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Sharon2
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Username: Sharon2

Post Number: 44
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 12:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Personally, I do not use Ellen White. Iíve gotten rid of her books (except Education. I like that book). Her opinion does not matter to me. But it is not serving the Lord for me to diminish her in the eyes of those who still find spiritual council there. I know many saved people who consider themselves blessed by her writings. It would be harmful for me to tear that blessing away from them. If the Lord wants to move them away from the theological slant of her work, then he will do itójust like he did it for so many of us.

The Lord places people in their positions, even people who seem to be totally evil, and he uses them for his purposes. Balak, a false prophet was used by the Lord to bless Israel and give one of the most important Messianic prophecies in the Bible. Saul, a demon possessed, corrupt king was never exposed or punished by David. Over and over again the kings of Judah and Israel were totally evil and finally God brings punishment on them and on the people through Assyria and Babylon. Then God tells how he is going to punish those nations because they dared to touch Israel and Judah! I avoid EGW writings, but I feel a real check in my spirit about speaking ill of her. God has made it clear to me that that is not my place.

Right now, I am in a 12-week study using the book, The Bait of Satan. It is about how God uses unjust and ungodly offensives to perfect our characters. The point of the offense (and I do understand the offensive nature of EGW) is not for us to rise up, point out the wrong and personally deal with it. The point is to let God deal with our natural reactions to being offendedóanger, bitterness, the desire to strike back, or just the desire to get that last word in and prove that we are right! Many current and former SDAís have been offended by EGW and they have held on to that offense, never laying it at the cross becoming bitter and angry. Do you know how to tell if you are hanging onto that offense? If you feel the emotions rising from the pit of your stomach when someone begins to talk about EGW or what she wrote, then you have not disposed of the offense.

We all have friends and relatives that love every word that woman has written or that they think she has written. The best thing we can do is look for the common ground, the places of agreement and avoid negative discussions. Those negative discussions just throw up barriers that the Lord has to break down so he can move them along. Yes, you can find many things in that vast library of EGW books that are theologically unsound, but she does meet the Biblical test of 1 John 4:1-3 because she does acknowledge that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. Pray for your family and friends then trust God to lead them. Salvation is not complicated. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. Yes, many are burdened with unnecessary legalism, but they have not thrown out the basic fact that Jesus, the perfect lamb of God, took their sins and died so they would not have to die.

I know that with this post, I am walking to the beat of a drum that most people on this forum do not beat, so, please do not take this post as a criticism of any opinions that have been stated. Itís just a different point of view that is being offered.

Sharon
Debbie
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Username: Debbie

Post Number: 77
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 10:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sharon,

I understand your concerns...

One of the main reasons for this website, discussion forum and the bible study groups, which meet on a weekly basis is to help people who have left the SDA church to heal from their losses, and to do it in a safe environment.

You probably already know this, but anyone who leaves a cult, whether it be a Mormon, SDA, JW, etc. loses friends, family relationships, community ties. Their world is literally torn apart.

I don't know if you've heard this before, but leaving a cult environment has been likened as parallel to a death. Thus, the grief process with its 5 stages (1. Denial/Isolation 2. Anger 3. Bargaining. 4. Depression. 5. Acceptance) is necessary for full recovery (Elisabeth Kubler-Ross, "On Death and Dying"). According to Kubler-Ross, everyone needs to experience each of these five stages for complete healing and resolution. Also, these stages, when experienced, are experienced for different periods of time, not necessarily in the same order, and persons can sometimes get "stuck" in a stage for an extended period of time.

To make things more difficult, people who haven't experienced cultic backgrounds (other Christians, for example) have a very difficult time comprehending the full extent and long-term psychological effects of being in a cult. (For example, they have no idea that leaving a cult is as traumatic as experiencing death).

