| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 377 Registered: 12-2003 |
The reason historic SDAs insist on the KJV is that it's only in the KJV that Daniel 8:14 reads, "Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." The NIV says, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated." The KJV is the only modern translation (well, I'm not sure about the NKJV) that uses the word "cleansed". It's actually not as accurate a translation. The NASB uses the words "properly restored". Without the word "cleansed" in the verse, there's really NO excuse to use Daniel 8:14 to "prove" the 1884/investigative judgment doctrine. And that doctrine, of course, is the only unique doctrine of the church. Without it, as the leaders themselves acknowledge, there's no reason for the church to exist. I'm not sure exactly what they purport the problem with the NIV to be--except I've also heard of those RCC intimations. Basically, the problem is Daniel 8:14. And even with the KJV, that text does not refer to the sanctuary in heaven, as Adventists assert. Certainly with the more accurate translations they cannot say Dan. 8:14 refers to the heavenly sanctuary! Colleen | ||
| Hallanvaara Registered user Username: Hallanvaara Post Number: 44 Registered: 1-2004 |
Isn¥t it amazing that a religion is established just on few words found in Bible? IJ is supported only with one word: cleansed. Almost same thing is with tithing. Bible mentions only 3 different stories about tithing. Correct if I¥m wrong: Abraham paid Melchisedek because he won a battle, was it Jacob (I¥m not sure of this?) paid because he was grateful to God for his succesful and safe journey and then those many instructions of how, who and when to tithe. And notice, only farmers pay tithe, no one else. Verses you have heard hundreds of times in Malachi 3 is ripped off from it¥s original context and it was a reproach to jews who weren¥t faithful. SDA is not so unique with it¥s interpretations, all denominations uses Bibles just in their "ear itching" and make it see that is exactly what God says to us. I think that only mainstream christianity like lutherans don¥t twist Bible so much like others. At least they emphasize grace. Luckily you and me have awakened. I felt almost all my life that something in this religion isn¥t right but just didn¥t know what then was and haven¥t courage to leave. I can¥t thank enough my Lord who finally answered to my questions and led me to truth, to Him. The more and more religious people typeset verses in front of me I feel disgusted. If you try to make a conversation you get for answers only verses, a verse from here and a verse from there. And you are assured that those verses explain each other. They don¥t convince me. You can¥t read Bible like that. But how you tell it to that person and make him to understand that? Praise God from His Son! Tuija | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 23 Registered: 5-2004 |
This topic has been running around in my head for awhile now, so I must spill. A month or so ago, I was at my grandmothers and happened to see "Orininal Love" by Des Cummings, Jr. and picked it up to look throught it. I was not highly impressed, but didn't really think twice about it. Then 2 wks ago we were asked to go to Campmeeting with our families in Wisconsin. Which is still a HUGE deal in the SDA circle. One of the few tent campmeetings left and truthfully it is a great time of spiritual and family/friend fellowship. However, the big ticket speakers were....Mark Finley and Des Cummings, Jr. I avoided Finley's meetings, but was hearing great things about Cummings, so we went. My husband I sat there in disbelief. He was an incredible story teller, made the story of Jaboc & Leah/Rachel really come alive, and also Abraham/Sarah. However, he'd be talking along and throw in "and that's why we need the Sabbath, to feel fulfilled. God promises us His promises when we allow Him to work in our lives by keeping the Sabbath". Now six months ago I would have been as "blessed" by his speach as the thousands of people sitting there in awe were. But I couldn't help but see that the church is grasping at straws. Now, I may have missed something but my Bible doesn't even refer to Sabbath in any of the patriarch stories. And yet, we have a whole book devoted to the telling of how each of these people KEPT sabbath and were BLEST by IT. Not once in his meeting did he mention Christ. Here is the marketing for this book: "Experience Peace, Meaning, and Harmony through Sabbath Rest. This book describes the relevance of Godís perfect love in an imperfect world. Dr. Cummings unfolds the love drama as shown through the lives of Bible characters. As the stories unfold, you will experience the tragedy of sin and the triumph of love. Learn the principles and practices that will allow you to live love now and forever!" So, sabbath is God's love for us. Yes...the real Sabbath! Yeshua. I have no problem with Sabbatarians who worship on the day. I still attend church on both. But, no Christian in their right mind could go on, and on about the love of God and the blessings God will show, and the fullness of our lives... and tie it all in with the Sabbath Day and entirely miss even a reference to our Rest IN CHRIST. It enrages me in one sense, and leaves me terribly sad in another. I know we all have our struggles with Adventism, and the people we care about still in the system...so this isn't anything new. But it reminds me of a text. "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed" Gal 1:8 | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 672 Registered: 11-2002 |
