| Author | Message | ||
| Jerry Registered user Username: Jerry Post Number: 424 Registered: 6-2002 |
Bear with me here. This will be a long, ěpreaching to the choirî, ěI just had to get it off my chestî kind of post. Ignore it, if you wish, or correct me if you want. Preface: I currently eat no meat. Not because I buy the Adventist ěclean/uncleanî argument, not because I anthopomorphize any animal or undervalue the life of plants. I do it to keep peace in my marriage and because I have no objection to the nutrition values in the diet. I just saw a small piece of ěAmazing Factsî on TV. It triggered a long standing complaint I have with the ěscripturalî argument presented for vegetarianism. The essence of what Doug Botchelor (misspelling intended) said was: ěGod said (this or that food, usually meat) was unclean. We should not mock God by eating it. Besides, God said this because He was looking out for the health of the Israelites and we should follow those instructions if we are obeying God.î Well . . . (Rant to follow) Why do Adventists ignore what was called clean in the same chapter in Leviticus??? Letís look at a short passage from Leviticus 11
So, here is my question to all you ědonít eat meat because God said it is uncleanî Adventists (who donít post and may not read here): DO YOU OBEY GOD (if you think Leviticus 11 applies to Christians) AND EAT BEEF, LAMB AND SALMON? Do ya? HUH???? He did not say ěyou MAY eat,î He said ěyou SHALL eatî. . . . end of rant. I have always maintained that the dietary laws were much more about ěsetting apartî and ěsanctifyingî the Children of Israel, than about ěhealth and nutrition.î
We (in Christ) are ěset apartî and ěsanctifiedî by faith, through Christ, not food. (whew! back to normal posts) Jerry | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 148 Registered: 10-2001 |
It makes no sense Jerry. Jesus ate meat and they always say that we should follow His example in everything else. Keep the peace at home, if you must, and go out and get yourself a Whopper! LOL --get some bacon on it while you're at it! ;) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 285 Registered: 3-2004 |
Jerry, I am glad you got that off your chest. Just remember that Jesus ate meat and fish. and that we are Sanctified by faith through Christ, not food. If you do not want to eat meat/fish, that is your preorgative. No one will condemn you for it. As for what the SDAs do, that is something we cannot change. Only God can change them, if they want to be changed. I know some things we came out of can be frustrating when we think about where we came from and some things do not make sense the further we get away from SDAism. Every day I learn more of how awesome God is. Diana | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 14 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear Jerry, and all, I'm so glad you made you statement and got that off your chest. I attend a women's bible study group within the Presbyterian church, and last Wednesday I was car-pooling with one of the ladies and she mentioned that she had known an Adventist woman who had belong to a mother's group she was once a part of. That woman had been a vegetarian, but my friend didn't know whether it was by choice or by religion. That was a very astute comment if you think about it. She asked why vegetarianism was a prerequisite to being SDA. I told her it was not, that you could choose to eat meat, but that the prophet (EGW) had made the statement that at the end times, only those who were truly clean (vegetarians) would be still living when Jesus returned. Us meat-eaters would all have to die and be resurrected. My friend looked at me like I had two heads. That is when I laughed and said I was glad that part of my life was in the past. Jerry, I'm sorry you have to make compromises at home, but please be strong, be of good faith, and celebrate your freedom once in a while. If a Big Mac does it for you, great. If not, go for Chateau Brion--same ingredients, much better presentation! Belva | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 737 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jerry, Yes, It says, "these shall ye eat". That is a command every bit as much as the commands that start with "thou shalt not" are commands. My son is a "vegetarian". I put the word in paremphsies because several of us kmow he's really not vegetarian. To keep the peace in his home he's kown to his wife as a 100% dedicated vegetarian. His wife is known to go to extremes on things, to get excessive. My son only wants a fish taco or a burger several times per week, max. When they were first married he told her no meat more than twice per week. Before long she was fixing meat every meal. He really does like the vegemeats better so to her he has become total 100% vegetarian. I only put that in to show that sometimes to keep the peace we have to be creative. Do you live in the Southeran California area? Also, the Hare Krishnas have an awsome vegetarian feast at their gatherings. It's really nice. | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 615 Registered: 7-2000 |
Jerry, loved your humor with the "botchelor" name; quite accurate in describing the scriptural arguments used in their "evangelism"! It is a tragedy so many are pulled into thinking this diet is what God requires of us. grace always, cindy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 454 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jerry, it was great to hear from you again! I admit to laughing as I read your rant--it was just SO TRUE! I have a friend who's never been SDA but who knows about out quirky background because she knows us well. She asked me recently, "Do you ever just ask yourself how you could ever believe all that?" I admitted that I do, and it's quite embarrassing. I'm thankful Jesus heals our shame as well as our deception and ignorance! Colleen | ||
