites He would deliver them, through the prophet Joel, He promised them, when they returned to Him, He would make up to them for all their years of hardship (2:25). He does the same for us today... "THAT HE WOULD GRANT YOU, ACCORDING TO THE RICHES OF HIS GLORY, TO BE STRENGTHENED WITH POWER THROUGH HIS SPIRIT IN THE INNER MAN, SO THAT CHRIST MAY DWELL IN YOUR HEARTS THROUGH FAITH; AND THAT YOU BEING ROOTED AND GROUNDED IN LOVE, MAY BE ABLE TO COMPREHEND WITH ALL THE SAINTS WHAT IS THE BREADTH AND LENGTH AND HEIGHT AND DEPTH, AND TO KNOW THE LOVE OF CHRIST WHICH SURPASSES KNOWLEDGE, THAT YOU MAY BE FILLED UP TO ALL THE FULLNESS OF GOD". (Ephesians 3:16-19) My pray for all of us "formers" is that we will continue searching and growing and be filled up to all His fullness! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 414 Registered: 12-2003 |
Amen, Dd! I used to read Paul and feel confused. Some things I read and just decided to ignore because they didn't make sense. The experience everyone is describing here can only be explained by the new birth. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned--we simply cannot understand the gospel or the amazing contrast between the Old Covenant and the New which Paul continually describes without the Holy Spirit teaching us. Truly, Galatians is THE book for former Adventists! The essence of Adventist theology is the heresy of Galatianism. I am SO THANKFUL for God's faithfulness--do you ever stand back in amazement when you realize that hundreds and thousands of people who don't know each other read the Bible, pray for God to reveal truth--and come up with THE SAME UNDERSTANDING?! And this phenomenon has been going on for 2,000 years? Wow, the narrow arrogance of having been part of the Remnant that began in the early 19th century and formed around "new light"! Praise God for the "ancient words" and for the Holy Spirit! Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 701 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dd, If your kin are like mine they had an easier time defending you and dealing with you and yor husband while you were in your wild years then they do now. This is because as long as you were wild they still had the hope that you would still coe back to the truth. Now that you are no longer wild but have actually found Christianity they feel all is lost. Anyway, that is how my kin are. It's totally wacked! | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 37 Registered: 6-2004 |
This is so amazing. I just happened to be reading Galatians this week on my own and was really looking into how Paul had to correct Peter about his ways in still trying to hold to the old law. This is a really like a spiritual web among this forum topic. | ||
| Hallanvaara Registered user Username: Hallanvaara Post Number: 58 Registered: 1-2004 |
Grace, those persons were non-SDAs. And I was a little bit confused because I never knew what they actually ment. I just heard or read from here and there that kind of comments. That¥s why I wanted to ask you if you knew better why some people have come to this conclusion. These writings in this topic gave me one answer. It¥s about new birth. People who don¥t REALLY know Jesus and haven¥t experienced new birth can¥t grasp for example Paul. They say they love Jesus but the way they understand Gospel reveals their real relationship. They can¥t see beyond those words "law is good" and just stuck there. It¥s about denominations,too. Disciples of denominations have taught to read Bible certain way and they just can¥t understand some parts of Bible at all. SDAs read Bible very picky way. I remember when I started to read Bible after I rejected adventism and Holy Spirit has brightened Sabbath to me I was SO AMAZED what I found there. It was like I never had read Bible before and found there totally new information. Before I was very confused with lots of things that was in Bible and just ignored them. I couldn¥t fit them with adventism logic. Which actually was the truth. SDAs read their proof texts and about 75 % of Bible seem to be without use. Every day I¥m more and more grateful to my Lord that He chose me to follow Him! Tuija | ||
| Doug_s Registered user Username: Doug_s Post Number: 15 Registered: 7-2004 |
"Ancient words ever true Changing me and changing you We have come with open hearts Oh let the ancient words impart" | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 422 Registered: 12-2003 |
Doug, I love that song! Tuija, I completely understand your comment, "Every day I'm more and more grateful to my Lord that He chose me to follow Him!" You're also right that unless a person has been born again, they really cannot understand the Bible. Paul, with his detailed teaching of how the gospel changes us and functions in our saved souls but still-mortal bodies, is pure foolishness apart from the awakening of the Holy Spirit. Whenever a person comes to know Jesus--and whenever an Adventist finds Jesus--it is nothing short of a miracle. God does choose, call, and save us! Praise Him! Colleen |