I have often thought that the seventh day of the week is the SDA's christ. Think about it-children through primary or 3rd grade hear about Jesus. Then when a kid gets into the junior room or around in the 4th grade the entire emphasis changes and Jesus no longer is presented as our Saviour but rather the Sabbath is presented as the savior. When was the last time any of you sang the song, "Jesus Loves Me" in the adult worship service at the SDA church? That is one of the main songs sung in the worship service at the Lurtheran church where I attend. And, since Lutherans practice baby baptism it generally is sung by the congreation at this joyous occassion. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 6 Registered: 7-2004 |
Colleen, Regarding your insight on KJV vs NIV and Dan. 8:14...since I am new to the forum, please forgive me if I am repeating a subject that may have already been covered recently... I never paid much attention to all my SDA teachings on Daniel and Revelation. It was always so scary and such a hateful subject even though I was aware that my salvation depended on it... What is the vision of the ram and goat and the little horn all about? Daniel tells in verses 17 and 19 that it pertains to the time of the end. Why is the time of the end so important? It does not make a bit of sense to me why we even need to consider the meanings beyond resting in Jesus and His love in all things at all times. Is this just ant-SDA sentiment or is there something I am missing? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 384 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hi, Dd--The ram and the goat, etc., were foretelling the rise of the nations of Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome. The horns had to do with the distant future before the return of Jesus. The purpose of those visions, I believe, is so that as world events unfold, God's people would not be caught off-guard. The visions also give people a sense of where they are in the total history of the earth. God didn't reveal enough to tell us in advance exactly what would happen, but he revealed enough so we have a vague, big-picture outline of what to expect. This way, also, we can know that all that happens is part of God's plan. We are not spinning out-of-control with no end in sight. Most of those visions of Daniel's have come to pass already. All those horns and feet-of-clay-and-iron are not yet complete. But we can know that we are in the time of the end. Add to these visions the prophecies in 2 Thessalonians, we know that an antichirst will come, etc., and we have some vague understanding of what types of things will come--but more importantly, as things come to pass we can see the touch of God's providence, and we can see that we are securely in the will of God and that He has not abandoned us. That's how I understand it! Colleen | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 598 Registered: 7-2000 |
Wow Esther, I agree totally with your feelings of anger and sadness! I hadn't heard of the Cummings book or campmeeting circuit preaching, but you are correct in saying it seems they are grasping at straws building up the 7th-day Sabbath so highly. It really has become an "anti-Christ" doctrine... A denial of Jesus Christ as being completely sufficient for salvation and rest (and peace, meaning and harmony!) grace always, cindy | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 674 Registered: 11-2002 |
This thread is titled "SDA books" so I'll put some thoughts here. I am so poor and I knew I'd like to eat today so yesterday I asked my mom if she'd like for me to take her to church today. Saves her a taxi ride. Sadly, it gets up her hopes about me when I go with her. My 19 year old son even went along today because he knew he'd like to eat today, too. And, I don't feel it would be right to just pop in after the service for the food. However, my son said that is his plan from now on. Anyway, now to the book I picked up in the narthax. Colleen, I'll mail it to you next week. It is intended for the SDA's to pass out in their wittessing. It is small. Titled, "Let's Get Acquainted, Your Friends, The Seventh-day Advntists" by, Ken Mc Farland. Page five has several breif statements about the SDA. One statement is,"Evangelcal Protestants who accept the Bible as our authority for what we believe and how we live". Are SDA's evangelical? Are SDA's Protestants? Another statement again on page five says, "A Christian fellowship committed to sharing with others certain Bible truths that over the centuries have been largely lost sight of-or that have become mixed with errors." That statement alone should raise the red flag in anyone who is alert reading this booklet. It is nearly exactly the line the JW's use. Then on page six it says, "We do not believe that only Seventh-day Adventists will be saved-or that we are the only church around that teaches Bible truth". This is followed by, "We do not believe in salvation by works (being good). We do not believe that we are saved by Sabbath-keeping, clean living, or keeping the Ten Commandmentds-but by trusting extirely in Jesus Christ." Then pages 6, 7, and 8 give a breif condenced history of SDA'ism. Pg. 7 says, "Ellen White, a mere teenager at the time of the great disapointment grew into a gifted author, speaker and administrator, who would become and remain the trusted spiritual counselor of the Adventist family". Pg. 8, "We do not have a formal creed becauase we do not want to freeze truth in its tracks and stop searching our Bibles for new truth-or for a clearer understnding of old truth". Pg. 13 says, "When we accept Crist's life and death in our place, He justifies us-which means that He pardons us fully and accepts us as if we had never sinned. He also makes us new again (the new birth) and gives us power to live as He lived and power to love as He loved". Pg. 14 is about the weekly seventh-day Sabbath and says this, "The Sabbath is a celebration of God's power to deliver us from the power of sin". YES, this is just what this booklet put out by Pacific Press says! Pg. 15 says, "Although we as Adventists do not see ourselves as better