| Author | Message | ||
| Grace_g Registered user Username: Grace_g Post Number: 18 Registered: 7-2004 |
I've enjoyed so much reading about how others have slowly stepped out of legalism, that I thought I'd start another topic that's similarly related. The question is: when did you start thinking that there may be something off or wrong with Adventism? What was the turning point that started you down the path out of the church? Here's my main one: 1.) Movies and Adventism: I was born in 1970, so by the time I was a teen-ager, the big debate between Adventists going to the movies was raging. My parents were early adapters, and we had a VCR early on in the '80's. I remembered being so astounded that we could actually rent Star Wars, a movie we could never see because it played in the theater. We were, literally, kids in a candy store in the video store. My parents pretty much let us watch whatever we wanted [except for R movies]. I remember thinking how strange it was that we could watch the very same movie at home, but not in the theater. I also thought it strange that the college could bring movies ONTO the campus [they had a film series back then], but nobody could go TO the theater. Chariots of Fire was big back then, and such an inspirational film [although of course had worshiped on the WRONG day], that they brought the film to the campus. By the time I finally ventured into a theater--past the crying guardian angels--I was astounded at how normal, quiet and peaceful everyone was. Nobody was spitting, cussing, drinking, or behaving in debauchery. They were all watching the movie. I think that was the beginning of the end for me. It made no sense how something so bedrock could be so easily thwarted. It seemed that nobody cared about the actual *content* of the film, just where you watched it. Grace | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 736 Registered: 11-2002 |
The turning point for me was when I was 11 years old and in the 5th grade. I remember my teacher had us memorize John 3:16. Then several months later the teacher taught us the SDA belief on the state of the dead. I kept tellng her, "but it says here we will not die but have everlasting life". Finily she gave up on me and told me I was a little girl and as unable to understand it but I would when I grew up. But, then this same teacher gave us a big long drawn out daily talking about how there never were dionasaurs. That satan made those bones and put them in just the right formation to decieve people into beieving there were dionasaurs so people would not believe the creation story as given in Genesis 1. She told us the earth was 6000 years old and that was that. Well, I loved reading National Geographic and I always knew National Gographic was smarter than my teacher. In 5th grade at age 11 I fully decided when I grew up I was not going to go to my parents stupid religion. Unfortunatelly I did always believe that since the SDA's owned Liberty magazine and taught so strongly about freedom of religion, well, I always took that to mean that whatever religion I wanted to belong to when I grew up that all the SDA's in my life would be happy for me. But, pushing freedom of religion like the SDA's do does not mean that they really believe in freedom of religion. This is evidenced daily by the stories posted on this forum about the hurrassment we on here get from our SDA loved ones about not being SDA. It's so extremely convoluted. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 286 Registered: 3-2004 |
My leaving the SDA church started before I realized it. I learned to dance at family gatherings, we watched TV movies, we read the Readers Digest and National Geographic on Sabbath, went for walks and played with our dolls on Sabbath. This was when I was a kid. I do not remember consciously saying the beliefs do not make sense until I heard about EGW this past January. Every so often as I write something about my past, I get a "whoa" moment when I realize it was God gently tugging me away from SDAism. So my journey away from SDAism started longer ago than I thought. The conscious break came when I read about EGW in January 2004. Diana | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 15 Registered: 7-2004 |
I think the seeds were planted for me when I was very small, five or six. I remember being told that Jesus was like an older brother who came to show is how to live, who died for all of our past sins (those we did before we were baptized), and who had sent the Holy Spirit to guide us in the way of living a holy life. I was really little then, but I knew already how hard it would be to be good all of the time. I thought it was unfair, that God was this stern overseer type of entity--really scary stuff. I was baptized when I was sixteen, while I was attending Academy, and on the bus on the way back to the school (we went to a downtown church for the baptism because they had no baptistry at the school) I prayed and prayed that Jesus would come right then, because right then, at that moment, I was still clean and might have a chance to be saved. I knew all of the lore about the end times, but I was hoping Jesus would stretch those limits