In a book titled, "Out of the Cults and into the Church" by Janis Hutchison, entering a regular church is described as "Culture Shock" and she discusses how established Christians "have no idea how to handle an ex-cultist," and how "undoing beliefs is a long process" something that established Christians can be very insensitive towards and which can greatly alienate the ex-cultist.


What I've learned from personal experience is, of course, that Jesus does heal us. However, healing sometimes takes longer for deeper psychological wounds. Thus, not all wounds are healed instantly. And I believe very strongly that anger is a type of wound that should never be stuffed as if it were not there, because if it is stuffed, it will only take longer to heal and will come out in even more destructive ways. If we stuff our anger and pretend it's not there, we are in essence not giving Jesus the opportunity to heal it. We are hiding it "in the closet."

Of course God never forces himself on a person. He is patient, and he will encourage us, and convict us through his Holy Spirit, and of course, as Jeremiah 29 promises, if we seek him with all of our heart, we will be found by him, and will be brought out of bondage. Thus, as we submit--however slowly it may be--our hurts to him, he will be faithful to heal us of our hurts and angry feelings.

For me personally, it has been extremely therapeutic to be able to discuss my feelings in a safe environment. I have found that being able to discuss my feelings without threat of judgment by other people on this forum and at the FAF bible studies when I attended a few years back, has, over time, resulted in my anger greatly subsiding, and in great healing taking place. And I give the glory all to Jesus

I have really trully comprehended the depth of the truth that God already knows how I feel anyway, so there is no reason for me to hide my feelings. Besides that, being honest with MY feelings, I believe, helps others to feel less alone and alienated about their feelings, another reason for this forum!

Love,
Debbie
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 221
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 11:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When I did not rejoin the SDA church I did not know how cultic its doctrine is. A former SDA I met at the hospital mentioned it to me in January, that the church is considered a cult, but it did not register.
I know about the grief process, as my Mom died just two years ago and I had studied it previously.
I am looking at myself and where I am in the process. First of all, I am seeing more every day
how God has been leading out of Adventism for more than 25 years. First was after my divorce. I quit going to church and felt very little guilt about not keeping the Sabbath.
Another way was the way I raised my son, which is definitely non-SDA. I did not tell him about EGW and I wanted him to enjoy the Sabbath, so I did not give him lots of "do nots" and tried to show him that the Sabbath can be enjoyable. I just realized within this past week, that was God's doing and not mine.
Then God got me into my 12 step program. I give this program credit for teaching me how much God loves me and every thing that happens to me is in His hands. In this program I learned to deal with my feelings and found that they are not facts. Just feelings and they are mine. What I do with them is what can help me or hurt me. When I tell God this is how I feel and say it is mine I am better able to receive his help with it.
He gave me a dislike for EGW because I wanted to hear only the Bible when I went to church and not her. At the time I did not know about her deceit.
But when I did go to church, I wanted only the Bible. I cannot put a time on when this happened.
It was over a period of time. As I think about it, it started happening when I was a "good" SDA.
When I decided to not rejoin the SDA church in February of this year I was angry at the conference leaders for deceiving the membership for so long. I wrote about it and gave it to God.
For a short time I grieved the fellowship I had found in the SDA church, but God filled that gap rather quickly with all of you here and then He pointed me to a church.
So I guess I went through a grieving process, but it has been a very short one and not very hurtful.
God was preparing me for this for a long, long time. I thank Him that the grieving process has not been a long and hurtful one. I would have a difficult time with it being so close to the death of my Mom.
Like Debbie above, I have learned it is very therapeutic to be able to discuss my feelings in a safe invironment. I did and do that in my 12 step program and now here.
One thing I am glad God has taught me is that my feelings are not facts. They are only feelings and are mine. They are neither good or bad, right or wrong. How I respond to them is what can help me or hurt me.
God has had his hands on me for a long time and I am just realizing it now. He was preparing me for this all this time. He deserves all the Glory. Praise God, Hallelujah.
We do have an AWESOME GOD.
Diana
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 678
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 8:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sharon, I don't know much about what EGW says about education but I have heard somewhere that she advocated children should stay home with their mama's until at least age 10. This is probably the best advice that anyone could ever give anyone as far as child rearing goes, assuming the mama is a good and dedicated mama, not strung out on dope or anything like that. I am a big fan of home schooling. At the same time I'd just as soon see the government with tax money get out of the schooling business. I think though EGW left her own children in the care of nannys while she traveled to Australia and other places.
Sharon2
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Username: Sharon2

