| Author | Message | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 146 Registered: 10-2001 |
Colleen, What you said made me think of the food laws and how they say, "these foods shall be unclean for YOU." Not that they were unclean in themselves, just for Israelites." hmmm I believe the ark and Noah's family and that whole story represents the church, even to the food laws. Susan, One more seed planted. Give God glory! If they could see that legislation doesn't make anyone love. Rules don't change desires, only actions. Laws don't make people moral, only legislate immorality. Love is the greatest commandment and the one that was there from the beginning. Absense of love causes laws to be neccesary. If they could just take it back to the beginning--the Word was love. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 13 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear Sabra, Your last post was sweetly profound. My explanation of the reason certain foods were taboo to the Jews came from a Catholic friend of mine a long time ago. She had offered me a ham sandwich which I had dutifully refused with the explanation that God didn't want us eating ham because it was unclean. I'm glad I've grown beyond calling things clean and unclean. However, because of learned tastes, I still prefer not to eat pork. I will, however, eat shellfish with a relish I wouldn't have expected. Go figure! There are many events in my life I wish I could relive and do over correctly. I would have eaten foods generously offered, rather than self-righteously refused; I would have gone to be with people because they needed me to be with them rather than said, "no, it's Friday night and I must not mingle (read party) with the unfaithful." I was a good Adventist, but not a very good friend at times. What that did for me was separate me from a lot of people and leave me to be alone. The people in the Adventist church I attended were status minded and I didn't have the right clothes, drive the right kind of car, or live in the right neighborhood, so I was in a sort of limbo. Maybe that is why I drifted away like I did. Susan, I loved your story about the windshield. That was love in action. I'm still struggling with some of my SDA conditioning because I look at what someone might be doing rather than who they are (a child of God, perhaps?). I'll pray that one day your mother can see beyond her conditioning. If you think about it most SDAs are almost like puppets held by the strings of all the regulations defined by that religion--don't eat this, don't wear that, don't associate with outsiders during these days/hours. It's all very confining and crazy-making. Do we have enough deprogrammers to go into all the SDA churches and liberate all of God's people who are there? My husband, who is Presbyterian, worries about me when he sees me on this site because it has the word Adventist appearing in the name of it. He fears that I am returning to that church. I've been deprogrammed by the Gospel, praise the Lord, but my heart still aches for loved ones who are robotically continuing to try to qualify for Heaven. I praise God, as well, that you are all here. It helps clear away some of my remaining cobwebs when I read the things you've all said. We humans are such creatures of habit. Sometimes it helps to be reminded that what we are doing is a conditioned response, and that it really isn't necessary to continue doing something just because we always have. My mother passed away in 1989, and a year later I was visiting my aunt, her sister, and I made the comment that one day we would all be together again. My dear aunt, a kind and loving woman who I know loved Jesus, looked at me with anxious eyes and said, "Oh, I don't know, we can never presume that we will be saved." She, too, has now gone to her rest, and I was talking to her daughter (she, too, has found the Gospel) at the funeral and we were giggling about the fact that her first few minutes with Jesus would have included her arguing that it was too soon, that she shouldn't be there yet. Jesus left us with one great commandment, to love one another as he has loved us. Jesus was able to look right through all of the stuff that people were doing to see who they really were. He then responded to that person when He talked to them. Zacheaus had a heart of gold, the rich young ruler had a heart that loved gold. The Lord spoke to them both honestly and lovingly. We will never be that good at loving, but it is a worthy goal. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 288 Registered: 3-2004 |
