| Author | Message | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 62 Registered: 6-2004 |
I found this regarding the coming death of the King of Babylon in Isaiah 14:9-11: "The grave below is all astir to meet you at your coming, it rouses the SPIRITS OF THE DEPARTED TO GREET YOU. All those who were leaders in the world, it makes them rise from their thrones-all those who were kings over the nations. They will respond, they will say to you "You have become weak like we are, you have become like us. All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps, maggots are spread out beneath you & worms cover you." This is some good ammo for the state of the dead issue if it ever comes up. It clearly says even in the Old Testament that our spirits live on and are aware of what is going on even after the body dies. I found this to be helpful in my own research. | ||
| Ladylittle Registered user Username: Ladylittle Post Number: 30 Registered: 4-2004 |
That's quite a text! Hadn't noticed the part about the spirits there before. I'm going to have to do some study on that one! | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 63 Registered: 6-2004 |
I know! It's amazing what SDA's skip over when they want you to think that after we die we cease to exist. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 761 Registered: 11-2002 |
I can't pass this up. I just put on a Grateful Dead c.d. to blast while I play with my Internet machine. Cool. I l-o-v-e the Grateful Dead. There's some totally spun person passing out literature about the impending Armaggedon and the end of the world because he says the Grateful Dead fullfills Bible prophecy about false christs because of their song, "A Friend of the Devil is a Friend Of Mine". Now, that's totally loony! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 478 Registered: 12-2003 |
Good point, Pw. I've been thinking a lot lately, because of our local Bible study, etc., about the fact that the belief in spirit=breath is perhaps the foundational heresy of Adventism. That belief affects how we view sin, salvation, and the Savior. Spirit=breath means that sin is genetic and physical, not literally a dead/separated spirit that is doomed to death even while the body is physically alive. Spirit=breath also means that Jesus really was no different than we are when He was born a human baby. Because he was Mary's son, then He was born with the same "propensities" to sin we are. If genetic inheritance is how we "get" sin and are doomed to death, then Jesus really was no different from us. He, like we, would have been born with no literal spirit except His breath. If spirit=breath, then the salvation we need is an antidote to our lusts and bad behavior, because our bodies and our breath is all we are. On the other hand, if spirit=a real part of me that can know God and exist in eternity, then everything changes. Sin is not just genetic; it's literally a disconnected spirit separated from God. We are quite literally dead in our physically living bodies when we are outside of Christ. If spirit=a real part of me that can be dead (separated from God) or alive (reconciled to God through Jesus' blood), then salvation is not just an antidote to my defective genes. It's literally bringing my spirit alive through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and connecting me eternally to God. If spirit=a real part of a person that can know God, then Jesus' birth IS different from mine. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit; He was born with a living spirit, while every other human ever born emerged with a dead spirit. His genetic material is a moot point--as is mine. Jesus didn't need a new birth; He was born LIVING! That's what qualifies Him to be my Savior! If spirit=a part of me that can know God, then it is something real that is not physical nor even intellectual; it is spirit. It can grow and change and be made alive in Christ, or it can become increasingly sinful and ugly if one refuses to surrender to Jesus, opening his spirit instead to evil. Wow! Praise God for revealing Himself to us! Colleen | ||
| Hallanvaara Registered user Username: Hallanvaara Post Number: 74 Registered: 1-2004 |
Colleen, was it you in topic "soul sleep" said that before Christ there might have been a soul sleep and when Christ died He broke the gates of death and everything changed? Well, 1.Peter 3. 18-20 says about Christ who put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit preached to "spirits in prison" who didn¥t obey God and died in flood. This is quite confusing sentence. I came to this conclusion that before Christ there were soul sleep and Christ at His death came alive in spirit as Peter said and woke up those sleeping souls. He preached to those spirits and the new situation that what had happened now and it¥s eternal consequences. Or as he said the spirits were in prison already and so also awake. Because Christ entered in Hades He preached about the new situation. I don¥t see that nobody anyway can repent in Hades and accept salvation. That don¥t Peter say either. But this part of Bible proves again that spirits have some kind of consciouness after death. But very confunsing it still is. Any further suggestions and conclusions? Tuija PS. I put this here because the "soul sleep" thread is so down below others now. Funny though almost every thread handles someway "soul sleep". Very puzzling issue indeed! | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 66 Registered: 6-2004 |
Oh yeah...1 Peter 3:18-20 is a really unique scripture. Of course everyone has their own interpretation of what it means, just like the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Spirits in prison does sound like a place much like Abraham's bosom or paradise. I'm no scholar on the subject, but I'm sure these "holding places" were what was required prior Christs resurrection which set the captives free. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 763 Registered: 11-2002 |
I was taught in SDA schools and classes that Jesus was fully human and since He overcme sin then He is our example and we too should be able to overcome sin. The fact that He had no sin is what transformed Him into The Christ. I was led to believe that Jesus was not the savior at his birth, that He had to rise up and defeat sin first. Of course, this is contary to the Christmas story which says, "...unto us, this day a Savior is born". I think a lot of these totally errant SDA doctrines got in place because of the intense hostility toward the Catholic church and if the Catholic church believes it then the SDA church will say it is wrong no matter what and if the Catholic church teaches something is wrong then the SDA church will say it is right. An example is abortion. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 482 Registered: 12-2003 |
