| Author | Message | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 395 Registered: 7-2003 |
I guess what I don't understand is how eternal punishment is supposed to be some feared or dreaded state if it means we won't exist any more? I've suffered from depression in the past and I promise, ceasing to exist from all the world would have been a welcome thought. One of the reasons I could never completely contemplate suicide was part of my fear of hell ... I've not battled those thoughts for years now, and I don't fear I'm going to commit any sin that is so big that God will reject me for it, but I find my commitment and resolve to share Christ with others is not merely so they'll have a glorious eternity with Christ, but because of my burden they might experience a real eternity in hell. It seems to me if one makes hell temporary or a non-existent state .. a, there is no eternal punishment because the punishment ends when the person being punished did, b, there would be nothing to fear about not accepting Christ. It's a safe gamble that if you're wrong about Christ being savior, the worst you can get is to cease. Where's the big deal with that? B always says making people believe in an eternal hell is just scaring people to accept Christ...yet that's what they do with the day one worships...you can accept Christ, but God will reject you if you're worshipping on the wrong day? One fear tactic keeps people SDAs and that's okay, but a legitimate fear of eternal punishment is not??? I've studied it quite a bit because B thinks that is the most critical doctrine. But as someone said above Jesus says it is being cast into outer darkness and the weeping and gnashing of teeth is eternal. The second death is being tossed into the lake, not ceasing to exist. No where do I read the lake ceases to exist. But to minimize hell, even if we can't fully comprehend, in my mind is a tool of Satan. I don't have a problem with a healthy fear of God. It is our need for a savior that drives us to the cross. If I don't need to be saved from hell, what do I need to be saved from? It just doesn't compute. Doug, I have never read or heard anything in this thread that sounds disrespectful. Disagreement does not equal discord. Iron sharpens iron and we learn from each other by differences of perspective and knowledge. But the final authority has to be God and his word. I think most of us on here are really trying to seek that. We're all at different places and whether we like to admit it or not are strongly influenced by what we have been initially taught is right. B is such a prime example...his perspective is to prove adventism wrong, Mine is prove it right. His default belief is they are correct as my default belief is that what I've been taught is truth is right. Getting over the hurdle of our default teaching is hard in any circumstance. It's a pride thing. I've yet to be persuaded the second death is a ceasing to exist, but I always want to check my Bible for anything I've missed. We're still friends and one day, well all laugh at some aspect of our own error. | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 200 Registered: 5-2002 |
My experience has been that formers are very gracious and respectful, even when in disagreement. I think it has alot to do with going from "knowing it all" to realizing that we really didn't know nearly as much about anything as we thought we did. Hard to be arrogant and argumentative when you've been humbled like that. Opens up your mind, so to speak... This forum is a perpetual pleasure. | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 1 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hi, I just want to say that I am showing up as a first time poster because I am changing my screen-name. I just want to be anonymous at this time. I hope everyone understands. I have only posted a few times. Every time I post, I feel the judgemental eyes of the SDA's who are reading my notes. Anyway, I wanted to comment on Melissa's post. Regarding eternal hell or eternal non-existence, I somehow cannot fathom eternal non-existence. I almost get sick to my stomach thinking about never "being" again. I know it sounds stupid, but by being at least conscious, I must think that God will have mercy on me at some point. I know it is crazy, but I have always hated the eternal "nothing" over the eternal hell. Am I the only one who feels like this? I am also having a hard time in differentiating the SDA version of "being good" versus the born again version. I spent so much time worrying about all these external things and how I looked to the SDA's (still am, it looks like  But now when I am at my new church and they talk about not doing this or that, I start questioning if they are being legalistic or are they biblical? It makes for a confusing time! BB | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 438 Registered: 12-2003 |
Doug, you've sparked some really interesting discussion and thinking. Your freedom in Christ and your desire to honor Him is apparent. As Meslissa said above, some subjects really tweak us in deeply personal ways because of how they initially shaped us and because of how we've had to study to sift truth from error--and also because we are learning to be content with open-endedness about some of them! I am so thankful to God for everyone here, and for the fact that He has brought us together to strengthen and sharpen each other as we stand on the common ground of His grace and salvation! Colleen | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 361 Registered: 1-2003 |