Belvalew, I can really identify with you when you talk about the status minded SDA churches. I call them elitist churches. The only thing that kept me going back was I was afraid to go to church on Sunday (can you imagine that as an SDA???), and that I had been told the church is a hospital for sick people. I came from the wrong side of the tracks, was poor and worked my way through college and university. As I visited different churches over the years it did not matter that I was a Loma Linda University Graduate and earned a decent salary. I am getting a "whoa" moment. That was one of the reasons I stopped attending regularly. The other reason was I was sick with chronic fatigue syndrome and needed to rest weekends so I could work during the week. I used Sabbaths to rest and go shopping. I told myself that God did not mind my shopping on Sabbath, as I was too tired to do it during the week after work. I no longer have chronic fatigue syndrome. That is another long story of God taking care of me and showing me what to do about it. Our God is awesome. Diana | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 738 Registered: 11-2002 |
Belvaleu,About refusing the ham sandwich- my SDA uncle always loved pork. But, he knew it was wrong to eat it so he never bought it for himself. He really loved that text that says to eat whatever is set before you so you won't cause someone elses faith to falter. Seems like at least once per week he'd work it out so he'd show up at his non-SDA friends homes right about mealtime, always at a meal when he knew pork was being served. Everyone was on to him, even his non-SDA friends got to where they'd make a point of invitig him to dinner on the days they were fixing pork. It was/is so funny. But, it is an indication of the SDA thought process of trying to figure out how to do what one really wants to do and be able to justify it. I sure do miss him. Of all my aunts and uncles he was my favorite. He passed away around five years ago. He liked getting away from the diehard SDA's and him and me would go out and he'd get a beer. I just zipped my lip. Mind you, he did not overdo any of it, it was always in great moderation. However, the SDA church says any alcohol or pork is wrong so SDA's have to be creatine in figuring out ways to justify getting around the rules. | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 75 Registered: 5-2004 |
Susan, about your mom... I think that even while she's blustering about the "wrongness" of your church, she is getting glimpses of the true message of Christ's love working through His people! Sometimes I think that the arguing about doctrine is the "difficult" way to talk to SDAs about the true Christ. -That the easiest way, and the most effective way, is just to live His Word out. To let the Holy Spirit work through you. Don't be discouraged! We are praying for you -tanya- | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 457 Registered: 12-2003 |
The ham sandwich story above reminds me of an anecdote a lady at our church told me about three or four years ago. She and her husband worked for Mission Aviation Fellowship, and they manned a refueling station for a while in some fairly remote Pacific Island location I can't quite remember right now. They provided fuel and food for a lot of missionary pilots including Adventists. She told me that she knew the SDA food restrictions, but she would radio back to incoming SDA pilots with great seriousness that they were clear to land, and she had ham sandwiches and coffee ready for them. I found it quite amusing. Colleentinker | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 291 Registered: 3-2004 |
Colleen, I sat here and laughed as I read what you wrote above about having ham sandwiches and coffee ready for the SDA pilots. I wonder what they ate and drank when they landed!! Diana | ||
| Grace_g Registered user Username: Grace_g Post Number: 21 Registered: 7-2004 |
Susan_2, I just wanted to write and let you know that I am praying for you and your relationship with your mother. It is so hard, for both parent and child, when something happens to affect change in that relationship. I know that it can be very painful. Give it some time, and hopefully your mother will adjust. Just know that you are in God's graces. I am praying that your Mom will be able to see past your differences, and not to feel betrayed. It is so wonderful that the Lutheran church helped with your windshield. What a blessing. I'll be thinking and continuing prayer for you, Grace | ||
| Doug_s Registered user Username: Doug_s Post Number: 24 Registered: 7-2004 |
As I was reading the comments about guarding the edges of the Sabbath I laughed because it reminded me of a time in Sabbath school when something was said and a person responded "is that in the bible? A guy next to me said it was not biblical, it was "Whitical". Many times it was difficult determine whether our studies were biblical or Whitical. And don't get me started on elitism in the church. And speaking of potlucks, I used to bust my tail setting up and taking down tables and chairs for potluck - on Sabbath - while other perfectly healthy young men would sit around with that justifying look on their face that says I don't have to help you because it's the Sabbath. I was head deacon for two years and it was like pulling teeth to get those guys out on a work bee. I suggested, to the guys in my small group, that we help each other move, when someone relocated or bought a house. I got blank stares and silence. Well, the Lord has called me into a Sunday school class and that is exactly what they do. We willingly help each other because we genuinely care for one another, praise the Lord! It's a ministry for each other and it's a witness to the community we move into. When the people who already live in the community see us helping one another moving in or out, they are just blown away by the fact we would do it for nothing, simply because we care. Whew, I feel better now. Thanks, for listening. Doug | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 401 Registered: 7-2003 |