Post Number: 45
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 9:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, as I look at Adventism from the perspective of being removed from it for more than 10 years, I do see the cultish elements, but not all Adventist are really believers in those doctrines. Actually when you grow up in the shadow of the GC, you are more aware of the political and ungodly business of the organization. To many in high positions, the doctrines are only important as they relate to securing positions in the church and bringing in money. The headquarters area of the church is really very liberal and does not strongly embrace EGW. So for those people it is not like a cult, but when I lived around Fletcher, North Carolina--that is cult territory. A lot of abusive things take place in the name of the church. And I think that Adventist society breeds abusiveness in families. I've had to forgive a lot of people for a lot of abuses, but I never felt like I had lost anything by leaving Adventism. I have never missed the fellowship because when you are an employee of the church, you have a professional relationship with the people and you never let the people get too far into your personal life. That could be job threatening because you can not be all things to all people. Some want liberal teachers and some want conservative teachers; each person has their own idea of what you are supposed to be. Actually, now that my income is not effected by their opinions, I am more free with my relationships with the local Adventists. No one has broken relationships with us because we made this change. Thinking of our friends from SDA college and academy, at least half of them left the church years ago. It made no difference in our relationships. When we left Adventism, we moved into such a warm and caring environment that it was not a loss experience. We were amazed at the level of caring and transparent interaction that we received from our new congregation. Yes, over the years the Lord had to remove the unique SDA doctrines from our minds, but there was never an experience of losing friends or family. As a matter of fact a number of Adventist who see us fairly regularly are amazed at what the Lord has done in our lives. One family comes to our services from time to time when they want a break from the Adventists. So I think my experience has been different from most of yours.
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 391
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2004 - 12:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sharon, there's no doubt that God has done amazing and wonderful things in your life and that of your husband, and that He placed you in your congregation. I'll just venture to make one observation, however; I suspect that some of the Adventists with whom you continue to associate feel free to do so without putting up their guard, so to speak, because they know you still worship on Saturday. I understand that you do not see that Sabbath worship the way they do, but to them, you are still OK because you have not accepted the "Mark of the Beast".

I agree with you, also, about the Adventism at headquarter areas (think Washington DC, Loma Linda, some college campuses, etc.) being much more liberal, disillusioned, and less rigid than Adventism "out in the field". And yes, people in those areas also seem to be much more aware of the dishonesty and deceit practiced by the church. Yet I believe that the very fact that that the people in these areas know what they know but continue to be Adventist, protecting and rationalizing their Adventist incomes and/or identities, and continuing to use the Sabbath as an excuse to stay, still belies its cultic nature.

The fact that people can know it is corrupt, can know that its traditions and teachings are either fabricated or heretical, and continue to stay in the church suggests that something other than logic and integrity is controlling them.

I also agree wtih you that Adventism promotes abuses within families. I have seen 'way more evidence of that than I wish were so, and I agree that such abuses often become more visible in the conservative, demanding, cultic communities away from the centers of learning, etc.

This phenomenon brings me back to what I've often said: Adventism, if it's truly to be considered as a belief system to be taken seriously, either draws one inexorably farther into cultic, behavior and ultimately into mental illness, or it starst to spin people farther and farther to the fringes, where people abandon even their faith in a God--after all, if Adventism isn't true, then God probably isn't, either. Either Adventism draws one into a spiral leading ultimately to mental illness, or it jettisons one into agnosticism and unbelief. Some, who miraculously discover that God IS real and that Jesus is for real, eventually go toward HIM, and ultimately they find themselves on a trajectory out of the church and into Christianity.