than any other true Christians, we do believe that-in fullfillment of Bible prophecy-God has called Adventists into existance just before the second coming of Christ to help restore certain Bible truths that have long been lost sight of". Then the next page says we should use grape juice as a symbol of Christs blood. Then we get to the heading, Spiritual Gifts and under that it says,"Seventh-day Adventists believe that the gift of prophecy in all its fullness was evident in the life and work of one of its founding pioneers-Mrs. Ellen G. White."Then they get into the SDA lifestyle-decent entertainment, no smoking or alcohol, no unclean meats, etc and it even mentions no jewlery. Then we get the condensed version of the 1844 sancturary doctrine and something about this being the Day of Atonement which to me doesn't make any sense at all. Then we get the doctrine of death.Finily we come to the second advent of Christ which includes the SDA understanding of the millennium. The last six pages or so are commericals for the various SDA ministries, and explains the organizanical structure of the denomination. The last page makes it very plain that although the early founders eagerally looked for the coming of Jesus in 1844 the SDA church itself has never set a date for His return. It's quite a book! Has 30 pages and is very small, 5" x 3", or so. | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 603 Registered: 7-2000 |
I have seen that booklet also. As you said, just the statement that Adventists are "A Christian fellowship committed to sharing with others certain Bible truths that over the centuries have been largely lost sight of-or that have become mixed with errors." should be a danger signal, especially to those who are already Christians! I love what C.S. Lewis wrote (I may have already posted this favorite quote somewhere!) in "The Screwtape Letters" about the superior, unique type of mindset that the older devil Scewtape wants to instill in his young pupil, junior devil Wormwood. Advising Wormwood on doing his devilish work with his human ìpatientî, Screwtape writes: "The real trouble about the set your patient is living in is that it is "merely" Christian. They all have individual interests, of course, but the bond remains mere Christianity. What we want, if men become Christians at all, is to keep them in the state of mind I call "Christianity And"..... If they must be Christians let them at least be Christians with a difference. Substitute for the faith itself some Fashion with a Christian colouring. Work on their horror of the Same Old Thing." This really has been a deception used by Satan quite successfully, hasn't it? Just de-throne the sufficiency! and finality! and supremacy! of Christ crucified somehow... and JESUS, plus nothing! is not enough!! grace always, cindy | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 7 Registered: 7-2004 |
Colleen, Thanks for your insight on end time happenings/prophecy. If there is any resentment within me, (and I pray daily that God bring my focus to the bright future of a relationship with Him rather than where I have been) it is more visible when dealing with end time studies. I like your point that "as things come to pass, we can see the touch of God's providence..." Thanks, once again, for sharing your Spirit-lead insight. Cindy, Thanks for the C.S. Lewis quote. Loved it! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 389 Registered: 12-2003 |
Susan, I did get the book "The Passion of the Ages". It's qite horrifying, really--the blatant misuse of name of The Passion to decieve people into Adventism. I guess that slppery ease with which they "borrow" is not surprising--it's their heritage! I'll look forward to this next one. Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 681 Registered: 11-2002 |
Colleen, I mailed the next one in todays mail. It says, "The Sabbath is a celebration of God's power to deliver us from sin." I picked it up from in the literature rack in the narthax of the local SDA church two days ago. This booklet is also put out by Pacific Press. When I read the line I quoted above my first thought was, "Well, there it is. They do admit the weekly Sabbath is our deliverance from sin". I have never commented on CARM but I do read the posts over there. I would like someone from here who also posts on CARM to confront some of those dedicated SDA's with this quote. After all, it is a booklet put out their own denomination at a church owned and run publishing company. Colleen, I hope you aren't angry with me about my tacky sense of humor. I hope someone goes to the Remnant thread and comments on the topic I put above at the top titled Religious Liberty. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 394 Registered: 12-2003 |
Susan, no anger here! | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 67 Registered: 5-2004 |
THe entire statement that "the Sabbath is a celebration of God's power to deliver us from sin." is absolutely not backed up anywhere in the Bible. I mean, I can't think of one single spot in the New or Old testament from whence this premise can be supported, can you?? I guess you could use the Sabbath hours to celebrate God's power to deliver us from sin. But that certainly is not the biblical reason for keeping the Sabbath. Did the article specifically go on to say that the Sabbath does the actual saving? ... or just that it is supposed to be a time to celebrate God's power? | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 694 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dear Tealeaves, I did not take that sentence out of context at all. That is just what the sentence says under the chapter heading, "Sabbath". I mailed Colleen the booklet from the post office yesterday. In fact, in the literature rack in the church were several more of these booklets. If you'd like I could grab them and send them all to Colleen and maybe she'd send one on to you. I don't think it is wise to give out a mailing address over the Internet. I have given my p.o. box number but will not give my home address. What really struck me is that these booklets are intended as a wittessing aid. Generally SDA's don't witness too much to non-Christians but target Christians so these Christians can learn "the rest of the truth" or, "the rest of the gosple". I would think a Christian who really knows his stuff would catch these comments in these sorts of booklets. Sadly though there are a lot of practicing Christians who really don't understand Christianity too well and that is how denominations like the SDA and JW can hook so many who already attend Christian churchs. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 699 Registered: 11-2002 |