I've only read to Friday on this thread trying to catch up, but I've gotta know....what is the big deal with vinegar/pickles??? B says there have been "studies" proving vinegar is harmful to the body? Is that legit or is he just applying that SDA knowledge to keep EGW prophetic?? I keep thinking these things are just him, but here you all are miles apart and saying the same stuff. It seems it has to be the religion, but is there anything in legitimate science that keeps these wives' tales (or phophet tales to be more accurate) alive? | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 295 Registered: 3-2004 |
Melissa, I think it is EGW thoughts when it comes to pickles and vinegar. I have not read any scientific studies, but Vinegar is used for all kinds of things to improve health. I cannot give any quotes right now. It is just stuff I have read in reference to health foods. In my mind it is "prophet tales" as you so aptly put it. Diana | ||
| Doug_s Registered user Username: Doug_s Post Number: 26 Registered: 7-2004 |
If vinegar is harmful for the body then why was EGW taking so much of it. She was addicted to the stuff. She most likely was taking a stronger content of vinegar than is sold in stores today. "I had indulged the desire for vinegar. But I resolved with the help of God to overcome this appetite. I fought the temptation, determined not to be mastered by this habit. For weeks I was very sick; but I kept saying over and over, The Lord knows all about it. If I die, I die; but I will not yield to this desire. The struggle continued, and I was sorely afflicted for many weeks. All thought that it was impossible for me to live. You may be sure we sought the Lord very earnestly. The most fervent prayers were offered for my recovery. I continued to resist the desire for vinegar, and at last I conquered. Now I have no inclination to taste anything of the kind. This experience has been of great value to me in many ways. I obtained a complete victory." -- Ellen G. White, letter 70, 1911, reproduced in Counsels on Diet and Foods, p. 485. Here is the website if you want to read more about it. http://www.ellenwhite.org/contra9.htm Doug | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 743 Registered: 11-2002 |
Fortunatelly I grew up with a lot of farmers and the women did their own canning. I grew up eating yummy homemade pickles and vingegar was abundant. Then, I'd go to the SDA school and my teacher would tell us it was wrong. Then I would ask my parents why alot of our kin and us liked that stuff so much if it was wrong and I'd be told it wasn't wrong, that my teacher was stupid. Then I'd ask if she was so stupid then why did we go to the SDA church each Sabbath and why did I have to go to church school. I would be told because the SDA had the truth of the Sabbath, the truth about the state of the dead and the truth about pork and that was all I needed to be concerned about. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 36 Registered: 7-2004 |
WOW! So much good reading to catch up on after a few days gone...I best cancel our week long vacation next week...I will miss you guys too much!! Sabra - your story about your mother dropping the bottle and saying she believed God was telling her she shouldn't have bought it...reminds me of something my parents said to me (kind of off the topic - forgive me). When I was in academy, the parents of a student were killed in a car accident on their way home from an evening out with friends at a resturant. It was a Friday night after sundown and my mom said, "If they hadn't been out breaking the Sabbath they wouldn't have been killed" implying that God was punishing them. This weekend was a girl's weekend away with my 12 year old daughter. We went away to listen to the James Dobson's tape series on "Preparing for Adolescence" (Has anyone done this with their child? It was a remarkably, wonderful time together!). I had to turned the tapes off many times to add my two cents to the different topics (which included self-esteem, peer pressure, puberty, hormones, sex, marriage...). At one point Dr. Dobson said something about God discipling us for the wrong choices we make, and it rubbed me wrong. I told my daughter about this couple that was killed and what my mom had said to me. We have consequences from our choices both good and bad. Does anyone have thoughts to share with me? The weekend was especially wonderful because it gave me so many opportunities to be in God's word and for me to say, "Now your grandparents, aunts, uncles believe....because SDA....I was raised to believe....BUT....here's what I have found in the Bible..." I also reinforced over and over that God's desire for her is for her to know the Bible herself. Anyway...it was an awesome weekend....thanks for listening to me ramble....let me know your thoughts...I value all of your insight!!! | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 403 Registered: 7-2003 |