In short, the liberal, casual attitude found at the large SDA centers and educational communities is as much an evidence of SDA-ism's cultishness as is the conservatism found other places. For people to stay when they know what they do illustrates that they are captive of the spirit of Adventism, too. The spirit of Adventist deception has a claim on the liberal SDA souls as surely as it does on the conservative ones; that's why they don't pack up and leave when they KNOW the truth!

It's much like Mormonism.

Colleen
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 227
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2004 - 7:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,
Again I thank you for your explanation. I have seen the abuse in my own family and know I understand better why it happened.
I thank God, that I got away from my family, long ago. Another light bulb. God was starting to get me away from adventism by getting me away from my family. WOW!!!
Each day I learn how awesome our God is.
Diana
Cindy
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Username: Cindy

Post Number: 604
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2004 - 9:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wonder whether Ellen White had a true spirit that came from God. Yes, acknowledging that Jesus has come in the flesh is one test, but is seems there are many more. Even Joseph Smith (prophet of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints!) acknowledged this.

It seems we have to test Ellen White in light of the total gospel message, Christ crucified and risen for us.
What did EGW teach as being necessary for salvation?

What did she say about relating to and, in fact, obeying her words?

And what about her claims of who she received her messages from?

I realize she wrote some grace-filled pages, but she ultimately preaches "another gospel", a gospel that denies the finality and sufficiency of Jesus!

Of course God has all things under His control! I also believe we can have a part in leading others to the true Rest. Sometimes by exposing error.

Jesus bids us rest in Him. To require keeping of the 7th Day as EGW does is a denial of Christ's finished work and rest for us. Along with her other doctrinal mixtures of the old versus new covenants, there comes a mesage of confusion.

Perhaps God "winked" at a lot of problematic messengers in the Old Testament but we are now called to a NEW way of living! In freedom and truth! It may be helpful to many to point out the error of EGW in order to show the glory of JESUS.

EGW claimed direct words from God ("I was shown...").

Was what she was shown from God? Was this true (a "halo" around the 4th Commandment, with keeping of the 7th day being the "dividing wall between true and false believers") or was it not?

Making this and other claims...and continuing the lies for many years without apology is a matter of spiritual abuse. Even, I feel, of spiritual warfare from the "father of lies."

And all those "Testimonies"! Do we believe that God needed EGW to be the "medium" to point out others' sins?

We believe in the priesthood of all believers to encourage each other to seek the Lord and His guidance. The HOLY SPIRIT along with sacred Scripture will then convict with clarity and compassion.

I respectfully submit these thoughts...
May Jesus reign in all our lives!

grace always,
cindy

Hoytster
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Username: Hoytster

Post Number: 100
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2004 - 10:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sharon2, Colleen, and Diana,

When I first learned of my son's mother's abuse of my son's sister, about 9 months ago, I asked in this forum whether Adventism promoted abuse. I believe the response I received is that there was nothing in the doctrine approving of abuse.

This was physical abuse, the then-four-year-old receiving a severe beating, being held in cold showers, receiving injuries by being thrown around.

You three all offered the view that SDA families. Susan2 wrote "...I think that Adventist society breeds abusiveness in families." Colleen and Diana witnessed to the same experience.

Can you please tell me what kind of abuse you have observed (without revealing the horrible details)? Can you tell me what about Adventism promotes abuse?

Given my understanding of SDAs, mostly as a result of this forum, I can imagine that there is a characteristic tendency toward secrecy ( "Don't tell the recruits what 'Spirit of Prophecy' means until they have signed up!" ). I can see that being a member of "the remnant church" could imbue an SDA with the conviction that her "truth" is more valid than "worldly" standards imposed by state laws about child abuse. There is the apparent preoccupation with appearences, e.g. the rules about make-up, jewelry, and dress; so that the appearence of a happy family at the Saturday potluck is more important than the reality of the abuse that takes place behind closed doors at home.

