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Tealeaves
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Username: Tealeaves

Post Number: 100
Registered: 5-2004
Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 3:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was over at Clubadventist, where I normally try to offer gentle suggestions, and bring up Scripture, and point to CHrist. But today I was them tooting their horns over the fact that they choose to follow the "everlasting covenant" which they think refers to Old + New, but is actually in reference to the Old Covenant, which promises only DEATH to those under it! I lost it today, and decided to just tell them straight out waht I was thinking. I posted the following:

"I literally want to cry when I see SDA Christians do absolutely everything in their power to DENY Christ, to DENY that Christ changed anything, and cling to the Old Covenant and it's rules, striving to be perfect under an impossible burden, rather than embracing the Son of God for the awesome gift of salvation that HE ALONE could bring us by HIS perfection, which NO man can attain but by completely free gift.
If CHrist didn't give us a new covenant to live under as explained in the New Testament, then what in the world do you think He died for?
If it was to help us be perfect in our own right, then it FAILED, because NO ONE is PERFECT.
You get salvation by gift, you get righteousness by pure undeserved credit, and you get it all under the New Covenant of CHrist or not at all. You can't say you love CHrist and ignore the Covenant He presented us with.
God created us to be His people, and and his people messed up and made bad decisions. He then made a covenant for the Jews, which He says was supposed to allow them access to God that their own sins didn't permit. but guess what? The people messed that up too.
So He sent His Son to do something for us that we obviously could not do for ourselves. and He gave us a New Covenant, under which all we have to do is BELIEVE in Him. How could we mess that up, right? THis Covenant WORKS for the believer.
The Old Covenant does stand today, it stands in Judgment over those NOT IN CHRIST. You want to choose that covenant? Be my guest! The New Testament clearly tells us that it brings DEATH. So choose death, or choose CHrist.
I choose Christ.
Admittedly I am in a bad mood today, which could account for some of my bluntness, but I am also sick to death of feeling like I am hitting my head against a wall talking to legalists who want to cling to an old and aging law instead of the CHrist who fulfilled it and deserves the WHOLE credit for such.
My God loved me enough to send His Son to die for me and I intend to give Him all the credit for that. I intend to live fully under the covenant He made with me, for our time. I give my life to Him, I give Him my spirit, my time, my money, my family, all I have... which is only logical since He is the only reason I have anything!
I don't stand for the "freedom to sin", I stand for the freedom FROM sin. I don't stand for the law, I stand for my Saviour who fulfills it. I don't place my hope in a law that the Scriptures tell me brings death, I place my hope in the Son of God who freed me from death's chains and gives me true life through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.... All of which is only possible through the New Covenant of CHrist.
So which covenant do you choose, the ones that stands for all time in judgment over every person under it? Or the Covenant that offers the free gift of salvation to those who choose to believe? "

I may have burned my ships there, because they label people who deal bluntly as "evil distractors" and get defensive. But between the obvious oblivion there, and that of my in-laws, and my current houseguests (old SDA college buddies of my husband,) I am going stir-crazy. It literally hurts my heart.

I need a little renewal today! Maybe I'll go spend some time in prayer. Thanks for letting me vent.
-tanya-
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 390
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 6:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It sounds like you have had a rough day. God remembers that "we are made of dust". In other words we are human. There is a text, cannot remember where it is that goes, "all things work together for good to them that love God."
I really understand about hitting the head against a brick wall. God is in charge, no matter what. You have planted a seed and God will make sure it grows. That is not our responsibility.
Diana
Dane
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Username: Dane

Post Number: 23
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 6:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Reading Tanya's post above reminded me of conversations I have had with current SDA's. I have not lurked at Clubadventist and probably won't. I've read some of the forum at CARM though and the debates there are typical of the conversations I have had personally. Long ago I concluded that the average SDA is either unwilling or afraid to look objectively at anything that disagrees with dogma.

I think that many of us here on the forum regard SDA as either a cult or a close relative. One of the primary characteristics of a cult member is the unwillingness to consider anyting outside of their system.

