| Author | Message | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 80 Registered: 5-2004 |
I frequent ClubAdventist. I get a lot of flack for my views pubicly, but a lot of people email me privately and ask for prayer, agree with me, or ask for further info etc. Anyway. I recently decided to sing off for good because I didn't want to start paying for a membership, but someone heard I was leaving, and paid it for me. So I continue to go there, although, like I say, I get a lot of heat for challenging their views. But today, i felt really burdened to all-out challenge the perception so many there have of EGW. Half the people there seem to displace the Bible fully with her writings, and the other half tend to see her as a "harmless good-hearted writer." Today, I all-out told them whey I think her stuff is dangerous. So I am sure to "catch heck" for it. But I am praying that maybe it will niggle into a few people's minds at the same time, that maybe it will make someone question their stance. May God wake us ALL up, may He bring us into the full realization that having anything less than total dependence on Christ is like asking for failure, in Kingdom terms!! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 496 Registered: 12-2003 |
Amen, Tanya. I talked with another person yesterday who considers herself to be essentially former Adventist and born again, although she's never officially left and still visits various churches (SDA) because of family ties. She considers herself born again (I believe she is), but she engaged in a long discussion of why she believes God will, in the end, save everybody. Her argument is a bit convoluted, but part of its core is that all died in Adam, and in Christ all are made alive. Since we didn't have a choice about dying in Adam, our choice can't possibly keep up from being saved. God's character is impugned if we say he'll not save some because of their flawed human decision. I felt that old familiar sinking feeling, like I have to ignore half the Bible in order to make a case for this argument. When I countered with various statements such as Christ's "Depart from me; I never knew you," and the second resurrection in Revelation where people are raised to eternal punishment, she acknowledged that God has not clearly explained everything because He wants us to feel urgent about knowing Him. Further, she acknowledged that some statements seem contradictory, but the certainty of universal reconciliation will triumph in the end. In reviewing the conversation, I'm struck again that one of the legacies of Adventism is not seeing the Bible as the inerrant word of God to be taken at face value and studied as a whole, praying for God to reveal the paradoxes and to explain the truths He wants us to know. Further, if one does not become involved in a Bible teaching church where he hears the word of God taught and studied over a period of time, there's never any input that's not Adventist-tainted. It's vital for people to leave their Adventist circles after they discover the teachings are false, because there are so many assumptions and faulty study patterns that influence one's Bible reading. I do pray for people to fully discover the awsome freedom and blessing of being able to read the entire Bible and embrace the truth and the REAL God who reveals Himself there! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 350 Registered: 3-2004 |
Colleen, I am so glad you wrote above that one should leave their SDA circle after discovering the false teachings. At times I wanted to go back and visit my SS class, but God has put it in my head, not to do that. I am so thankful for that. I have a wonderful church and Bible teacher and class and have made some wonderful friends. Diana | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 353 Registered: 3-2004 |
Sorry Tanya, I forgot you. What is ClubAdventist? God must be leading you to challenge the folks there. Especially if they are all SDA. Wow, what a challenge. God gives each of us our skills and talents and you are using yours to uplift God. I pray that someone will get the truth and start searching for it. God is awesome. Diana | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 772 Registered: 11-2002 |
What is Club Adventist? Do tey really charge a membership fee? Do Adventists really believe everyone will be saved into etermal life? If so, then how come they give the formers such a hard tme with their constant urging for the formers to come back to the truth? Also, if they believe everyone will be saved then how do they reconcile that to their belief of 666 and everyone who ets this mark has the seal of doom upon them? | ||
| Dane Registered user Username: Dane Post Number: 16 Registered: 4-2004 |
My wife and I have been gone from SDA so long that we've lost track of most of the internal church struggles. When I read Dale Ratzlaf's "Cultic Doctrine . . .", I was saddened to find the "liberal wing" of SDA had adopted the heretical idea of Universal Salvation. Does anyone know how widespread this belief is today among SDA's? I can't say I was really surprised that some SDA's have gone that direction. SDA has never had a proper view of Biblical authority. Dane | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 82 Registered: 5-2004 |