I'm still stunned by the story on this site, about the dad who was esteemed by his congregation because he brought his children to Sabbath School and sent them to the SDA school -- even though he raised the tuition money by selling illegal drugs (!!!!!).

That bizarre tendency to define "right" as conformance with Adventism could be understood a license to be abusive, if the SDA hierarchy is not vocal on the subject.
This is all guesswork, though, from a never-insider (I was never an SDA).

I would appreciate hearing what kind of abuse you all have observed, and your explanation of how it is promoted by Adventism.

Thanks in advance, Hoytster
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 686
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2004 - 11:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Hoyster, Oh, how I will pray that your little girl is in good care! I can only figure it this way-because SDA's are The Truth they as individuals either externally from SDA peers or internally from their own lack of self-esteem put a lot of burdon on themselves to appear that all is well. There is an underlying fear of "the world". A families dirty wash will stay in the family. Although they acknowledge all have sinned and have come short of the glory of God the teaching that one must achieve perfection to gain real favor with God is ever present in the back of an SDA's mind. So, as a result there is an internal self-imposed pressure on individual SDA's to have the appearance that all is well within the family unit. The Lutheran church I attend opens its facility several times per week for the A.A. groups to meet there. The local Methodist church does likewise, having A.A. and N.A. meetings at their church during the week. The SDA church teaches it is wrong to drink alcohol so of course the church would never acknowledge there could possibly be a problem of this nature within its ranks. Everyone really knows there are individual SDA's who may need the support of groups such as A.A. or N.A. but the need will go undeltwith. I can't speek about child abuse within the SDA denomiation as such. I do think emotional abuse is great. I have a story I will not put on the Internet because it is very private but I think it would illistrate this very much. To the honesty and goodness though of SDA teachers and SDA's in a position of dealing with the children I do believe SDA's as a rule when they hear of one in their schools, camps, etc. who abuses a child I do believe the person is turned in to the civil authorities and not shuffled around like the pediphile priests were. When people are expeced to meet the standard set by the organization to be perfect then it just lends itself to secrecy. Am I making any sense at all? I will give an example of what I am talking about. I have numerous former super-spun JW in-laws. One cannot smoke and be JW. JW's who are disfellowshipped are shunned by other JW's including immediate family. My former JW in-law neice wanted to marry a particular man. She convinced him to become JW so her mother, grandmother and other kin woudn't disown her for marrying out of the truth. This man is well into his 30's and he sneeks cigeretts. It's a cloud of secrecy that comes over the people who are not at liberty to let their special others know they suffer from certain faults. I hope this makes sense. I especially hope your little girl will be o.k.
Esther
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Username: Esther

Post Number: 24
Registered: 5-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 6:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hoyster,
Where I attended academy, over half the girls in the dorm had been either physically, emotionally, or sexually abused. In fact, when I really consider it, it may have been closer to 80%. Now, to be fair statistically, though 95% of us came from SDA homes, there were only two girls who didn't come from broken homes. The state we were in was very conservative SDA, with people very near fanatisism. There are groups all over the state who adhere to strict EGW lifestyles. They don't use healthcare, or microwaves, won't touch a person who eats meat or dairy, but devours sugar, they spend hours memorizing passages of EGW, ...but don't know even the books of the Bible, etc. And this is in the midwest.

In my experience, I've seen alot of pain in Adventism. People are so busy trying to look perfect. That leads them to not be able to share their struggles with each other as Christians should do for encouragement and help. In fact, they are so focused on looking good, that tearing each other down or gossiping about others flaws makes them feel better about themselves. I think this leads to alot of anger. Internal tormet. I know the uncertainties and hunger for Christ I experienced before coming out. I'm a pastors kid, and so was "privileged" to pick up on alot of the pain going on in the families of the churches that my parents had. When people don't truly know God, they are unstable, or in the least unloving.