This entry will not be about a book but it will be about a magazine. The current Review came today so I looked through it while at my moms earlier. The feature artcle is about how the Adventist church is embrasing other cultures into its worship. For instance they now have around 10-15 synagues in New York. These are SDA churchs but they refer to them as synagues and the worship style is that of a Jewish worship service, complete with the men wearing the yamaka and getting out the Torah on the scroll, etc. No mention of Christ but alot of mention about how the SDA church is so open to other cultures worship styles. Then it went on to say about the converts to SDA'ism from Muslem. Seems the SDA's let the Moslem converts pray on prayer rugs, remove their shoes upon entry into the worship building and the Moslem coverts to SDA'ism are going to this SDA church/mosque and holding a prayer service five times per day. How is this true Christianity? If I go to the SDA church will they now embrace my Chrstian culture and let me lead the congreation in reciting the Apostles Creed, in reciting the Our Father (which, btw, the SDA's still did in corperate worship when I was a child but I haven't observed this in a SDA church in at least 40 years now), having commnion with real wine at the alter, and other truly Christian traditions? It just seems like desperation to me. Furthermore, the article has no mention about how the SDA church is incorperating Christ into these other religious traditions. Also, it occurred to me that over the years growing up I have on numerous occassions listened to numerous SDA's say that they have a real problem with the Catholic missionaries, especially the ones down in Central and South America allowing the converts to Catholic, allowing these conerts to maintin some old traditions. When I was in Hawaii at the little local Catholic church the Jesus and the Mary statues each had lies around their necks. I thought it was kind of nice, including that kind of local tradition into the church. But, this SDA way of incorperating the local culture into Adventism seems too far removed from Christianity. Any thoughts? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 410 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, I do have some thoughts about this subject! I've mentioned before that several years ago I did an interview with Jerry Whitehead, then the GC director for Muslim relations for the SDA church. He told me that SDA evangleism to Muslims had gone the direction of incorporating the missionaries' lives into Muslim culture, dressing and living like them, worshiping with them, etc., and winning their trust, then sharing their OT Scriptures with them because of so many similarities: diet, one God, etc. Gradually they tell them the "truth" about Christ, and Muslims can accept Christ and stay Muslim! There is no need, he said, to call them out of their Muslim lives; they just need to have Christ within their Muslim lives. Last Sunay in church I saw the text that completely clarified to me what's wrong with that assumption (besides the logical fact that their God can't be our God if it doesn't include Jesus): the text is Genesis 16:20-21. Here's what it says: "And for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year." There it is: God's covenant was made with Isaac, not Ishmael. Galatians emphasizes this point by comparing the descendants of Ishmael, son of Hagar the bondwoman, to the descendants of Isaac, son of Sarah and the son of promise. By God's fiat, 'way back then during Abraham's time, Ishmael is not the recipient of the covenant. Today, in order to be part of God's covenant, we must accept the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus and thus become children of God. (John 1:12) Muslims must leave behind the heritage of Ishmale,just as we have to leave behind the heritage of ADventism, and embrace Jesus to enter the covenant. Now, I'm not going to say that a Muslim can't accept Jesus and receive salvation, anymore than I'll say that an Adventist can do so. But I believe that when a Muslim or an Adventist (or anyone else, for that matter!) really does surrender to Jesus, God's claim on him will bring him further into truth and away from the deceptive heritage. Adventists are evangelizing Muslims from a complete misunderstanding of God's covenant--because they misunderstand it for themselves, let alone for Muslims and Jews! You can't superimpose Christianity and God's covenant onto false religion and come up with truth. We have to be willing to surrender our identities and be identified only by Jesus. I hope that makes sense--- Colleen | ||
| Ladylittle Registered user Username: Ladylittle Post Number: 22 Registered: 4-2004 |
I believe you must have ment ". . . any more than I'll say that an Adventist can't do so. . . "? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 412 Registered: 12-2003 |
You're right, Ladylittle! Thank you! | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 196 Registered: 5-2002 |
Alas, you can't put new wine into old wineskins! |