just for me. He didn't, I tripped and fell, metaphorically, and got up and tried again, but because I had been raped when I was 12, and my abuser had me believing that he did it because there was something about me that made him do bad things, I lived much of my life carrying around a weight of shame. What happened to me, of course, meant that I could not hope to have a relationship with a good Adventist boy--I was unclean. All of this I carried for years and years. I think it was behind my slipping away from the church. I wanted to have a normal life, but being unclean I couldn't reach for that. My final last straw, however, because I did try to remain a faithful member, was the incessant taking up of one offering after another. I remember one service when they took up three separate offerings during the sermon. One for Signs of the Times, the normal offering, and another for something I can't even remember now. I was insensed, I wanted to hear a message, and all I remember hearing was begging. Belva | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 149 Registered: 10-2001 |
I remember in the 8th or 9th grade reading Romans 14 and thinking it was quite plain but surely there was something I wasn't getting, then I thought maybe the church was wrong, I always doubted it. Reading about all of the jewelry in the bible made me doubt too. There is a lot of mention of women wearing jewelry and even God describes His bride as adorned with jewels. God was always planting seeds, they started growing when I asked Him to show me the Truth. James 1:5-8 was amazing to me. Once I told an SDA to claim it and try it and he told me Jehovah Witnesses use that to get converts. It's exasperating corresponding with Adventists. I learned after 3 years to let them approach me, those are the only ones that are willing to hear. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 455 Registered: 12-2003 |
Wow, Belvalew, what a struggle you lived with. And Sabra, I understand that frustration you described! I grew up with a lot of cognitive dissonance that didn't really bother for years; my mom never really believed the investigative judgment--at least she had serious doubts. I was taught it in school, and it frightened me terribly, but somehow by my 20's I decided I could let it go (I read Ford's dissertation) without giving up any loyalty to Adventism. It's amazing to me now how deep my loyalty to the church was: I completely disbelieved the IJ, and I had serious questions about what God actually resurrected if we did not exist when we died, yet I never questioned the church. I remember my first real problem that I couldn't explain away to myself came about 20 years ago when I was struggling to make Sabbath fit into salvation by faith in Christ alone. I just couldn't come up with an answer that satisfied me. To make the matter worse, I realized that the 7-day week was not a pattern found in nature. I realized there had to be some outside influence for people to come up with a week, and creation seemed to be that influence. At the same time, I tried to figure out why, if the Holy Spirit put God's law in our hearts, so many thousands of people who truly accepted Jesus and honored God did not become convicted of the Sabbath. That dilemma bothered me for years. My capacity for cognitive dissonance was nearly limitless! God is so faithful; I can only say that He brought congruence into my life when the time was right, and He did it in tandem with healing a lot of internal brokenness that was disrupting my life in many ways. Colleen | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 4 Registered: 7-2004 |
I fully appreciate the capacity for cognitive dissonance. I never really had a single turning point, more like a series of slowly falling dominos. And I can't even say that I didn't question the church. I just ignored the areas where I didn't agree; I could still find many blessings. Then my daughter became interested in baptism. Suddenly all of the differences and questions mattered. How could I encourage her to affirm something that I didn't believe was true? | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 739 Registered: 11-2002 |
What you wrote about the numerous offerings is right-on. At the local SDA church they have been beeming in the sermons from campmeeting-live. It took an hour and fifteen minutes yesterday from the start of the sda commercials with the offering before they got to the preaching, preached by Mark Findley. Here's a scary thought-the sda's are launching a new program of community missionaries who will be flooding every neighborhood in ths conference going door to door with an evengalism outreach. These are not volunteers. They are paid from a special evangelism fund to cover their expenses. The fellow up front said in the test market area where the sda's have done this they have had good results. Thought I should warn you! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 290 Registered: 3-2004 |