If this is all about me and if I have offended you Doug, I appologize. I freely admit I know nothing...and I wasn't offended in the least with the soul/spirit thing. Please forgive if I offended you. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 439 Registered: 12-2003 |
Bb, you are asking really good questions. I've struggled with them, also. When we first started atending our church, Richad and I got to SO uptight when we heard people talking about "obedience"! Here's how I'm understanding the difference beween being born again and being good. Being born again literally means that we have surrendered not just our heads (assented to the belief in Jesus--which even the devil does!) but our hearts and the claim over our own lives to Him. When we do that, when we own our deep, irreparable brokenness and realize we need a Savior, when we accept Jesus' death and resurrection as our justification, we are at that moment sealed by the Holy Spirit. (Ephesians 1:13) It's the Holy Spirit part of the equation that Adventists don't understand. We DO have spirits, contrary to SDA belief! They say our spirit is our literal breath; the Bible says the Spirit witnesses to our spirit that we are sons of God. When we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, He brings our previously separated, dead spirits to life, and we are quite literally connected to God. In the spiritual realm, it is obvious that we are new creatures. Instead of being dead, as all natural people are who have not accepted Jesus, we are living, and the seal of the Holy Spirit, I believe, is "visible" to all spiritual beings including the devil. We now belong to God; we are no longer dead in our sins. Many Christians don't understand the power and the position in Christ that this new birth affords them. What this means in terms of "being good" is that, now that the Holy Spirit is literally living in us, He IS the law written on our hearts. The God of the Universe has put His eternal law and power and love--Himself--inside us in our still-mortal bodies. Amazing! Now, instead of recognizing our sins and disciplining oursleves to overcome them--which is the "being good" Adventists talk of--we acknowledge our sins and our helplessness to stay away from temptation and indulgence, and we look to Jesus, surrendering our helplessness to Him. Now, instead of pleading with God for deliverance and working to subdue our temptations, we respond to the Holy Spirit. We acknowledge our helplessness and desire to Him. We now surrender our right to that desire to Him, and we surrender to Him our failure to be good. We offer Him our complete shame and failure, and ask Him to place His power and peace in the places in our heart where that sin and temptation keep coming from. We ask Jesus to have His way with us. Now, after surrendering the problem and giving up our desire to control it to God, we are free to respond directly to the Holy Spirit instead of responding to our temptation. We've given our sin and temptation to Him to do with as He wishes. Now, when we are faced with a temptation to anger or greed or defensivieness or lust, we literally pasue an pray, "Please keep me faithful; keep me in reality; please help me to honor you; please give me Your courage to say NO to sin (or to make the Godly choice in a dilemma)." Now, being good is not interacting with your own temptation in your own head. Instead, it's giving up your control and your right to those temptations and instead relating to the Person of the Holy Spirit at the very moment of temptation. Instead of the focus being whether or not behavior is a sin, your focus now is, "God, what will honor You at this very moment?" Instead of fighting sin and sinful flesh, we relate to Jesus through the Holy Spirit. We allow Him to empower us with His power and courage and love, and we do what is truthful and honoring to God--one decision at a time. Obedience now is not obedience to a law or a standard of behavior of some sort. Rather, obedience is to Jesus through our intimate communication with the Holy Spirit in our spirit. I hope this makes sense! I'm really quite amazed as I realize more and more the complete paradigm shift living by the Spirit is over living according to a standard of behavior. People who are not born again cannot live this way. They have no choice but to fight with their urges and behaviors. They have no internal Presence of God to teach and reprimand and convict and empower them. Anyone who has surrendered to Jesus has this Power available for them. We just have to start choosing to live by It instead of by our own wits and wills. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 269 Registered: 3-2004 |
Colleen, That is a BIG "whoa" moment for me. It really hit home when you wrote "Being good is not interacting with your own temptation in your own head. Instead, it's giving up your control and your right to those temptations and instead relating to the Person of the Holy Spirit at the very moment of temptation.....your focus now is, God, what will honor You at this very moment". That is something with which I have been struggling and God has been teaching me as I can receive it. Thank you so much. Our God is truly awesome. Diana | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 33 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thank you, Colleen! I have never heard or read such a beautiful description of living by the power of the Holy Spirit. Is there anyway I can print your thoughts? When Richard or you "archive" can you leave the above entry so that I can print it without printing the page? That would be great. Question -- Where does the SDA belief come from that the Holy Spirit is our literal breath? Bible? If so, do you know from where? EGW? | ||
