| Author | Message | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 248 Registered: 3-2004 |
I cannot find on here who asked the question about where the information is about EGW talking to her dead husband James. I went and searched all the web sites and found it. But that one article is no longer there. The web site is www.lastdisciple.com. I found the title "EGW talks to dead James" and clicked on it. It is no longer there. That is where I first read it. Diana | ||
| Nancy Registered user Username: Nancy Post Number: 4 Registered: 6-2004 |
How strange, wouldn't you say? I would like to read it if you do find it by chance. | ||
| Dennisrainwater Registered user Username: Dennisrainwater Post Number: 95 Registered: 8-2000 |
Perhaps you may be looking for this article: Ellen White Takes Advice From Her Dead Husband James (Shudder!) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 254 Registered: 3-2004 |
Thanks, Dennisrainwater. I looked all over for that article. Diana | ||
| Doug_s Registered user Username: Doug_s Post Number: 14 Registered: 7-2004 |
If anyone wants to go straight to the source you can find the information on the E.G. White Estate website, which has all the released published writings of EGW. The address is http://www.egwestate.andrews.edu/. You can search on anything she wrote that has been released by the GC. The dream she had of taking advice from her dead husband James is there for anyone to read. I recommend this site for anyone who wants to verify many of the claims made about her. I found this particular subject in two separate listings, one of which I am including in this post, for anyone that may be interested. The Retirement Years, page 161, paragraph 1 ñ page 163, paragraph 2 Chapter Title: The Hour of Bereavement Ellen Dreams of James Shortly After His Death A few days since, I was pleading with the Lord for light in regard to my duty. In the night I dreamed I was in the carriage, driving, sitting at the right hand. Father was in the carriage, seated at my left hand. He was very pale, but calm and composed. "Why Father," I exclaimed, "I am so happy to have you by my side once more! I have felt that half of me was gone. Father, I saw you die; I saw you buried. Has the Lord pitied me and let you come back to me again, and we work together as we used to?" He looked very sad. He said, "The Lord knows what is best for you and for me. My work was very dear to me. We have made a mistake. We have responded to urgent invitations of our brethren to attend important meetings. We had not the heart to refuse. These meetings have worn us both more than we were aware. Our good brethren were gratified, but they did not realize that in these meetings we took upon us greater burdens than at our age we could safely carry. They will never know the result of this long-continued strain upon us. God would have had them bear the burdens we have carried for years. Our nervous energies have been continuously taxed, and then our brethren misjudging our motives and not realizing our burdens have weakened the action of the heart. I have made mistakes, the greatest of which was in allowing my sympathies for the people of God to lead me to take work upon me which others should have borne. "Now, Ellen, calls will be made as they have been, desiring you to attend important meetings, as has been the case in the past. But lay this matter before God and make no response to the most earnest invitations. Your life hangs as it were upon a thread. You must have quiet rest, freedom from all excitement and from all disagreeable cares. We might have done a great deal for years with our pens, on subjects the people need that we have had light upon and can present before them, which others do not have. Thus you can work when your strength returns, as it will, and you can do far more with your pen than with your voice." He looked at me appealingly and said, "You will not neglect these cautions, will you, Ellen? Our people will never know under what infirmities we have labored to serve them because our lives were interwoven with the progress of the work, but God knows it all. I regret that I have felt so deeply and labored unreasonably in emergencies, regardless of the laws of life and health. The Lord did not require us to carry so heavy burdens and many of our brethren so few. We ought to have gone to the Pacific Coast before, and devoted our time and energies to writing. Will you do this now? Will you, as your strength returns, take your pen and write out these things we have so long anticipated, and make haste slowly? There is important matter which the people need. Make this your first business. You will have to speak some to the people, but shun the responsibilities which have borne us down." "Well," said I, "James, you are always to stay with me now and we will work together." Said he, "I stayed in Battle Creek too long. I ought to have gone to California more than one year ago. But I wanted to help the work and institutions at Battle Creek. I have made a mistake. Your heart is tender. You will be inclined to make the same mistakes I have made. Your life can be of use to the cause of God. Oh, those precious subjects the Lord would have had me bring before the people, precious jewels of light!" I awoke. But this dream seemed so real. Now you can see and understand why I feel no duty to go to Battle Creek for the purpose of shouldering the responsibilities in General Conference. I have no duty to stand in General Conference. The Lord forbids me. That is enough. -- Letter 17, 1881. Doug | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 255 Registered: 3-2004 |