Like I said in another posting on here, the SDAs are coming to my town. They will have a Revelation Seminar at the church they are establishing. I will be praying that the Holy Spirit will be with those approached that they will not be deceived. In a way I hope that I am approached and that God will give me the words to say, because if he does not, I can get sharp tongued. Thanks for the warning. I have to remember that God can thwart whatever their planning on doing. Our God is awesome. Diana | ||
| Grace_g Registered user Username: Grace_g Post Number: 19 Registered: 7-2004 |
Susan_2, I am amazed at how aware you were at 11 years old. I was nothing like that at that age. I was happy to follow along with whatever came. Your point about Liberty magazine is interesting. I always took Liberty to mean that SDA's encouraged the freedom of practice of religion, but that they always knew that their religion was the correct one. Diana, The way you observed Sabbath was similar to how mine evolved as a child. When we were very young, my parents were very devout: down to us taking baths and prepping for Sabbath on Friday. I'm so glad that Holy Spirit convicted you, and you got to break free! Belvalew I praise God for giving you the strength and courage to survive all that you have had to endure. It is truly a blessing that He has kept you faithful, despite your trials. Speaking of offering, when I was in church today I noticed for the first time two things: 1.) they never mentioned any need of offering from the pulpit 2.) there was no church budget loss/gain inside the bulletin. It was amazing. My husband grew up in a church that didn't even take up offering in the sanctuary. They had a box outside the entrance, and people gave as they felt convicted. Sabra I think its true that people cannot hear what they are ready for. It's hard for me, as I want to tell everyone about this, but I am learning to let the Lord lead me, and give me the right words to say and when to say it. It's a different paradigm for me, but I think it's working out. ;) Colleen, I think my turning point started something, but I, like you, was able to ignore it for a while, even as it built up around me. I think my willingness to marry a non-Adventist was at the end of that road for me. I'm so glad that you have found peace! Ric_b, I loved how you described the slowly falling dominoes. When I was researching EGW, and was hearing that "one didn't have to believe in EGW to remain an Adventist," I remember thinking, it's a house of cards. You take EGW out of it, and the whole thing falls down. Dominoes and cards...hmmm...we should have known we weren't going to last in the church. ;) I hope no-one minds my commenting. I haven't had a chance to post much this week, and I just wanted to reconnect! Grace | ||
| Hallanvaara Registered user Username: Hallanvaara Post Number: 67 Registered: 1-2004 |
My clearest turning point was about 10 years ago. As I have mentioned my mother was strict and infallible authority over all and what she learned about SDA truth was absolutely truth. So my childhood was filled with boring Saturdays, many no-nos and it was someway quite easy to live because I didn另 have to find out what was wrong and right. Mom said and I just obeyed. When I grew up my blinkers stayed on and though I felt something is wrong I never questioned SDA truth. I felt all the time that I叮 chasing something I should have but just can另 reach. I wondered where is the peace, joy and freedom Jesus promised. All I found was boooring Sabbaths, a loads of do叫 and don另s and almost everything I liked was forbidden. My mother didn另 like that I wanted to go out with friends. She wanted me stay home and read Bible etc. Despite my efforts I didn另 find perfect state of living, mind and behaviour and I didn另 find joy and freedom I slipped in a casual way of living but didn另 get that nagging conscience to quieten. I felt anxious because of all that I was taught and still not living by it. I pondered often that freedom SDA叫 talked about. They say it叫 freedom when you don另 have to make sin! Freedom from dancing, playing cards, eating pork.... What a freedom!! Then about 10 years ago I have had it. I had enough of hypocrisy, do叫 and don另s, all that EGW stuff rolling over Bible, hidden truth (I realized what they taught wasn另 whole truth, but didn另 know what was. Still I was scary to reject it because I was afraid I was wrong...what a mess...). I wrote a letter to my sister and I (and her, too) remember it yet. I wrote so fast and words just flew on the paper. I said maybe I have after this earned my new shining poker and an ash shovel into the bargain but now I say this. I wrote about hypocrisy of SDA`s drinking coffee in a gas station cafeteria their collars up so that nobody recognizes them, pastors shaking hands after sermon and their eyes looking over your shoulder more interesting people getting you feel nobody. I flooded my whole life agony, frustration, lost childhood.... and boy how I felt good after this. This was the very first time a dared to rebel against mom = SDA叫. As I wrote: Oh how marvellous I feel now. At last I got rid of that "hair-shirt" I wore all my life. I don另 remember if I told mom about my thoughts. I doubt, she is so conservative. Now she is so demented that it is no use. That letter was my turning point. But it took almost this 10 years before I found the truth. I remember my "whoa" (btw: thanks Doug for a new useful and very describing word  ) and it was 14.1.2004 and after that my life has been not the same. | ||
