| Author |
Message |
Doug_s
Registered user
Username: Doug_s
Post Number: 40
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 10:39 am: |     |
Colleen,
What do you think about the David Dennis incident? Is that part of the Folkenberg matter? I see where RF is making a comeback into a more public SDA arena.
Doug |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 475
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 11:10 am: | |
Doug, David Dennis wasn't part of the Folkenberg matter. His disgrace happened several years before. I've talked to him several times, however, and I have to say that I can't make definitive statements about the details of his case because I just don't know the facts. What I do believe, however, is that Dennis most definitely found evidence of financial mismanagement. He showed the powers-that-be and insisted that the anomalies be corrected and the mismanagement stopped. He didn't just give a written report and keep quite; he talked to peole and attempted to get them to take measures to stop the illegal or conflict of interest activities. It became evident that no "fix" was coming, and one day--just before Christmas--he was fired immediately and with no warning.
I have respect for Dennis, and I believe the true reason for his firing was that he was dangerously close to exposing a cover-up of serious financial mismanagement at the GC that extended deeply into the administration. Of course, I cannot "prove" this belief, but I saw and heard enough evidence that I personally am convinced!
Folkenberg, interestingly enough, has been wheeling and dealing with power brokers including the person who ran Vicariatus Urbis, a charitable foundation for the pope, since as far back as Robert Pierson. Even after the laswuit that got him demoted, he was not fired. He was kept on the payroll and removed from the limelight. He has since been working for the church including mission work in Africa, etc. He's not getting much public attention, but I personally believe he has too many connections for the church to even consider firing him. He benefits, the church benefits--and besides, firing him might result in exposure of others' compromises.
I knew just enough to completely remove any vestiges of rose-colord glasses I might have had about the church, and just enough to make me quite suspicious of the way Folkenberg (and perhaps others at high levels) gets and keeps his power. The whole Folkenberg event opened up just enough to me that I firmly believe the administration (at the GC level at least) is not primarily sincere and ignorant of the church's problems. I really believe that anyone who desires congruency in their lives will not last at the GC.
BTW, I haven't seen the latest RF news. How is he making a comeback? Somehow I'm not surprised--he never really went away!
Colleentinker |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 315
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 11:27 am: | |
There is a web site about SDA members for financial accountability. It is called Members for church accountability.
I have read about Folkenberg and Dennis. I do not know enough about either. |
Doug_s
Registered user
Username: Doug_s
Post Number: 41
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 11:29 am: | |
Colleen,
I have read what I could find on the internet concerning David but obviously there's quite a bit I and others will never know. I don't really need to know all that happened and I think I have enough to make a reasonable conclusion. Thanks for affirming what I found out. I don't know David personally but it sounds like you do, I thought you might, so, that's why I asked.
What I meant about RF making a comeback really only means that I have seen his face on SDA publications more and more. Since we haven't officially requested removal of our names from the Adventist records, we still receive the usual publications that go out to members, Review and etc. I'll read a few pages, scan the letters to the editor and then use it as a fly swatter.
Thanks,
Doug |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 758
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 12:56 pm: | |
At the Lutheran church where I attend we have a congreation meeting at least once per year to discuss the money. And, I will say, generally Lutherans are possibly the most mild-mannerd folks around but, in these money meetings they can sure get heated up, if you know what I mean. It's like every single person in the congreation feels a need to know where every doller is spent and then whats the justification for spendig it. Sometimes the meetings run too late so a motion is made to continue he eetig the next week. |
Jerry
Registered user
Username: Jerry
Post Number: 425
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 6:14 pm: | |
Just to clarify some of the financial dealings at the local level. My wife is the treasurer for a local church and I see all financial transactions.
In at least this case there is a moderate amount of transparency about the financial actions of the church about local money. Not that many in the church pay attention. However, the information is fairly available to any member at a certain level.
Now, that says nothing about the money slated for the World, regional and low level conferences. This, of course, includes the "tithe" contributions plus things like "Evangelism", ADRA, Birthday Thanks (I have always been unconfortable with this category) and other "funds". Those represent a good 85 to 95 percent of all money contributions. Not much information is available about how these monies are spent.