| Nancy Registered user Username: Nancy Post Number: 5 Registered: 6-2004 |
Again, to me that is "Old Testament teaching" and has nothing to do w/ one's salvation but I think everyong is aware of that. Now, if one wants to eat meat, fine but if they want to be vegetarian, that's also fine. I know Adventist that are so unhealty like "fat" and yet they want to shove health issues in your face & all the while I'm thinking, they're something wrong w/ this picture. I hate going to the store w/ my mother, b/c she looks at labels to see of there is "lard" in anything. It drives me crazy and I just want to shake her. She just doesn't get it. It's so stupid!!! | ||
| Grace_g Registered user Username: Grace_g Post Number: 20 Registered: 7-2004 |
For a while my husband and I were "social meat-eaters." We didn't cook meat in our own home, because, well, we were new cooks and afraid of meat. ;) We also didn't routinely order meat while going out to eat. But we did eat meat if we were at an event where meat was served. I was raised to believe that Adventists were vegetarians to promote overall health, and not because of strict dietary laws. I still think there can be overall health benefits to being vegetarian, but now we have a grill, and we have meat all the time. Wev'e finally learned how to cook it! | ||
| Hallanvaara Registered user Username: Hallanvaara Post Number: 69 Registered: 1-2004 |
Scientist say that a vegetarian needs much more vitamin, mineral and micronutrient pills than "all food" eaters if they want to get all essential elements. New researches has revealed that eating much soya changes menĄs hormone balance and fertility. Changes are feminine. My attitude is neutral. Vegetarian versus meat eater...both ways have their + and - . I eat meat seldom but much vegetables, rye bread (yum!) and sugarfree yoghurt. And my tummy is feeling good with this. If I eat white flour bread I get swollen and my tummy is bulging. Jesus gave us freedom of foods, too. Paul emphasized it: "eat what ever is sold in the meat market". Why dig up OT rules for Israelites and twist Gospel? The control of the people so essential to religions that they must continually use shame and guilty to get that control. Diet stuff is just one part of that control. Break free! Tuija | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 41 Registered: 6-2004 |
Has anyone ever seen a site on PETA called Jesus Is A Vegetarian? | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 399 Registered: 7-2003 |
YES, Pw, I HAVE. What an absolute JOKE! I'm almost convinced PETA is an offshoot of adventism. B always says God never commanded people to eat meat, he just "allowed" it ... as in tolerance more than the gift described in Genesis. Then he points to 2 Tim which says all scripture is profitable for doctrine, then he goes running to Isaiah that says pigs are an abomination and therefore he is honoring God to be vegetarian. Did that run through the scripture make sense to you??? Isn't that great exegesis? I have holes in my tongue from biting it so much! I got his "rant" when I said that has long as he was denying the right to eat meat, he was following the "doctrine of demons" per 1 Timothy 4 (I forgot to hold my tongue that time!). He thought his passages over ruled the rest of the new testament which basically says there is no clean/unclean really. I am convinced if someone wants to "prove" adventism's superiority, all they need to do is find 1 verse and the rest of the Bible, it's context and everything else is completely irrelevant so long as the pet-doctrine is spared. But that's my prejudice hanging out again.... | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 741 Registered: 11-2002 |
I've alwsys been told sda's get the command to be vegetarian becausen Daniel wsa ordered by God to be vegetaeiam .And since sda's are called by God, too then then odrers the orders to daniel is for them, too. | ||
| Madelia Registered user Username: Madelia Post Number: 63 Registered: 2-2003 |
Melissa, Exactly what I was thinking this weekend: my tongue is getting extremely sore from all the times I have to bite it!! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 293 Registered: 3-2004 |
I learned in school that SDAs were vegetarian b/c the original diet for Adam and Eve was vegetarian. Then Daniel and his companions were pointed out as a good example of eating vegetarian. But, as I have said, that is not how my parents did it at home. From what I see, my parents took what they wanted from EGW and the Bible and ignored the rest. I raised my son vegetarian and at the time I was vegetarian also. I would slide in and out of being vegetarian. My son continues to be vegetarian, but he is very good with me not being one, now. I have said before and will continue to say it, the longer I am out of Adventism, the more convoluted, demeaning to the human spirit and soul, and controlling it is. I just did not realize it or see it as such when I was a member. Even when I went to church only occasionally I did not see it. What I did see was the "better than thou" attitude and how unhappy they were. After I got into the 12 step program and learned how much God loves me, I was not unhappy and I could share what God did for me. That was something I could not do as an SDA. I did not want to go back to the unhappiness. I almost did and THANK GOD He showed me the EGW site and the rest is history. That just shows me how awesome God is. Diana | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 402 Registered: 7-2003 |