| Hallanvaara Registered user Username: Hallanvaara Post Number: 68 Registered: 1-2004 |
I have to continue a little because my post slipped on the forum too fast. What I learned about EGW and almost the same time I learned that Christ is our Sabbath was the final turnpoint. What a contrast between these two! At last I understood why Sabbath never felt ok to me. I felt that it was something fake, it didn另 belong here. I had to MAKE Sabbath, it didn另 come same way as the other days, naturally. I still feel quite disgusted what I read about EGW on Dirk Anderson叫 and Robert K.Sander叫 websites and how SDA叫 concern her almost as a half god. Just now I can understand my uneasiness with SDA religion. There were no Christ. As my sister described: "Christ is standing in the hall and waiting for that if He will be called in." Praise God from His Son! We were lost and He found us! Tuija | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 5 Registered: 7-2004 |
Like Ric_b, I also experienced the domino effect, and mostly ignored the cognitive dissonance. However, I did have a turning point that made me wake up to all that dissonance. My daughter, who was 8 at the time, had volunteered to give the offering appeal at church and I didn't want her to. After being told she should do it, I discussed with her what she would say up front. I asked her if she knew what the tithes and offerings were for. She said she knew the tithes were for missions, but didn't know about the offerings. I explained to her that actually the tithe was giving the pastors a paycheck. She was absolutely shocked! She said "WHAT!?! You mean we give a speech up front, have a special prayer, march down the aisle with offering plates, just so the pastor can get a PAYCHECK!? I thought the tithe was for God! What if he decides to spend the whole thing on rubber duckies?" That hit me square in the face (including making me laugh), and I started on a search in the Bible and the internet to help her feel more comfortable with the "Biblical system." That was when I discovered what tithing was really about in the OT, realized the New Testament method is freewill offerings as the Holy Spirit leads, and I also found Dale Ratzlaff's website and this website. Then I decided there was no way I could tell my daughter the SDA system is right and the Bible is wrong. | ||
| Conniegodenick Registered user Username: Conniegodenick Post Number: 30 Registered: 3-2004 |
HI Y'all, This is an interesting thread! I hadn't checked for a while. I'm like Colleen. I lived with unbelievable cognitive dissonance for years. I just kept telling myself that the SDA's had "The Sabbath" and since Ellen White preached that wholeheartedly, then she must be a true prophet. Of course there are always emotional factors. It's hard to leave the church of one's childhood. I was mentored exclusively in Adventism--SDA schools all the way through med school and then even at Florida Hospital for residency training. One thing I always noticed was that the non-SDA Christians in med school and residency seemed to have a much more genuine relationship with God than the rest of us. It was the pain of my failed marriage that led me to reading Proclamation and from there to the ellenwhite.org website. Basically it was reading ALL (yes I read every single article and book posted there) of the material on that website followed by Sabbath in Crisis and Cultic Doctrine that cemented my belief that SDAism is a cult and that I needed to get out FAST before my kids had the same harm done to them as I did. (My worst nightmare used to be that Jesus was coming and I wasn't "ready"--meaning I had committed some sin that day or maybe had forgotten to confess some sin.) I used to have ZERO assurance of salvation (after all Ellen White says that's wrong to claim to have salvation) and basically ONLY took pride/assurance in the fact that we had "The Truth." Now I look back and wonder, how did I possibly believe all that stuff??????????? What an impossible stretch of the imagination. I still have intelligent (at least as measured by IQ tests--in fact to digress, I believe you have to be above average intelliegence to be able to follow the convolutions of SDA doctrine--esp the IJ!) friends who are SDA's. I can only say that for people to remain SDA today, they have to be too emotionally bound up in it or completely unaware of the internet and other sources of information. Like my mother said, "I'm too old to join another church." It's all she's known. Well, great posts--I enjoyed reading them all. Connie | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 34 Registered: 5-2004 |