Tuija, I don't remember saying that, but I might have said something similar. I really don't think we know exactly what happened to people before Christ. I do believe their spirits were kept waiting somewhere--the parable of Lazarus and the rich man indicates that. Regarding the 1 Peter text, no one really knows exactly what it means. We just aren't given enough information. Many speculate (and I think they make a lot of sense) that the "souls in prison" are the demons who have been cast out of heaven. They are waiting for their final judgment in the lake of fire. After His death, the thought is, Jesus' living spirit went to them and declared His victory over death, sealing their eternal fate. (There had been the wish that He might somehow actually die, I presume.) The dead can't choose again; His preaching could not have been for repentance. It had to be some declaration of truth, of the power of the gospel, or the final sentence cast on evil. But we can't be too dogmatic about it, because the Bible just isn't clear! Colleen | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 68 Registered: 6-2004 |
I think that's where people tend to get frustrated in their walk is when they don't have an answer for everything in the Bible. The "spirits in prison" is a perfect example. Sometimes it's ok to say "I don't know" about a particular subject. We are not the authority on our faith, Jesus is. | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 96 Registered: 3-2004 |
Unfortunately, as SDA I didn't feel I could ever say "I don't know." It's really freeing to let God be God. Praise God... | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 97 Registered: 2-2003 |
This is one of my favorite songs from Steven Curtis Chapman's "Declaration" CD: "GOD IS GOD" And the pain falls like a curtain On the things I once called certain And I have to say the words I fear the most I just donít know And the questions without answers Come and paralyze the dancer So I stand here on the stage afraid to move Afraid to fall, oh, but fall I must On this truth that my life has been formed from the dust CHORUS: God is God and I am not I can only see a part of the picture Heís painting God is God and I am man So Iíll never understand it all For only God is God And the sky begins to thunder And Iím filled with awe and wonder ëTil the only burning question that remains Is who am I Can I form a single mountain Take the stars in hand and count them Can I even take a breath without God giving it to me He is first and last before all that has been Beyond all that will pass CHORUS Oh, how great are the riches of His wisdom and knowledge How unsearchable for to Him and through Him and from Him are all things So let us worship before the throne Of the One who is worthy of worship alone God is God and I am not I can only see a part of the picture Heís painting God is God and I am man So Iíll never understand it all For only God is God | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 70 Registered: 6-2004 |
Great lyrics. I think it would do well to remind each of us that we don't have all the answers because as Paul said "We only see through a darkened glass", meaning we only are getting a partial view of the big plan and our minds would not...or could not, conceive it all due to our limitations. | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 618 Registered: 7-2000 |
Thank-you, Leigh, for posting the inspiring words of that song...a good note to start my morning on! cindy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 490 Registered: 12-2003 |
Leigh, thank you for sharing those great lyrics. How inspiring. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 343 Registered: 3-2004 |
This reminds me of the story of the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man ended up in hell and Lazarus in heaven. So that tells me there were souls that were awake in heaven and hell when Christ was on the earth. Leigh, thank you for the words of the song. Can I buy in CD? Who sang it? Diana | ||
| Magpie Registered user Username: Magpie Post Number: 1 Registered: 7-2004 |
P.W. Just one question. I am new here. I am not nor never have been SDA. But I have close reletives who have become so. My question is, what version of the bible did the passage in Isaiah come from? And what version do the adventist use mostly? Love this board, I am learning a lot here. Magpie | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 100 Registered: 3-2004 |
Welcome Magpie. So glad you have been enjoying learning. I'm not pw, but he was quoting NIV. I haven't found SDAs to be stuck on one single Bible version, except for when they are "prooftexting" and then they will still pick and choose what works best for their purpose of the moment. You will also hear a lot on this forum about "The Clear Word" which is supposedly a devotional study which combines the Bible with the thoughts of EGW, which ends up changing the meaning in quite a few places. Many SDAs consider it to be a Bible. Praise God... | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 770 Registered: 11-2002 |
Deag Magpie, Welcome, it is great to have another new member. Where my mom attends the pew Bibles are NIV. However, many members bring their own Bibles. I see a lot of Clear Word editions and one lady always brings a New American Standard. Where I attend at a local Lutheran their is 100% consistancy with what Bible is used during the service. That is beause in the Lutheran there is a lot of public, in unison readings. For these we use the pew Bibles, although several people still bring thir own versions hopig to catch someone after church who would like to stay for an imprompto Bible study. The SDA generally do not have group readings and the few times they do they have prepared passages printed in the back of their hymmal for this purpose. When I was a lttle girl the SDA still had the congreation recite the Our Father at the close of the service. They don't do this anymore. Awhile back I asked someone how come they stopped and I was told it is not right to pray in repition, that our prayers should come from te heart and not be prepared prayers. My dad taught me the Our Father in German when I was a little girl and at night before going to bed I'd pray it in German. Maybe that is one thing I like so much about the Lutheran. At every Lutheran meeting the congreation recites the Our Father (only where I attend it's said in English, oh, well, can't have everything!). Generally though, as Prisegod said above SDA's will use whatever translation suits their needs best at the time for whatever topic they are currently discussing. | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 621 Registered: 7-2000 |
Welcome also, Magpie! When, how, & why!? did your relatives become Adventists? :-) grace always, cindy |