That's what B says about the vegetarian diet...it was God's first, preferred choice and he only "allowed" meat eating...My interpretation is that as Noah was making his offering, God thought "hummmmm, BBQ. You have got to try some of this". And we've been at it ever since. I don't care what the excuse of the day is, it seems SDAs (from all of them I've read and talked to) are vegetarian because the church teaches it. And the church teaches it because EGW said "be ye vegetarian". The rest of the reasons are just excuses to make it not sound so weird to non-SDAs. My opinion, purely. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 34 Registered: 7-2004 |
My dad was a "worker" (SDA administration at conferences/unions)who ate meat. We rarely had meat at home (turkey at Thanksgiving or fried chicken for picnics) but we would eat it when we went out to eat EXCEPT when other "workers" were with us! I was told to never tell anyone we ate meat for fear we would be thought poorly of. Isn't that a sad way to live!? Mom and dad are now retired but to this day my they still are "closet" meat eaters - though it is rare for them to ever have any meat. I think they have been moved to see the "truth"  A wife of one particular couple that my parents did things socially with would let her feelings be known how terrible it was (both physically and spiritually) to eat meat. They came to visit my parents recently for a weekend and on Friday afternoon my mom and this friend were preparing a potatoe cassarole for the potluck after church. Mom said her friend grated almost a pound of cheese and stirred it into the dish! At the potluck there was an inch deep puddle of oil on top! H-m-m-m-m....real healthful living? | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 742 Registered: 11-2002 |
When I was a little girl we went to the SDA church that the mostly upscale SDA's attended. I remember there were numerous ladies in the congreation who wore mink coats in the winter. Many people wore leather jackets, fine leather shoes, leather belts and purses. I remember being a kid and asking my mom how come the church says not to eat meat but all that fur and leather was o.k. I told her if the animal had to die for its fur and leather it seemed wasteful to me to just throw out the meat. She told me maybe it was used for cat and dog food because the cats and dogs have to have meat. But, we had meat nearly every day in my family at supper, too. As you said above, my family pretty much took out of the SDA rules what they wanted and ignored the rest. I think that is what all SDA's do because it would be totally impossible to adhear to all the rules set down by EGW. At least PETA is consistant in that they also abhorror fur and leather. Speeking of food, I have a SDA relative who has her masters degree from a SDA college in food service. She used to teach home ec. at a local public high school. She would have the kids watch the movie of the slaughterhouse, hoping it would lead them to becomming vegetarian. Yuck. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 460 Registered: 12-2003 |
I shared this story here months ago, but it seems the place to share it again. At least ten years ago, I had to meet a doctor for whose dept at LLUMC we were doing a publication. I had to get the design approved before taking the piece to press, and one of his minions arranged with me to meet him briefly at his lunch date at a well-known steak house in San Bernardino. Now this doctor had a physician father who was at that time CEO of LLUMC. I walked into the restaurant and asked for the doctor I was to meet. To my surprise, I was ushered not to "my" doc's table, but straight to the table of the father doc who was lunching with several administrators. Said father looked up with cold eyes from his rare (and I mean bloody-rare) steak and wondered who I was and what I wanted. I apologized profusely and explained I was looking for his son (whom he did not know was also present). It was a truly uncomfortable situation; I felt as if I had intruded and done something really unacceptable. One of the other men at the table noticed the coldness and my discomfort and offered to help me find the right table. I was grateful for the kindness, but turned it down and left as fast as I could without actually running away. I've thought about that situation periodically over the years and wondered exactly what all was going on there. I'm quite certain that the coldness had nothing to do with my finding him relishing raw meat--although that fact was interesting all on its own. I only knew it felt unwelcoming and dangerous in some non-definable way. I'm quite certain now that the coldness I felt was some sort of spiritual reality that stood opposed to the truth I was looking for even then. The non-meat-eating phenomenon, though, seems limited mainly to really sincere lay people who truly believe what they know of EGW. Those who move nearer the sources of power and control in the denomination are quite jaded with Adventism and find it, instead, to be a very convenient identity and means to their financial ends. The practices of aescetic living, it seems, often evanesce when they live their private lives. Colleen | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 37 Registered: 7-2004 |
Yes, I believe EGW was the first of all church leaders to not practice what she preached... |