Some of this money filters back to the lower level because the salaries and benifits for the pastors are from higher up (possibly from the tithes). Also, most of the land and buildings are owned by the conferences (I think).
I have seen some expenses covered by the upper conferences for such things as "prophecy seminars", but most day to day expenses of a local congregation must be provided out of the 5 to 15 percent left after the conference money is sent off.
The regional or lower conferences charge the local congregations for liability and damage insurance, and loan money for large local expenses such as a new sign or a new baptismal pool.
Of course, the local congregation has trouble making people understand that the "tithe" is not directly contributing to local expenses so there is always an education effort to get people to "add that extra percent"
. . . and "heaven forfend" that one should give only ten percent of one's gross income and allocate a portion of that for local expense. . .
That would be a cause for disfellowship.
I hope this information helps.
(keep in mind, this is only what I see at this one congregation.) |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 320
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 6:29 pm: | |
This brings to mind an incident, before my name was taken off the church books. It was Ingathering Time, remember it. We went door to door asking for donations for missionary work. When people quit doing that, each member was asked to donate a certain amount. The year I am talking about the amount was $25. I was newly divorced and did not have the money. The PREACHER'S WIFE, she was not the church treasurer, called me and asked me where my money was. I knew she was not the treasurer and that no one was supposed to know what anyone gave. So I told her it was none of her business as she was not the church treasurer and that she was not supposed to go snooping into things like that. She did not like my answer and tried to talk her way out of it. I would not let her do that so she hung up as I remember it. I then wrote to the conference and complained about her. I do not remember if I got a reply from them. She really got to me and I was not happy with her at all.
Thank God I do not have that burden any more. Every day I see more and more how God was pulling me away from the SDA church. I just got another "whoa" moment, but this incident did not help encourage me to be an SDA.
And every day I see more and more how awesome God is.
Diana
than |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 6
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 7:33 pm: | |
I guess being money hungry is related to a rant on food.
Earlier this year at the SDA we attended I heard the strangest offering appeal. The person told several stories of people who didn't tithe and had bad things happen to then and then concluded that it is up to you how you want to pay tithe. You can give it to God or He will take it from you. We had a lengthy discussion with our kids on the way home about just how wrong that message was, on so many levels. |
Madelia
Registered user
Username: Madelia
Post Number: 64
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 6:53 am: | |
What exactly did happen with Robert Folkenberg a few years ago? He was a speaker at the Minnesota camp meeting this summer (I didn't go, so I don't know what he spoke about, or what his position is) |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 327
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 7:55 am: | |
I apologize for all that empty space. I did not realize I had done that.
Diana |
Pheeki
Registered user
Username: Pheeki
Post Number: 375
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 9:27 am: | |
Well, my SDA brother had some land...he got transferred to another conference and put it up for sale...it hasn't sold and it has been two years. Anyway, he has owed my mother a lot of money for a long time and now she needs it...I did a bible study with her about how the New Covenant says we are to remember the widows and orphans and we are to give as the HS directs us...sometimes much more than 10% and not always to a church...sometimes a family, the person on the street, etc...still she was paying that 10% and couldn't afford to buy her medicine! So she stopped paying it...she was really scared but I kept encouraging her to pray and that it was ok.
So she tells my brother about it and he said, "Now I understand why that land hasn't sold. The Lord knows that I would pay you back your money and because you are unfaithful to Him, He is unable to bless you."
I was so angry...I couldn't help it! How dare he
tell her that as if we buy our Father's blessings! but that is the SDA mentality and it was mine too. I recently threw away a book all about tithe paying written by SDA's (personal testimonies) about how they paid their tithes in adversity and this and that happened. But I think God was honoring their faith in Him...it was an act of faith he honored...know what I mean? We don't buy God's favor.
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Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 765
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 9:39 am: | |
Haven't they heard yet that Martin Luther said to give up indulgences? O, I forget, they only refer to Martin Luther if it's to their advantage. |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 331
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 10:04 am: | |
I paid tithe before I decided to not rejoin the SDA church and now I know why he blessed me. He was honoring my faith in Him. This is a "whoa" moment. WOW!! It was not because I was being a good SDA. You are right Pheeki. We cannot buy God's favor.