| Doug_s Registered user Username: Doug_s Post Number: 22 Registered: 7-2004 |
Well it's good to know that there's been no offense taken here. No seeds of discord. It must have been a false alarm on my early warning offense radar. I just had this funny feeling I may have interjected something here that didn't belong, steering the subject off in another direction from where the initial thread was going, from freedom in Christ to state of the dead. Pheeki, I'm not offended by anything you have said. I appreciate your kind words. I'm not offended by anything anyone says here. Trust me, considering the people I work with every day there's not much anyone can say here that will be worse. I'm just fine and dandy, except for probably not getting enough sleep. Which leads me to Dd's burning question. It's true I do get up pretty early for work, 4:00am today but usually 4:30am. I think the time posted here on the forum though is west coast time and I'm on the east coast. Late to bed, early to rise, sure does make for some red, sore eyes. Thanks Dd for your words of encouragement. And stand by for more "whoa moments". I look forward to hearing about yours and everyone else's too. Doug | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 7 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear Colleen, Thank you, dear lady, for phrasing the working of the Holy Spirit so well. I remember the day I tried to explain the difference between "being good" and "being in Christ" to my two kids. They spend a couple of early years in SDA schools, but that was enough time to have gotten the drift about "being good." I knew I had to dissuade them of that view, but I realized I had to carefully avoid listing a bunch of "dos and don'ts." I told them both that once you have surrendered your life, in faith, to Jesus your life is more than asking "What would Jesus do?" it's "Jesus, please do through me." It was frightening to me to leave them with the "simple faith, and live in love" explanation. Jesus left the early church with that explanation, and probably would have preferred it to be left at that, but at the Counsil of Jerusalem Peter and friends added the information about, no blood, no food offered to idols, and no sexual sin. You see, we humans seem to need lists of dos and don'ts. We really are left with what Colleen has said. It is so easy that it seems hard because we have to live in the Spirit moment by moment when we live that way. Even after we have been saved we have our "me do it" moments. (By the way, that is what my kids told me when they were very small and thought they didn't want any help from me.) I'm grateful that our Savior sees us as small children and has patience with our "me do it" moments. God bless you all. I have learned so much from all of you. By the way, from what I've read so far, there has been no offense, and no need for apology. Belva | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 2 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear Colleen, I just got home and read your reply. I can only say that as I read it I was filled with a new sense of freedom! Not freedom to sin, but freedom to give it up to God! I know we have all heard that before, but it reached me in a new way tonight! Thank you so much for your insight. I also, like Dd, want to be able to print it. It even made me want a little trial so that I could put it into practice. Not that I don't have enough trials each day! I just love the idea of not trying to struggle with the temptation itself and just asking God if it would honor Him. Just think what the world would be like if we all lived like that! Thank you so much. I treasure you. You are helping former Adventists to know that there is a way besides just "giving up" on it all. Bb | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 625 Registered: 7-2000 |
Much of the problem with the SDA's is that they are always trying to do something to become righteous. But the Christian already IS righteous because we are clothed in Christ's righteousness. Our life is spent finding out what that means. It means that we are no longer held by the power of anything....so we are now truly free to choose to allow Christ to lead us instead. AH HA! we've had the heart transplant but it takes time to affect the health of our whole body. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 271 Registered: 3-2004 |
Lydell, I like the way you expressed our freedom to choose to allow Christ to lead us.."we've had the heart transplant but it takes time to affect the health of the whole body". God is really AWESOME. Diana | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 726 Registered: 11-2002 |