About Clubadventist: Clubadventist is a very active SDA internet board. The membership fee is about $30 per year, but they allow new people a couple "free" months before they start asking for the fees to be paid. They aren't officially sponsored by the SDA church, I don't think. Basically, they discuss all things SDA, from culture and music, to world events and theology, to prayer etc. Many of the people on the site are quite conservative... The almost deify EGW, and they preach down to others on a regular basis. One guy is extremely knowlegeable about the New Covenant, and dismisses EGW entirely as a prophet. He doesn't believe the Torah, Sabbath or any other law, to be binding for the New Covenant Christian. But eh calls himself a "cultural SDA". He is in his 60s, and he doesn't want to extricate himself form his SDA ties, so he just puts up with the heat he gets for his views. (which is often a considerable amount of heat.) Many of the SDAs there have no idea of how the world functions outside their SDA sphere, and they don't know the Bible... They don't know what EGW taught, they only know the prooftexts they have been spoonfed. There are also quite a few disillusioned SDAs who find it an anonymous place to "get off their chest" their theological and spiritual disillusionments with the church. And there are several evangelical SDAs who politely disagree with some of my theology, but wholeheartedly agree with my approach and spiritual emphasis, and invite me back time and time again. (I think that is who paid for my membership.) I really like to listen to people, understand their point of view, and empathize even while boldly disagreeing with them. So I find it kind of fun to frequent the site. I would welcome anyone else to join me, if you feel up to it. (clubadventist.com) About Universal salvation: I know a lot of different SDAs from a lot of different ends of the SDA theological spectrum, and I don't personally know anyone who teaches "Universal Salvation". In fact, on the CARM boards, the SDAs occasionally argue this point with a few non-SDAs who actually do hold this view. (I think they call it "salvation by election, that God elects you to be saved, an extension of the idea of pre-destination). But it doesn't suprise me that an SDA who is trying to figure out how to make SDA theology work to save any person at all, might find the idea of universal salvation appealing. I'll have to ask around and see what I can find out. (THe only person i know who really pushes this idea of universal salvation, interestingly enough, is a former SDA. ) | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 83 Registered: 5-2004 |
While on the subject of Clubadventist, I'd like to ask you for prayer for a woman, I'll call her B. She is a devout SDA, to my knowledge doesn't even question any of the beliefs. But she frequents this site, and is quite unhappy with the response she gets when she asks for support and prayer. (she is a stay-at-home mom, and really gets frustrated with her kids.) So I started chatting with her, and praying with her, and I found out that my husband actually went to an academy with her husband. Anyway, she has stopped going to the site because no one else responded positively to her, and has started frequenting a parenting site where some Wiccan ladies have at least sympathized with her and offered support. This is not a step up! B. has my phone number, and we talk on the phone about once a week, and I am praying about what God wants me to do with this relationship. Pray with me about her? She needs a friend, she needs a closer relationship with God, and she needs some support! | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 84 Registered: 5-2004 |
Clarification, B used to frequent Clubadventist, NOT this site. She doesn't know about this site, the FA site.... (didnt want anyone to get confused about that.) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 358 Registered: 3-2004 |
Tealeaves, I have added your friend to my prayer list. Going to the Wiccan site is not a step up, as you said. God is taking care of her and you and will lead you as you befriend her. Diana | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 85 Registered: 5-2004 |
I find it interesting, in a sad, disappointing sort of way, that she has found more compassion and support from Wiccans than she has from her own life-long church. It reminds me of the song: "If we are the Body, why aren't our arms reaching, why aren't our hands healing...." etc. Our job as Christians (even for SDAs ) is to love each other. if we aren't doing that, then what the heck ARE we doing? | ||
| Doug_s Registered user Username: Doug_s Post Number: 46 Registered: 7-2004 |
Tealeaves, That is a major reason for us leaving SDA. It's what drove us to our bible. We saw the Holy Spirit clearly displayed in the lives of others outside the SDA world and thought "what's wrong with this picture?". I communicated with Greg Taylor (former SDA pastor) for a while via email and one thing he told me was he thought that SDA's are so worn out from trying to keep the law there's no energy left for compassion towards one another. I say Amen to that. Doug | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 99 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hi Tealeaves, I will be praying for your friend. Are her children preschool age? Here is the website for MOPS. "Mothers of Preschoolers." http://www.gospelcom.net/mops/ I urged my sister to find a mops group close to her years ago. Finally, I got on line, and found a group that meets in her city at a church close by. I checked the church's website also to see what they were all about. I sent her the telephone numbers and the address. It has been such a blessing for her to have this Christian fellowship and support. They asked her how she found them and she said "My sister, who lives in Maryland (3000 miles away), found out about them." When I hear the song you spoke of on the radio, it brings tears to my eyes. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 360 Registered: 3-2004 |
Doug, I tend to agree with you about the SDA's are worn out trying to keep the law that they have no energy to be compassionate to others. At the SDA church I last attended in VA one on the members told a good friend of mine to tell me to quit complaining. I was only asking for prayers for me and my son and my job. I have recognized that lack for a long time now. God is Awesome. Diana | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 86 Registered: 5-2004 |