Pheeki, I am so sorry for your brother blaming your Mom for his land not selling. It had nothing to do with her. It has to do with him and him alone. Tell your Mom I will pray for her and give her a hug for me.
God is truly awesome.
Diana |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 481
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 10:13 am: | |
Madelia, Folkenberg was sued by a man name James Moore who was a business partner with him. Moore runs (or at that time ran) Vicariatus Urbis, one of the pope's charitable foundations. Moore and Folkenberg were involved in land deals together and were splitting profits, etc. (This is a way oversimplification.) They were making money themselves, and they were giving percentages to their respective charities. Folkenberg's charities benefitted the SDAs, and Moore's benefitted the Catholics. At any rate, Folkenberg owed Moore a substantial sum of money on one of these deals. The time for repayment had passed, and Moore sued Folkenberg for the $$.
As the complicated nature and the deep and long-term involvement of Fokenberg with Moore and other questionable money-making schemes began to surface, the church had to do damage control. At first they felt distanced from the whole deal, saying it was Folkenberg's personal debt. Too many people, I believe, knew about the implications of this lawsuit for the church, and too many people at the GC level had either known about or assisted with bookkeeping or in some way participated with Folkenberg in his various skewed deals, and too many people knew how the church was truly tied into his schemes and benefitted from them, and ultimately the church paid his debt to Moore (who was a scary character). The church paid Folkenberg's debt with Risk Management funds, and they did it quietly without going through even the in-house channels necessary to appropriate Risk funds. They paid the debt without consulting the legal department of the GC, and there were LOTS of deeply upset people at the GC over the way the whole scandal was handled and hushed.
I left the story with 'way more questions than answers, but with a conviction that I didn't want to know any more. The more I learned, the scarier things looked (and I do mean scary).
Praise God that He is the revealer of secrets and the One Who metes out justice, and our job is to trust Him and allow Him to be God!
Colleen |
Madelia
Registered user
Username: Madelia
Post Number: 65
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 11:09 am: | |
Pretty interesting that Folkenberg was in cahoots with someone involved with the Catholic church.
Makes me think of 2 incidents with ministers I've heard about, where both were discovered to be in adulterous affairs. Both churches were very upfront with their congregations and both ministers lost their positions. No secrecy about it. What a contrast to the SDA way of handing these situations |
Cindy
Registered user
Username: Cindy
Post Number: 619
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 7:07 am: | |
Susan, your observation on Martin Luther and "indulgences" was great! So true. I'll have to remember that one!
And you're completely correct: Martin Luther is a great man to Adventists when he serves their interests! Almost like they believe, (as my son recently told me he felt he was taught in SDA mentality), Luther was one of the first Adventists! Just don't correlate "tithe-paying" with indulgences...or bring up Luther's views on Sabbath-keeping!
grace always,
cindy |
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking
Post Number: 269
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 7:06 am: | |
Robert Folkenberg now is running something called 'Evangelism Explosion'. It's a joint program with 'It Is Written' and it is worldwide. The idea is to provide oppurtunities for self supporting types of evangelism. Much like Maranatha and its' church building missions, you can sign up to go on a three week evangelism tour where you are the evangelist.
The Carolina conference is also involved in this as they provide most of the scripts, power point presentations and tech. support. The trips are all over the world---Romania, Poland, France, Latin America, etc.
Anyway, I guess R.F. now has access to money again and he can use his pilots license to fly all over the world. Pretty sweet deal for someone who should probably not be involved in denominational work......... |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 363
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 12:19 pm: | |
From what I have read about R.F. it sounds, to me, that he should not be out running around. Why he is, is something I will never understand.
I just have to trust God, that He will take care of it.
Diana |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 504
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 10:15 am: | |
Diana, your comment that RF sounds like someone who "should not be out running around" made me laugh! So true!
Interesting about the Evangelism Explosion, Loveviking. The Carolina Conference has been involved in a lot of RFs "work" over the years.
I just have to agree with Diana, "I just have to trust God, that He will take care of it."
Colleen |
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