Dd, though I've posted this many times before in more verbose modes, be careful with the "rewards" aspect of God. I have a retarded child and lots of people have said wonderfully well-meaning platitudes, but sometimes bad happens to people that they don't "deserve" and good happens to people who may not "deserve" it. There are certainly consequences to actions and I strongly agree with what you're saying there, but it will do a real damper to her self-esteem if she walks into a situation some day like mine and begins to wonder what she has done to "deserve" this from God. Somehow we need to learn to do right not merely because of the consequences of not, but because it is the "right" thing to do. It is very complex and how you impart this to a young teenager I have no idea. But I know the battles of thinking I somehow earn God's favor and his cursings. As with Job, sometimes God allows things that we never get a reason for and we certainly didn't "deserve". Differentiate between choice and chance is all I'm suggesting. The car accident you describe is more likely chance and consequences to someone's behavior (driving ability). God bless you for taking such a step with your child. I hope it will open the door to many more conversations as you teach this young girl becoming a young woman. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 461 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dd, I agree with Melissa. Consequences? Yes. But God wastes nothing that happens to us, and He redeems everything we submit to Him. Dr. Dobson has a Nazarene background; they're quite a legal, law-bound church, and I suspect some of his understandings come from that strict Nazarene background. (In fact, he really sees nothing wrong with SDAs.) Doug, thank you for quoting that passage re: EGW and her vinegar addiction. I've wondered for quite some time now exatly what that "vinegar" was. The precursor to vinegar is wine--I've wondered if perhaps Ellen had an alcohol addiction as opposed to a vinegar addiction. I've certainly never heard of anyone else having an addiciton to vinegar that left them sick for weeks upon withdrawal. (For that matter, I've never heard of anyone desiring to ingest enough vinegar to make them "addicted"--and can one really become addicted to acetic acid? I have my doubts...) Colleen | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 38 Registered: 7-2004 |
Melissa and Colleen, In my haste I missed a sentence..We do have consequences from our choices..but sometimes things happen that we have no control over and praise God He does work for our good in all things...and I totally agree that we should be doing the right thing because it is the right thing as opposed to doing what is right to avoid the consequence. I had never really listened to Dr. Dobson in great length before. Many of the things he said I agreed with totally. But, I could hear a great deal of legalism that made me stop the tape and share my opinions and back them up with Bible texts. The greatest benefit of Dr. Dobson's program is that it opens the avenue of communications. We talked about many different issues that I would not have thought to discuss except that I was given the perfect opportunity. Thanks, you guys, I will discuss this further with her to make sure my words said what I feel and what I meant. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 466 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dd, I didn't mean to suggest Dobson's materials might not be good or perhaps shouldn't be used. I really think he has an awesome ministry, and I like most of his publications. (His book on raising boys is really good!) My comments were only for the purpose of addressing the legalistic hint you heard. I really do think Dobson has done a great service for all of us! Colleen | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 39 Registered: 7-2004 |
Oh, I know Colleen...I wasn't defending him. What I have come to decide I acutally "like" about Dobson's legalism is it gives me an avenue to show my daughter what legalism is. What it sounds like...what it means (if all our efforts finally paid off and we could keep the 10 commandments...why did God have to send Jesus to die? Jesus gave us an even better picture of what the 10 commandments are - pointing her to Matt. 5,6,7). Rather than just teaching the message of the Gospel, I can point out examples of living without Grace. If for nothing else but to spare my own children the unfulfilling life of legalism, I am grateful for my SDA "baggage". Does that make sense? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 469 Registered: 12-2003 |
Absolutely! I often realize how thankful I am that I grew up Adventist because the New Covenant seems even more astonishing and freeing than it seems to be to many of my Christian friends--and I know they, too, are grateful for the cross and for Jesus! Colleen |