I have found that discussing differences with SDA's is very like talking with Jehovah's Witnesses or LDS. Their minds are solidly locked for the most part.

In my own experience, I know that if I had encountered certain info about SDA ten or even five years eariler than I did I would not have listened. The Spirit had to prepare my heart first.
Dane
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 391
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 7:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dane,
My son did approach me about 11 years ago with things that he had learned from an SDA pastor who eventually left the SDA church. The only difference was I listened to him though I did not understand what he was saying. I did not argue or try to tell him the SDAs were correct. I was also sick at the time with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. So I was not clear with any thinking. God was preparing my heart for this winter when I found our about the plagiarism of EGW.
Diana
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 800
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 7:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tanya, Your post to the SDA's was very nicely stated. I read nothing wrong with it. I have never lurked at Club A. but I read the discussions on CARM and it's just going in circles. About the text that says "all things work together for those who love God", well, that is an often quoted text by SDA's. They say if one really loves God then the person will obey all the Commandments and therefore Sunday-keepers cannot claim that text. And, having been married to a man who had been raised JW and knowing quite intimintely his numerous JW relatives, I frankly don't see much difference between the two religions. Yes, the specifics are way different. However, both are religions of works. Both religions have numerous rules, do's and don't's. Both religions have a policy of accepting new light and the SDA has EGW as a last day prophit and the JW's accept the Watchtower Society as the last day prophet. They both trace their hertiage back to the Millerite movement. Apparently back then the different groups couldn't agree on the second coming date for Jesus to return and one group became the SDA and a different group became the JW. The JW's say though that Jesus retuirned invisability in 1914 and the SDA have the Investagitive Judgement. The JW's have the New World Trnslation of the Scriptures and the SDA has The Clear Word. When it comes down to the nitty-gritty even though the rules are way different the mind-set, attitudes and total devotion to the organization is pretty much the same. SDA's refer to former SDA's as Babylon. The JW's refer to former JW's as apostates. To my way of thinking it's six of one and a half-dozen of the other.
Tealeaves
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Username: Tealeaves

Post Number: 103
Registered: 5-2004
Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 9:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Every once in a while I decide not to go to Clubadventist anymore because I get so fed up with the persistent attitude, but then someone from there always emails me and asks me back. And it surprises me everytime. (in fact, as I stated earlier, someone even paid my dues when I signed off openly one time.) Of course, the people who ask me back are usually NOT the vocal people who argue straight out with me.
It makes me think that there are many SDAs who quietly and secretly question and doubt, and say nothing, but really like to hear what those who boldly disagree have to say. So I supppose I will regroup and head back in a week or two, because the fact that some people ask me back, means that at lest SOMEONE is listening. (either that or they just like to see brawls! ;o)

I don't think I was mean in my outburst, just uncharacteristically blunt. Usually I try out the "kid-gloves" and suggest new ideas and Jesus-centered alternatives, rather than straight-out tell them that they frustrate me.

And about the JWs and the LDSs - YES, talking to them is very much like talking to SDAs. It is scary just how alike they really are! And it is strange to me that they don't seem to mind when I make that comparison, but WATCH OUT if you compare them to a Catholic!
That is another interesting point: anyone ever notice how the SDAs side with the Catholics rather than the Protestants theologically on many of the issues of the Reformation?
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 804
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 10:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, I have noticed that and I have often wondered about it. I am referrig to your comment above of many SDA's agreeing with Catholics on the Refermation. I have some personal theories but I have nothing to base my theories on other than personal opinion. My main theory is that both the SDA and the Catholic religions are very works oriented. Growing up SDA I understood good works as a requirement for salvation. Then when I finily understood grace I found out that the good works Christians do are not because the are trying to earn their way into heaven but rather are the outpouring of their love for Jesus in following the command of Jesus to love our fellow man and of course the Beatitudes.Then I started being observant and I noticed most the Christian outreach programs in my local community are fully staffed by volunteers and fully funded by freewill donations by the folks who truly want to extend this love and care to their fellow man out of humility, out of gratitude in knowing they are saved by the grace of Jesus and not because they have to preform the good works. Much of the Refermation had to do with pennance and indulgences.
Tealeaves
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Username: Tealeaves