This thread is titled ,So have you...". So, now that you are out of SDA confinment have you begun taking lessons/classes from the Jesuits in persucating and tourching Commantment keepers? Have you now that you no longer have total belief in the SDA view of the state of the dead are you conducting seanunces so you can bring back the spirits of your dearly departed? Now that you no longer believe alcohol is an exceptionally abhorrant sin have you become a menace to society with your presumed drunken driving? Since you may no longer read every lable to check for a dollip of lard has your health deterioated to the point of loosing that extra six years that SDA's have because of their lard avoidence? Since you no longer believe dancing is only for sluts and whores if you go out with your man and do the hussle, maccareena or two step do you trun into a slut and whore? Since you now can have pepper on your food and mustard on your burger have your animal passions made you go mad? Hey, I haven't even gotten to the bowling alley yet? BTW, my dad told me when he was a kid EGW said not to ride bicycles. This would have been around 1910. He thought that was dumb and got himself a bicycle anyway. He says he then asked the minister what was wrong with bicycles and the minister told him when Mrs. White makes those pronouncements thet are not to be taken literally but that what Ms. White really means is not to have idols and not to follow fads, to use good, old-fashioned common sense. Nontheless, she said bicycles. Don't prophets say what they mean and mean what they say? | ||
| Madelia Registered user Username: Madelia Post Number: 60 Registered: 2-2003 |
What's "wrong" with mustard? | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 3 Registered: 7-2004 |
Oh boy, my sister had a correspondence with a well known adventist editor a year or so ago. She and I were studying all of these EGW allegations. She confronted him with her plagerism, her need to give testimonies to innocent God-fearing men and women. His answer was basically that she had a flawed view of EGW and was probably suffering from some kind of fear and guilt that she picked up as a child. (Duh) But he talked down to her, and basically said that in his mind it was perfectly acceptable for EGW to "borrow all over the place" and not always be correct when she said "God told her". I think his responses were what made her really get out of that church! What reminded me of this, Susan, is that she brought up the fact that EGW said that laughter was a sin! In a testimony to a "sister" she went on about her frivolity and gaity. She said "Christ was known to have wept, but never to laugh". Isn't that absurd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No wonder we were all walking around fearful of even enjoying life!! That bicylce thing was explained to me by my former SDA pastor as EGW condemning spending huge amounts of money on a pleasure thing because when bicycles came out they were expensive. What about tennis? She condemned that and picnics too. And about wedding bands, it was a matter of money too. She said "not one penny should be spent on the circle of gold" or something like that. I never accepted that jewelry was wrong. There is nothing in the Bible that says it is. Anyway, it just irritates me to even think about her endless "testimonies". After reading what Kellogg and A.T. Jones wrote to her (Pioneer letters) I thought they were completely blacklisted from the church without a chance to even explain their side! | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 398 Registered: 7-2003 |
A couple asked about printing...I print things from these conversations all the time. I highlight the post(s) that I want, copy and then paste it into word or a text editor and print from there. Susan, SDAs don't believe the Bible means what it says or says what it means. So, why would they think their prophets did? Just a thought.... | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 444 Registered: 12-2003 |
Madelia, mustard is a stimulant/irritant, and we KNOW what those do to the animal passions! Richard said he grew up with no ketchup (also blacklisted because of its vinegar content--another stimulant/irritant), and when he got to academy where they served it in the cafeteria, he just couldn't get enough of it! It's kind of funny, really--Some kids from restrictive, poorly managed homes go crazy with alcohol or drugs when they leave home, but the guilt-ridden Adventist kid binges on ketchup!! Colleen | ||
| Madelia Registered user Username: Madelia Post Number: 61 Registered: 2-2003 |
I'll never forget last summer when my husband invited some adventist friends for lunch. I made a pasta salad which called for rice wine vinegar. Just that mean streak in me. They all raved about how good it was! And a comment about laughter. Last night we were talking about Noah and his sons. I just made some joking comment about Shem, Ham and Beef. The kids thought it was funny, but of course I got a lecture about being blasphemous!! Good Grief!! Thanks Colleen, for clearing up my confusion about mustard | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 4 Registered: 7-2004 |
But all this picking and choosing about what EGW stuff to adhere to and what to ignore! I admit I used to be a "liberal" adventist. I was going to show the world that adventists could be normal too. So I wore make-up and did some of the no-no's. But now, when I see adventists doing that I think "hey, you aren't going by what your prophet told you to do!" I almost have more respect for the historic conservative ones. At least they are following everything they think they have to do. How can you pick apart all of her writings and live in this day and age? And about laughter, also. My parents have always enjoyed fun and joking around. But my mother has to always catch herself if she finds herself getting too "foolish", as she believes that she won't be saved if she is like that. I think she got that from a verse in the Bible. But EGW just went too far to say we should never laugh. |