I've really enjoyed reading about all your starting points. It's amazing how God works so individually in all our lives to bring us to where He wants us to be. I was raised in a very conservative SDA pastors home. We kept sabbath strictly, always rushing around frantically to prepare for sundown on friday night...and then doing nothing on sabbath. My parents did a good job at grounding us well in the bible stories and stuff, but we also knew the church doctrines very well. I struggled being a PK from the perspective of seeing all the ugly stuff that went on in the church, and how the people tore each other up...and wondered how this could be the remnant group, but only felt that many of them would fall away during the time of trouble. In high school I did the rebellous thing and started listening to secular music, going to movies, drinking caffinated pop, etc. And though by college had come back strongly to the church and a walk with God, still indulged myself with these "fun" things that I didn't see the big deal about. It was shortly after I married my husband that I started to get really interested in walking the "correct" walk. And I had a hard time reconciling how I felt that theatres weren't so bad, when you could watch the same at home. My family hadn't had a TV and had gone non-dairy even and I felt that if I was sincerely following God, He would want me to take that route also. We also could never seem to be ready for sabbath on friday night. I was always running around trying to finish things up and the evenings were always so stressful. I also work on an SDA college campus, and so have a front row seat to the atrocities that go on here in the name of christianity. Living in the SDA "ghetto" with my husband working in the business world, we also saw what professing SDA business men here in the area did to non-SDA businesses...and how the non-sda's were more christian than the sads (spelling intended). Around 9/11 I was struck by such a hunger to know God. Every day on my drive to and from work I'd drive through the country and just pray that God would show me His will. That He would help us be ready to meet Him. And I tried harder than ever to do what I was supposed to do. But God is so faithful. He never leaves us alone when we seek Him. In January of this year I stumbled across Dirk Anderson's EGW site...and crashed and burned. 2 weeks after throwing everything but the Bible out, I stumbled across this site, and read a post about the covenant. Then I picked up my Bible, and the rest is history! Since then it's been a life of "whoa" moments. Everything I read is new and exciting and God has been so Amazing! I submit to the Creator of the universe everything I've ever aspired to be...and renounced the religion of works, and in Him, I've finally found rest everlasting. He is so good! | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 400 Registered: 7-2003 |
Connie, I found your post very enlightening. My son's SDA father seems so "intelligent", but it seems he will give up anything to remain an adventist. I basically ended our relationship until he was willing to put a relationship with Christ above being an adventist. He absolutely cannot recognize the difference. To him, the relationship with Christ IS adventism. He has read LAM and several other of "these" websites (though I'm sure he hasn't found this one or I know I'd be hearing about that), but he just insists people are angry about something within the church and there is not "accurate" scripture that disproves their doctrines (his default belief is they are correct). It was one thing when I realized I was disposable if it meant losing adventism, but our son is a child he never thought he could have after years of fertility issues in a previous marriage. I thought he might be the catalyst to re-evaluate adventism (to be more involved in his life). Not so. There is nothing so great that it is worth his adventist identity. I've posted some of his "scriptural" proof of their correct teachings (see the rant for a prime example) and I am continually amazed how truly little scripture he needs to "prove" their point. And all the Bible can blantantly teach something to the contrary, but as long as he can cling to one verse, the rest is irrelevant. B has nothing but glowing and wonderful things to say about all the people and what a blessing it is for him. He's given me the lines that I don't have to believe in EGW or the other doctrines (...so why bother is my response? He expects compromises from me he would never make himself.) How can you argue with something he seems to enjoy so much? He is completely emotionally bound into that religion ... Yet, he generally thinks emotions are a tool of Satan. It's just so sad the price he is willing to pay for that religion. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 294 Registered: 3-2004 |
I just remembered the movie "The King and I". It was shown at La Sierra College when I was there. Of course, when it came to the dancing, a hand was held over that part. After that, when students went home they went to see all the movie, the dancing included. All I can say for myself was I was raised this way and did not ask questions when things were different. I was an obedient little girl, never questioning or putting parents or teachers on the spot. God had to show me how much he loved me and cared about me before I was ready to give up EGW and like the dominoes, that have been hit, everything else went down with her. What is funny to me is that I did not like to hear EGW quoted in church. This started while I was still a member of the church. I would walk out if she was. I cannot say why, except God put it in me. God is awesome in all he does. Diana | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 35 Registered: 7-2004 |