Now I know that there are so many good devout SDA's...that truly practice Christianity, but I do see so many trying desperately to cope with life in general...lashing out in anger or fear from their uncertainties.

I also happen to know of several teachers/pastors in the denomination who were pedophiles that rather than addressing the issues, the persons were just shuffled around to hide the truth. In fact, the church of my teens had a pedophile member, that everyone knew was, and he'd go to campmeeting and hang out with everyones kids. Made me sick! But, he could quote EGW, gave her books to all the kids for gifts, and kept the sabbath, so...what a moral chap. (gag) There's also a HUGE problem in SDA communities with children abusing other children. The church school here is always covering up stories. I work with several of the parents, so I hear them anyway...and even as an SDA my husband and I knew our kids would never go there! It's not as big as the Catholic Priests, but it still happens.

I too, hope your daughter is ok, thank goodness she has a father that loves her :-)
Debbie
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Username: Debbie

Post Number: 78
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 7:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As many people as I know personally w/i (or who were w/i at one time) the SDA ranks who've been affected by sexual molestation/deviation, I would venture to say that it IS as at least as big as in the Catholic Church--only much more covert. Again, however, as Susan_2 has mentioned, due to the extreme privacy of it, I cannot get into the details. However, let me just say again that I know thse people personally, have heard their stories, and have been involved in their lives first-hand.

Debbie
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 232
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 8:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can identify with each of you about the sexual abuse, lying, and cover ups. Thank God, it did not happen to me.
Diana
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 401
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 11:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was interested in Esther's comment that about 80% of the girls in her dorm had been abused. I didn't go to a boarding academy but to a day school (SDA, of course), but I've often thought, in looking back, that I had only one good friend who, I think, was not partiuclarly abused. My friends came from non-divorced families, yet I'm thinking of one in which one sibling was the father's child but not the mother's, another family in which the mom lived upstairs and the dad downstairs, etc.

My own extended family most definitely has/had abuse in it. Abuse can be physical (severe spankings amounting to beatings), cruel and unusual punishments, neglect, spiritual abuse, emotional and physical incest--I've seen it all either in my own family, students, or friends.

I've told Richard several times that as I think back over the girls I knew in school, including those near me in my college dorms, I believe that nearly all of them had been victims of some sort of abuse in their famlies. I can't tell you what for sure, because we never spoke of it, but in retrospect I recognize a lot of the symptoms.

I have a couple of theories about why I believe abuse is so prevalent, although VERY covert, in SDA families. First, as Esther said, people who do not know Jesus really have no temporing influence on their own unresolved "stuff", and they only know to relate to their own kids in ways shaped by the ways they were treated.

Second, Adventism is rigid. Ellen wrote a lot about meat, eggs, and animal products stimulating the "animal passions", and she wrote a lot of twisted stuff about wives not allowing their husbands to see them naked, etc. True-blue Adventists believe that they must control their diets to curb their passions, and when such rigidity fails, they feel deep shame, etc. Somehow their own inability to control their desires by aestic living causes them to "come out the seams" in inappropriate ways.

Further, Adventism offers a great way, via the "health message" and the rigid diet, to purge oneself from physical sins. It's sort of an "I'll atone for my sins by eating plain, un-fun food and eliminating all passion-arousing things."

Now understand, Hoytster, none of this is ever spoken aloud. These are my interpretations of the way I've observed things to be. I may not be completely right in my assessment, but I've seen enough to believe that at some pre-conscious level, the vegetarian/vegan diet is somehow related to feelings of self-purging and righteousness, as if they can control this one area of physical desire even though they can't control them all.