Post Number: 105
Registered: 5-2004
Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 10:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know someone that has studied deeply into the comparison between the Catholic and SDA churches, there is a website that points out the similarities in old and current beliefs and trends. I will post the site if I can find it again. Very interesting.
Tealeaves
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Username: Tealeaves

Post Number: 106
Registered: 5-2004
Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 10:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.remnantofgod.org/flash/sda2rcc/sda2rcc-hc.htm
http://www.lightministries.com/SDA/id607.htm

Here are two of the sites that point out the similarities between the SDA church and the RCC church. THe fact that they are both legalistic is prominent, but the fact that their structure (the hierarchy, the separation of laity and clergy etc.) and many actual doctrines are so similar was even more remarkable to me.
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 525
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2004 - 12:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tanya, I actually liked your post above. It was passionate, clear, and you really defended Christ to people who were teaching "doctrines of demons". I guess that phrase is in my mind tonight becaue this morning I attended the monthy systematic theology class Elizabeth Inrig is offering for women at Trinity Church. We're using "Bible Doctrines" by Wayne Grudem (it's a condensation of his large book, "Systematic Theology"). The chapter today was on angels, Satan, and demons, and it walked through all the conclusion we can Biblically draw about these beings based on Scripture.

In his discussion of evil angels, Grudem (and his editor) point out that Paul warned that in the last days people would be deceived and would believe doctrines of demons. Colossians points out that these include rules against marriage and against eating certain foods and clearly calls them doctrines of demons. (What two churches do those two restrictions encompass?)

I am so very thankful that God called me to Himself--and that He called all of us!

Colleen
Doc
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Username: Doc

Post Number: 96
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2004 - 12:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tanya
I did not think your post was offensive, just clear and to the point.
I have given up arguing with cultists for the time being, I just get frustrated. And RCs can be the same as well. I have tried to explain why purgatory is unbiblical, and why Jesus has to be in the centre and focusing on Mary is a distraction, and they just rationalise everything and don't listen, just like SDA, JW and LDS. Keep up the good work if you have the stomach for it.
Thanks for the links on RC vs. SDA - most interesting.
God bless,
Adrian
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b

Post Number: 13
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2004 - 6:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tanya
Those links were even scarier than the SDA church itself! I had almost forgotten that side of EGWism.
Tealeaves
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Username: Tealeaves

Post Number: 107
Registered: 5-2004
Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2004 - 8:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have tried to give up arguing with them, but I keep running into them everywhere I go. And with my husband's entire family being SDA, I kind of want to know as much as I can about their thinking, so that if it ever comes time to really talk with the in-laws about the Bible and Adventism, I will feel "warmed up" on the issues, and yet feel compassion for their confused state.
Thanks for saying my post wasn't offensive... it did, however, offend the sensitive individuals who were involved in the conversation at the time, so I have apologized for my bluntness, while standing by the content. -- Admitting that I was wrong in any way, and apologizing to them, is as much as a witness to them as any argument I could give, because they just don't like to say they were wrong for one minute!

Raven
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Username: Raven

Post Number: 8
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2004 - 9:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In response to Dane's post that said:

"Long ago I concluded that the average SDA is either unwilling or afraid to look objectively at anything that disagrees with dogma."

that is a very true and frustrating statement. About a week ago, I finally informed my family about the fact that we're leaving the SDA church and gave a very lengthy list of reasons. One response was "If your mind is made up, it will be very hard to follow God's leading." Excuse me, but that could very easily be turned around! I'm the one that searched all sides of the SDA issues to figure out what is true! The person who said that to me, has their mind so made up that SDA is correct, that they would never consider investigating anything! Needless to say, that really bothered me.