I heard someone say something I found insightful the other day. They said if we, as Christians, start loving the way we ought to, things WILL get messy, life WILL get complicated. Because you will attract broken people, and broken people bleed on you. It is so much easier for us to stay safely in our own box and wish everyone well, than it is to reach out to thers and risk them using us, or hurting us, or stealing away our precious time. And it is easy for us to point fingers at the churches who do even worse at loving others, and feel at least "better than them," (ouch! I have been guilty of this!) But lately, God has convicted me of this, and when i see the unloving, unbending attitudes coming out of the SDA church, it instead sends me to my knees on their behalf, on to ask God to make my life radically and obviously His. that doesn't mean we shouldn't speak out against wrong doctrine, by any stretch of the imagination! And I think it is good for us to get together here and support each other as we deal with the fallout and disappointment of standing in the shadow of the SDA church. -- I just wanted to share some of the thoughts I have had on how I am convicted that we should be responding to our experience with a cold, harsh church. And realistically, the Christian church at large isn't "stellar" at being the loving body of Christ on earth either, so I think we really need to learn from that, and start asking God to make those changes in OUR lives as well. Lord, use my house, use my heart, use my family, it is YOURS for the taking... help my life to glorify You, that people would see You in me, and not me myself, when they look at us. Make us the Body that You want us to be, even if that means that people "bleed on us". I say "yes" ahead of time, not matter what it is that you have for me to do! -tanya- | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 75 Registered: 6-2004 |
I guess that the SDA's are trying so hard to "earn" favor and blessings from God that they will step on anyone else who dares to get in the way. Talk about not seeing the forrest for too many trees are in the way. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 361 Registered: 3-2004 |
Tanya, I really like what you said above. It is something we studied in our Bible class at church Sunday morning. We, as Christians, are created for community, to be together, to encourage each other, to help and pray for each other and even to hold each other accountable, especially when it comes to teaching the Bible truth. One thing I did not realize is that we are relational beings and that God is relational by definition of His very existence. Jesus chose 12 disciples(relationships) to teach His message so that they could teach others. I cannot think of one who went out on his own, except Philip, to teach the gospel. I wish I could type each weekly lesson on here some where. I am learning so much about my relationship with God and with others. We, as humans, are not perfect, but God does want us to progress in our relationship with Him and others. I know I will make mistakes and screw up every so often just by virtue of the fact that I am human. But God is there to pick me up and dust me off and help me on my way again. Pw, I had forgotten all about the SDA doctrine about having to be perfect. Now I can see why so many are confused and not sure of God and their relationship with him and as you say they will step on anyone who dares get in the way. That is very sad. I do pray for them. We do have an awesome God. Diana | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 77 Registered: 6-2004 |
Even though it's been over 17 years since I left the SDA, it's really a flashback when I recall all the issues surrounding what I was exposed to back then. It wasn't obvious as it is now, but these people really fear God in a way that makes him seem like a tyrant who is just waiting for you to mess up and punish you for your mistakes. How could anyone love God if that was his nature? I really believe this was the same type of thinking Jesus had to correct among the Pharisees of his day and the people who were misled into these beliefs. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 20 Registered: 7-2004 |
Oh, what a mind storm your comments have created in me. Praise God for the Gospel that lets us ALL know that we are ALL in need of Grace, and that we can ALL lay claim to that Grace through Jesus Christ, our only source of imputed righteousness. I remember trying to be righteous. I was never very good at it because somewhere in the back of my mind I knew that I was to be held to a higher measure that simply comparing myself to the "righteous" people around me. When you have to come up with at least some components of your own righteousness it can put you into a contest frame of mind. What that means is that you want to be the best at being righteous, so you secretly hope for your fellow church members to be less able at it than you are. You will see that attitude in a couple of weeks at a physical contest known as the Olympics. Everyone there will want to do their personal best, and they will deep inside be hoping those they are competing with will not be as successful at it as they personally are. Trying to be good enough to be good enough for God was a Herculean effort, as I recall. Jesus is good enough for God, and he's been willing to give that cloak of goodness to me. Outrageous love, unfathomable gift. No competition because he is willing to give it to you, and anyone else who will accept it. Amazingly simple. Humanly unreasonable. That's the reason for all of the religious tension that has been around since the Garden of Eden. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 777 Registered: 11-2002 |
Quit complaining! And, this was the response you got when asking for prayer! That is very sad. Have you ever noticed is misspelled SDA spells "sad"? |