Thanks Doug for the web site and where to look for quotes and information on EGW. There has been so much deception by the SDA church and I try to have things correct when helping others. Diana | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 38 Registered: 6-2004 |
One bible verse that's a powerful tool is the part where Jesus and his transformation speaking with Moses and Elijah. Now we know Elijah didn't experience a natural death, we know Moses did. Was Jesus speaking to the "breath" of Moses? Hardly. | ||
| Patrickfoy Registered user Username: Patrickfoy Post Number: 11 Registered: 3-2004 |
I don't mean this in a mean or nasty way, but now that I have been enlightened with the "Real Truth" of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I feel that the things that Ellen White saw and some of the things that she wrote were a direct result of the head injury she substained has a child, when hit with a rock. That is just my own feeling and I don't mean to hurt anyones feelings and I try my best not to say anything that does not up lift Christ. But, I think it is true that she was mentally ill. Patrick | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 712 Registered: 11-2002 |
That has always been the way I thought it. Her head injury must have been very suvere to have left her in a coma for three weeks. I'm sure if she were alive today with the modern medications we have for head injries her life would be very different than it was then. I've had the unabashed nerve back when I was younger and more brazen in voicing my opinions to to the SDA's in my life that EGw did not have visions but she did have hullucianions. There is a vast difference between the two and I still agree with my initial assessment. the difference is I'm older not and have learned to not say things I know will emotionally upset those I love. | ||
| Hallanvaara Registered user Username: Hallanvaara Post Number: 61 Registered: 1-2004 |
Patrick, even doctors who examined EGW said that same thing. This sentence is from www.ellenwhite.org: "Medical books and cyclopedias, under the words "hysteria," "epilepsy," "catalepsy" and "ecstasy," in describing these affections, give a complete description of Mrs. White's cases, as stated by herself, her husband and others." More of EGW:s health is found there. Tuija | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 392 Registered: 7-2003 |
Maybe I'm a little harsh, but to use the rock-thing as a scapegoat for her actions seems a little too convenient. I'm sure she had dreams as we all do, but we don't assume our dreams are from God and for the entire world to follow. Similarly, I'm sure she may have had some hallucinations as Susan mentioned, but I think there was a hefty portion of time she was faking it for the people who were around her...like the saturn/jupiter vision which conveniently convinced a wealthy skeptic of her "authenticity". The more I look at Adventism from the outside, the more I see thing after thing to divert attention from Christ, all the while saying Christ demands us focus upon those things. There is a difference in having a medical condition you can't control and having one you use to manipulate others. Though it may not have been every time, there are enough times she has used it to her advantage that I find her to be a complete fraud. I can't guage her sincerity, but when I read her public chastisements of people who claim innocence of her "visions" ... the damage she caused people's lives and is still causing people ... I just can't give her too much credit for innocence. The people around her who exploited her are also to be blamed, but though they may have aided her along the way, she went along willingly and seems to have learned some tricks of her own. I'm told her theology did a real change in 1888 when she started hanging around Wagonner, but he also eventually became an outsider because of his stand for the gospel. So, though it's impossible to judge her real motives, what she knew and didn' t know, there is plenty of evidence to convict her of willful fraud even if mixed in with some medical challenges. I say this as the parent of a retarded child. It doesn't mean stupid. They can learn to manipulate and have a basic understanding of right and wrong. I don't thing EGW was nearly as impaired as my daughter is and my daughter is quite capable of manipulation and some basic sense of right and wrong. My 2 cents.... | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 40 Registered: 6-2004 |
I think Melissa is very accurate in what she wrote above. Anyone can claim they have visions and get people to follow them, just look at other "visionaries" as Joseph Smith, Charles Russell, Rev. Moonie, Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc. All claim to have received a special insight that only leads people astray. Paul wrote about this problem in his day with the Gnostics and knew it would be an ongoing problem and warned about those who preach another gospel different from the one he gave. He even stated that if an angel preaches another gospel let him be accursed. And that's exactly what the so-called angel who appeared to Joseph Smith did, and now has lead many into Mormonism. It's very clear that EGW falls into this same crowd. Multitudes will turn from the truth to follow a leader rather than the Holy Spirit. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 260 Registered: 3-2004 |