By the way, this Sunday is the first Sunday since our announcement, to be able to freely look for a new church. I know many of you have been through or are going through the same process. Please keep us in your prayers that this will take as short of time as possible, especially since we have kids who are anxious to be settled somewhere.
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 807
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2004 - 9:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Raven, How exciting for you and your family to now be free to seek Him! Your kin say the same things on here that a lot of us on here have heard from our own in.It's frustrating dealing with the SDA's in my life because they often will ask me point blank why I am not SDA and when I actually begin explaining to them why, well, to put it kindly, I have actually gotten yelled at with some extremely unkind words. I will even suggest we get out our Bibles so I can explain with The Word to show why and I get told off. As far as Colleen's comment above about during the end times being misguided by demons and untruth, I have often thought that 1 and 2 Timothy were especially written for me. I especially notice 1 Timothy 3-4, which says, "They forbid marriage anddemand abstinance from food, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing to be rejectd, provided it is received with thanksgving." I especially pick up on this passage because in the early development EGW really strongly urged the faithful to not marry and especially to not have children because there was too much work to get done so Jesus could come on time. 1 and 2 Timothy always hit me like a brick in the face.
Cindy
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Username: Cindy

Post Number: 639
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2004 - 10:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Raven, My prayers are with you...

Remember, you may need patience in finding the best church family to join after leaving Adventism!

Just relax and praise God while you investigate the doctrinal beliefs of the church you attend. (I'm sure it may be even more difficult when you have small children that want to go to a specific church for friends...I forget what your children's ages are!)

We attended a "Foursquare" for 2 years and it was right for us at that time...we could almost anoynomously attend, it was so large (6,000). The sermons were helpful and the worship music inspiring.

Eventually we knew we could not join as members after conversations with the pastor concerning the "tithing" requirement. Also, the belief in "tongues", although not spoken in the main weekend services, was promoted as a necessity for Christans.

We've gone to various other denominational and non-denominational churches the past year or so. Since May we have been attending a church that comes closest to our beliefs and has a good Sunday School class. (And the pastor specifically talks of tithing as Old Covenant!!) We have met many Christ-centered-New-Covenant believers there.

Keep your courage and assurance based in Jesus always, despite what you might encounter. There's a lot of craziness out there!

But also a lot of basic Christian love. The sense of freemdom that comes by following and "resting" in Jesus alone, 24/7, is a relief!

I'm just happy to be a part of, as C.S.Lewis writes, "mere Christianity".

grace always,
cindy`
Raven
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Username: Raven