Further, I'm beginning to believe that abuse is part of the spiritual bondage of Adventism. The spiritual abuse is fairly obvious; the prophet with "messages from God" which clearly teach lies about God and create false guilt. But the sexual misconduct--I believe it's part of James and Ellen White's legacy. I'll never forget Dale Ratzlaff talking to Richard and me before we had left SDAism but were studying deeply. He was nearly done with his research for Cultic Doctrine, and he said one of the factoids he had turned up in his studying was that in the beginning, James travelled with Ellen to speaking engagements before they were married. Her visions were useful to him; he could use them to confirm his teaching. Finally, Ellen's mother told her they had better get married because this jaunting about with James didn't look good.

James had originally said he would never marry Ellen; he was quite derogatory about her, but I guess her visions and the fact that he could direct them if necessary was just too useful to him, and he married her.

Also there is the public record of the Israel Dammon (Damon?) trial. It's available on the internet. It was a "meeting" attended by James and Ellen, and the neighbors reported it because they were disturbing the peace. At the resulting trial, details emerged including the fact that James was retiring to the bedroom with girls other than Ellen, and she herself was lying prostrate on the floor while others present called her the Imitation of Christ. (You can do a Google search and find these records yourself.)

At any rate, I believe that part of the spirit of Adventism, which is a spirit of deceit, includes the deceit of hidden sexual sin. In fact, I suspect that some of Ellen's "counsels" on sexual issues were perhaps the fallout of her own life; perhaps her own life with her parents had been abusive in some way. At any rate, there is a history of deception from the Whites on down, and definitely a history of sexual misconduct or at least the appearance of evil.

I believe there are probably many reasons why abuse hides well inside Adventism--and believe me, I am all too aware that abuse is NOT limited to Adventism!--but certainly the "pure" lifestyle of Adventism does nothing to correct these problems.

All I can say is this: I praise God for calling me out of that darkness and for redeeming everything in my life. He wastes nothing, and He redeems everything we submit to Him. I'm all too aware that when we are trangressed against, we are wounded and shaped in ways that cause us to transgress--often in different ways, but in ways that stem from our own wounds. But praise God--our own wounds are not the end of the story! Jesus redeems not just our futures; He redeems our lives now!

Colleen
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 237
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 6:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I do not remember what EGW says, but whenever we were in trouble, my Mom would tell us not to tell anyone but God. I have since learned that a sick person is one who keeps secrets. My Mom had a lot of secrets and looking back on it, I know that is why she acted as she did. My Dad also.
I agree with every thing Colleen has said above. Adventism hides lots of sins.
But I am so thankful I was called out and I like the way Colleen put it, "our own wounds are not the end of the story! Jesus redeems not just our futures; He redeems our lives now!" AMEN and AMEN.
Diana
Sabra
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Username: Sabra

Post Number: 134
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 5:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, lots of memories. I was never abused physically, but went to school with a girl that was sleeping with one of the teachers for grades. She didn't tell anyone until after she had left the school and then they just fired him, no court or anything for the poor girl.

She went on to marry and divorce twice and is really messed up, last I heard.

I attended a dorm 11th and 12th grade and almost no one in the dorm was a virgin. Kids snuck out all the time to the church-of all things- to have sex and one group got caught in the gym in the middle of the night playing basketball naked and taking polaroids.

Another girl was obviously pregnant and wore a coat all spring long until graduation when she walked down the isle quite pregnant and no one said a word.

Lots of teachers were big flirts and there was an awful lot going on. Drugs etc. I can't remember a single kid in that school that was on fire for Jesus. Or a teacher for that matter. We had rules but no maternal connection or care, we grew up fast. In my opinion, sending your kids away to school is abuse, unless there is some problem with behavior or something.

Once my roomate and I were deathly ill with 104+ fevers for over a week and they never even took us to the Dr! We crawled to the bathroom because we were too weak to walk, lost weight, Ridiculous.

I was so surprised that my church was so real. They have a class for addicts and divorced people and people go forward for prayer for anything and the Pastor's wife even shared with the women's class the terrible time she had with her daughter growing up and the pastor even preached on how she smoked and he wouldn't let her live in the house unless she quit. He said a deacon pulled him aside and told him to put an ashtray on the porch and tell her to come home, that she was loved and accepted the way she is.