The more I read of and about EGW, the more I am convinced she cooperated in all she did, for her own reasons (money???, prestige???) and not because what she did was correct Biblically or because she loved God. She is a false prophet and that is all I need to know. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 427 Registered: 12-2003 |
I agree, Melissa. While I believe she may have had temporal lobe seizures, I don't believe those seizures are her whole story. She managed to have 'way too many "visions" when doctrines needed confirming. Further, her visions stopped when she reached midlife (often typical of certain seizure or hysterical conditions), but then she continued to have direction in the form of dreams. Her dreams, moreover, were usually directed by the same handsome angelic guide each time. Nope, I can't dismiss her as a misused, handicapped person whose disability was used for others' purposes. I do believe that James did use and manipulate her "visions", especially in the early years, but as time went on, she was a willing participant, and she herself claimed God showed her the spurious things she wrote. As Diana said above, "She is a false prophet, and that is all I need to know." Colleen | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 355 Registered: 1-2003 |
Now that I am far enough away to see clearly...I have to ask...why do people, (who were also provided with the Holy Spirit when they believed), want to look to someone who had (maybe?) the same thing they did? Know what I mean? It's as if they didn't know they also had a direct link to God by the Holy Spirit and had to have her to get to Him and know His will. I don't get it! And if they read James (a book adored by SDA's cause they can twist it to promote law keeping) it says that if you put one person above another (a respector of persons)it is a sin...boy did they (and she) do that! We are all competent ministers of the New Covenant...you don't have to be specially trained to spread the Gospel (contrast that with all the Rabbinical training that went into teaching OT law)we can all do it! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 431 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great point, Pheeki! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 263 Registered: 3-2004 |
I like what Pheeki said above. All I can do is repeat what the preacher said at church 2 weeks ago. "Before we share the good news, we have to be good news". EGW was/is not good news. Diana | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 609 Registered: 7-2000 |
Melissa, I always enjoy your reading your viewpoint on Adventism...as seen from a Christian on the "outside". I'm glad you've been confident of the Truth of Jesus's sufficiency to not be pulled into Adventisms' doctrines. grace always, cindy | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 840 Registered: 11-2002 |
I was at my moms a bit ago. As usual on a Sunday morning she was watching FFT with Mark Findley. His topic was that to believe the spirits of the dead aren't really dead incourages people to "talk to the dead", 'to seek counsil from the dead". He gave their tollfree # and their web address so I guess I need to call and write to them about egw consulting with dead James. How come my mom is glued to her tv on Sunday mornings soaking up everything one of those sda preschers blab about but to actually go to a church on Sunday is wrong? It's then called "Sunday-keeping"? I asked her that before (as well as several other sda's I know). They just get mad at me and tell me I'm being stupid. I think it's just the opposite. They see how little that contradiction makes sense and rather than have a real answer for me they personally attack me. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 460 Registered: 3-2004 |
Susan_2, They have a closed mind, plugged ears and closed eyes so they cannot see the contradictions. And do not ever believe you are stupid. You are just asking honest questions which they cannot answer. So instead of saying I do not know the answer or I will look it up and get back to you, they attack you. As I have said before that is very sad. Diana | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 846 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dear Diana, Here is how it goes down, almost every time. I have a two year college degree in landscaping. I have my Bachlers in Liberal Arts and I'm 18 units towards a Masters in sociology. So, my sda kin figure I'm pretty good at book learning. So, when these religion discussions/attacts happen they will say things like, "Susan, I know you are smart. You have all those degrees and you've always done so well at school. It's only obivious that the sda follow the Bible. How come as smart as you are you can't understand the Bible?" Now for my interpertation of the above: "Susan, you must be fairly intelligent