Post Number: 9
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2004 - 11:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the words of encouragement Susan and Cindy! We actually have tried Sunday churches 4 different times over the last 8 months, but now we can concentrate on trying something every week. It has been discouraging, because while we know there is no perfectly correct church, there are many things we want to steer clear of because of our SDA past. At first we were trying the large churches so we wouldn't be bombarded with questions of where we're from and what brings us there. But, we didn't like how lost in the crowd we felt and there were no greetings at all. Our daughters are going into the 5th and 6th grades, and they are both feeling shy about being shoved into a new situation. However, we are excited about having the freedom to check them all out--and we're trying to convey that to our kids.
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 395
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2004 - 3:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Raven, God will find the church for you, your husband and your children. Just keep praying and being faithful to Him.
Tealeaves, I went and explored the 2 websites you mentioned above. The similarity of the RCC and SDA churches is remarkable. I was surprised and yet I was not, knowing now about the cultish aspects of both. I could not stay on either very long. When I start reading SDA doctrine I get a strange tingling sensation down my spine, as if something is trying to influence me or scare me. So I log off.
Praise God I am no longer involved with the SDA church. God is so awesome.
Diana
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 809
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2004 - 10:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have never really considered myself SDA. I was made to be SDA when I was a kid. I didn't have a choice to the church my parents took me to. Then as a young adult I attended the SDA until around 1984 because I have always had a desire in my heart to search out spiritual truth and until around that time I was still too chicken to bracnh out on my own churchwise, if you know what I mean. However 10 years ago I moved next door to my elderly parents. My dad went with my mom to church nearly every week until several months prior to his death two years ago. Since then I have been taking my mom to the local SDA each week. Not wanting to be a bad daughter and just taking her to church I have always gone in with her and sat through the service and then attending the fellowship afterwards. It's draining on me but I have been the ever faithful daughter and have done this. However, I need your prayers because when I take my mom to church next week and she realizes I am not going to go in with her anymore, well, in my opinion, I am a victum of verbal and emotional abuse from my mom and I totally dread what I am afriad I might hear. Does this make any sense? She would rather I pretend to be SDA, hoping my pretending will somehow fool God than to have me be honest about my convictions. I think she thinks as long as I attend the SDA services with her that I've got God convinced in His understanding that I am SDA, hence on the right track to eternal life. But, today the service was just too much for me. I kept thinking if that preacher doesn't hurry up I'll throw up. I managed to get through the service without getting ill. The minister titled his sermon, "The United States in Prophecy". I wonder if his sermon would have even been legal for the tax exempt status that the church gets from the IRS. We heard that the ACLU and the United for Seperation of Church and State are the only two organizations fighting for our religious freedoms in America today. He mentioned he wants everyone to write letters to our elected polititons urging passing of the religious accomadation act that is soon coming up before the Assembly. This act apparently would make it mandatory that an employer give time off to any employee if the employee says he needs the time off because it is his religious conviction that the time is holy time, therefore he cannot work at that time. He said the time is soon coming when we all will receive either the mark of satan or the Seal of God and we soon will have to choose between having the seal of the Sabbath through Jesus or the mark of satan. The sermon went downhill from there. That was the only reference to Jesus in his hour and a half talk. So, I caught up with the minister after the sermon and got him alone. I said to him. "Now if this bill passes and I am working and my employeer is Adventist and I need to come to work late on Ash Wednesday because I have to go to church to get the imposition of ashes, no matter the inconveinence this causes my employeer he should be forced by congress legistation to give me that time off?" He responded that Sunday-keepers don't understand Ash Wednesday as holy time as SDA's understand the Sabbath as holy time so my question didn't mean anything. So then I asked him if I was working for a SDA employeer and I needed Good Friday off so I could attend Good Friday services did he think my employeer should have to let me off no matter the inconveinence to his company? I just got the same line-that Sunday-keepers don't have holy time so it wouldn't apply to them but this is important legistation for SDA's. I then got out my copy of the Constitutation (yes, I do keep my Constitutation and Bill of Rights in my purse at all times) and I read him the First Admendment and I told him I didn't see how that legistation was infringing on my freedom of religion. I told him this is America and if I don't like my working stiutation I have the freedom to get another job. He told me Sabbath-keepers (code for SDA's) are being fired from their jobs in unpresented numbers because of their loyality to the Sabbath. I told him I think he's missinformed and I'd research that out. I was totally disgusted with the entire line of weird and unChristian untruth I was being subjected to and I decided right then and there I'm not going back. I just might at this late time in my life be disowned. It has been threatened that I may be disowned if I don't at least fake loyalty to the Sabbath but I just can't stomach it any longer! Please, pray for the Lord's guidence in this matter. Thank-you.
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 528
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2004 - 11:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan, I understand your fear and the dilemma you're in. Remember that Jesus said that anyone who gives up mother, father, brother, sister, houses, or lands for His sake will receive 100 times more AND eternal life! Your mother cannot destroy you; you belong to God. Jesus said we are not to worry about what we will eat or drink or wear, but we are to seek His kingdom and His righteousenss. Our Father knows we have need of all these things, and he will provide what we need as we seek to follow and obey Him.

I'll be praying for you; I believe your are doing a courageous thing that will bring you a great sesne of liberation. Your mother may be very angry, but that's a small thing compared to experiencing the love and freedom of Jesus as you stand for integrity n your life. I'm proud of you, Susan--I understand how hard its been for you to deal with all the trauma in your family recently. Praise God that He is giving you His courage to stop attending and to trust your mother into His hands instead of worrying about keeping her happy yourself. Respecting her does not include attending a church you feel is false. Ask God to help you love her for Him.

With prayers for you,

Colleen

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