I just got back from a long weekend away and have so much to catch up on. I love this question, Grace, and I do so appreciate everyone sharing their past and insights. I, too, look back and can see the workings of God and His leading me to think outside the SDA box. Though He was slowly leading me out it was so slow that I did not resist. I think if it had been obvious I would have fought it hard. I bought it all so completely (it still gets my ire up just thinking about how I was "snookered"). One reason I do not say much to my SDA friends and family is that I just want them to see my faith in Jesus. I certainly share that daily to everyone but I want to give them as little amunition (sp?) as possible to blame my departure of "truth" on my anger about something within the church like Melissa's dad does. I want them to see Jesus and my happiness, peace and contentment that He brings to my life and see SDA for what it really is. This is how God finally brought me out of my legalism and into His New Covenant. I think I shared previously about sending my daughter to a non-denominational Christian school because the SDA school did not have a kindergarten...? That was my first experience of being around those "mis-guided Sunday worshippers"! When I saw people living with Jesus and being so in love with Him they could openly share His love, I began to see that SDA was dead wrong about these people hunting us persecuted SDA's down and taking our Bibles away from us! That was when I started searching and reading and being willing to look at books like "Sabbath in Crisis" and "Cultic Doctrines of SDA's" and other books on EGW. You can't argue when the writers of these books use EGW's own words to make their points. Praise God for those brave souls willing to speak out (Ratzlaff, Canright, Anderson...), this forum and people like all of you!! | ||
| Vchowdhury1 Registered user Username: Vchowdhury1 Post Number: 4 Registered: 7-2004 |
Here is what used to bother me growing up in the SDA Church: 1. When I was a child, I used to ask my parents who are still staunch SDA, why I couldn't wear Jewelry? They would answer saying "EGW says that Jewelry equals pride in oneself. We should not exude pride within ourselves". But I couldn't understand why it was okay for these SDA ministers, their wives and influencial church members to own expensive estates, drive BMW's, wear designer suits, and carry $300 designer handbags as well as wear $5000 Rolex watches!! Isn't that exuding pride in oneself?? 2. Also, why was it wrong to go to the movies, but okay to watch cable tv and video's with the same movie as the one showing at the theatre. My parents would always say, "Its the environment". Well, when I go to the grocery store, or when I'm at work am I not in the "environment"??? 3. Why couldn't we eat pork, or shell fish, but its okay to eat a ton of sugar (cakes, cookies, etc.)which will probably kill us faster! 4. Why wasn't it okay to wear makeup, when those SDA pastors would especially NOTICE the women that wore makeup (if you know what I mean. In fact because of these philandering SDA Pastors, their wives should be required by law to wear makeup. It probably would keep some of these pastors home). Anyway, I could go on and on, But Mark Chapter 10 in the Bible tells us that it does not matter what we eat, because it passes through the body anyway. But what really matters is whats in our hearts. This is most important. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 745 Registered: 11-2002 |
I was not brought up with a lot of the SDA rules. I would have these rules taught to me at the school. Then when I got home my parents would just tell me a lot of what I was being taught by my SDA teachers was stupid. When I asked them how come I went to SDA schools if they were teaching me such stupid things it would always get back to the Sabbath and pork. My parents believed Christmas, especially Easter and most other holiday celebrations were a sin. So, I was in a SDA school that had a Christmas program and my parents told me to take part in it but not to believe a word of it. To this day my mom will insist she has never in her life observed Chistmas. But, that is not true. Every year as a kid we'd have a family reunion on the Sunday between Christmas and New Years and us kids would get loads of presents all wrapped in Christmas paper. Every relative except my parents had these presents under a Christmas tree. My parents told me a Christmas tree was a sin to have. I was told we were not celebrating Christmas because the reunion would be on the Sunday after Christmas, not on Dec. 25. In some ways my parents agreed with Herbert W. Armstrong a lot more than the SDA so I got the SDA stuff at school, somewhat at home but at home it was more the rules in ageement with the Worldwide Church of God. I will tell you my religious upbringing as a child can only be referred to as extremely schitzopherenic! |