He did and said she quit. Purpose of that sermon was to accept everyone, no matter what, where they are and love them.

That is what that church is about. You can be transparent and loved. It's so awesome!

Hoyster,
there are other types of abuse. I was excluded from my entire family because I was so different. I only had one aunt and cousin that were semi SDA that I was around and my uncle in that family was abusing my cousin. Yeah, screwed up!

I had to tell my grandparents at age 5 that I was SDA and couldn't eat any eggs or meat or cheese or milk at their house, before I could go with them. As far as I remember, that was the last time they ever took me. My dad took me a few times. He made comments like, "your mother shouldn't have put you in a religion like that without you being able to decide for yourself.

Then there is the weird stuff: drinking hot water, eating veggie meat,

Oh, I'm sure my mom meant well and she was so depressed my whole life.

I pray that your kids are doing well, let them know they are special and accepted and loved. I know you do. May the Lord guide you with their little lives.

Sabra
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 408
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 6:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sabra, I've come to agree with you that sending your kids away to school--unless there is some severe behavioral issue--is abusive. After teaching for five years in a boarding academy (and I was an Adventist then), I knew I'd never send my kids to one.

Perhaps one saving grace of boarding academies is that they did provide a haven for some kids whose families were so dysfunctional or just plain abusive that the kids were better off away.

Oh, yeah--"then there is the weird stuff..."

Colleen
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 243
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 6:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When I was nominally SDA, I talked to some SDA friends about boarding academy. We agreed that our teenagers need us even more in their teens. At the boarding schools they do not always turn to their dorm parents for advice, but turn to their friends, who are inexperienced in life. So they did not send their kids to SDA boarding academies. It is important, to me, that the parents are there for kids to talk to or for the parents to start the conversation and talk to them about whatever needs to be said. I do not like the boarding academies. I went to day academy.
Diana
Hallanvaara
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Username: Hallanvaara

Post Number: 55
Registered: 1-2004
Posted on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 12:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sharon, judgeing false and un-biblical teachings doesnĄt mean that you tear down some ones faith. As christian you HAVE TO condemn those kind of teachings.

I donĄt judge EGWĄs person, just her teachings and claims. She has misled the whole congregation.

If a prophet or GodĄs messenger contradicts Bible, contradicts even herself, prophesies dates for Jesus come backs, gives weird instructions to people about health, living, education, wrote books and "loaned" most of material from other authors....
There are so many examples that itĄs obvious those things werenĄt from God.
Yes, she wrote some wonderful writings but most of them are proved to be someones elses writings, not EGWĄs (like Steps to Christ).

I translated few days ago one article. It was about a letter EGW wrote to his son Willie in 1881. In that letter EGW tells about her dream where her dead husband James gave her instructions. Ellen knew James was dead and buried but still she demanded James to stay with her for now on so they could continue working together. Ellen claimed that God sent a message to her through dead James and she obeyed that what James said!
And what says Bible about people consulting dead? ItĄs clear. To me a person who consults deads is DEFINITELY not guided by God.

I find it disgusting that people claim to be so blessed by reading EGW and other hand they close their eyes for those sickening things she does and says. But maybe they doesnĄt know about this other side? So is it possible that God is using your mouth to reveal this and they can value again their readings?

I definitely donĄt value any of EGWĄs book and think itĄs just disguised heresy. By using something good she can feed people more and more false teachings and drag them farther away from Christ. Who uses this kind of technics?

Sola Scriptura, Bible only. Who nees this kind of "blessed" litterature when we have Bible?

Tuija

Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd

Post Number: 16
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 5:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hallanvaara,
This is the first time I have ever heard of her dead husband "talking" to her. REALLY? Was this letter the only time? How long had James been dead? (I know, I should remember! I'm sure I had to know for a test somewhere in time!)

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