because you got good grades in college and you like learning. So, why are you so stupid that you can't figure out that the sda religion is the only religion that follows the Bible?" Even if I show them entire Bible passages to explain what I'm believing they will tell me that I don't understand what it REALLY means. Like, how can I not understand what it means when it says to eat what is set before you with praise and thanksgiving. That passage says, "whatever is set before you". My kin will tell me that it is obivious that the passage does not include pork because it is understood/a given that pork is not food, was never ment to be used for food so we KNOW it does not include pork. I will counter them by telling them that at that time many Gentiles were becommig Christian and these Christian converts did not have the pork prohibition, that the Jews did and they carried that over with them after becomming Christian from Jewishism. Then as the discussion/verbal assult deterioriates then they tell me how smart I am so they can't understand how come I can't understand the sda way is the right/the only right way. You know the saying, "Catch 22". That is what it turns into. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 22 Registered: 7-2004 |
I have often heard among SDA's that too much education (particularly in non-SDA schools) can cause someone to leave the SDA church. Has anyone else heard that? It certainly is a true statement, but it's always said with a shaking head and clicking tongue like too much education corrupts a person spiritually! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 574 Registered: 12-2003 |
Oh, yes--I've heard that! I've especially heard attacks against people going to non-SDA universities. In fact, I've very recently heard an angry jab at people studying at non-Adventist schools and losing their Adventist understanding. Somehow the implications of such attacks are completely lost on the attackers. Truth should be universally accessible. One should be able to hang onto it whether he goes to a non-SDA school or not. Brainwashing is truly an effective technique--based on observing its results on Adventists, I would say brainwashing is always associated with an evil influence. Truth can stand the test of investigation, as Dale Ratzlaff always says. Propoganda requires brainwashing to be believed. Praise God for truth! Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 851 Registered: 11-2002 |
I went to the local sda churh with my mom several times recently. They had the Saturday a.m. service beemed in live from the Soquel Campmeeting. The sda's are now getting very active in the California State University system and the U.S.C. system. Their plan is to have a very active campus ministry on all the California public universities soon. The dudes and dudettes up front at the church are all a gaa-gaa with excitement about this new outrach program. They also within the next several years plan on makig a home visit to every home in California with literature and an invitatio to come to church. This is quite a project. They are husseling for money like the winds of Hurricane Charlie. Watch out, all you Californians! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 576 Registered: 12-2003 |
How interesting. This proposed plan sounds like they might be borrowing ideas from Campus Crusade and similar ministries. I wonder how they'll structure their campus outreach? Once again, it seems there is an underlying idea that if they designed the right program, they could have successful evangelism in venues they aren't reaching. It often appears to me that Adventists are confused about why Christianity is often so "successful". They somehow believe that if they copy the programs, they'll have the involvement and the conversions. Jesus is the real secret of "success". Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 469 Registered: 3-2004 |
I find what is happening in California very interesting. I seem to remember that the Celebration churches were borrowed from another denomination. And not it looks like they are going to copy the Campus Crusade for Christ. What they do not realize is that when you talk about Christ, that is where the success is at. It is a sad situation to not know Jesus Christ. He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 436 Registered: 7-2003 |
A difference, however, is that many of these campus ministries feed into all denominations of mainstream churches, they are not a recruiting ground for their particular version of religion. I know there were denominational groups when I was in college too, but the non-denominational groups were not adversarial with those groups or competitive. They can "borrow" the format, but you can't bargain with the Spirit. Christians that go to college looking for Spiritual friends and connections will hopefully be able to discern truth from counterfeit. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 582 Registered: 12-2003 |
Good point, Melissa. I love your sentence, "They can 'borrow' the format, but you can't bargain with the Spirit." I was thinking similar thoughts about this proposal--some will be vulnerble to the Adventist ministry for a viarety of reasons, but the Holy Spirit can clarify truth to seekers. I'm so thankful for God's sovereignty! Colleen |
