| Author | Message | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 16 Registered: 7-2004 |
Ok, I cannot get enough of the spiritual conversation. So here goes. If the comma in Luke was placed in the wrong place, and the thief wasn't in paradise with Christ on that day. That must mean, that his Spirit returned to God, his body to ash, and he soul rests in the grave along with it. If that is the assumption taken, then John 3:16 would loose a certain amount of potency. If the spirit returned and the soul along with the body die or sleep (however you choose to take it), then that would mean that there was a time out in the thief's post death lifetime. Eternal means ongoing forever and ever. But with the scripture in Luke being read as is, then it supports John 3:16 because proves the promise is true. He accpeted Christ as the Son of God, he was granted immediate eternity. Luke might be able to be debatable. But John 3:16 doesn't list any kind of conditions for receiving eternal outside of believing in Jesus Christ. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 129 Registered: 4-2000 |
DEATH AND THE AFTERLIFE In his classic, 315-page book, DEATH AND THE AFTERLIFE, Dr. Robert Morey concludes, "The Scriptures view man as the unique image-bearer of God who, in reflecting unity and diversity, has a material and immaterial side. This invisible or immaterial side of man is called various names such as soul, heart, spirit, and mind. At death, man's two sides are separated, and his conscious mind survives the death of the body and experiences either bliss or torment in the hereafter. This is the consistent picture of the nature of man and the nature of death which is found in the Old Testament as well as the New Testament." This big picture makes sense of the entire Bible. Regarding the thief on the cross, Dr. Morey adds, "Annihilationists have always been troubled by this text. Ignoring the rules of grammar and syntax, they erroneously state that the word "today" should modify Christ's words "I say" instead of referring to the thief's entrance into Paradise. Thus they attempt to translate verse 43 as follows: Verily, I say to you today, you shall be with me in paradise. The whole point of their rearranging the punctuation is to remove the fact that the thief was going to Paradise on that day. Lange points out that it is grammatically "senseless." Meyer calls it an "idle and unmeaning" attempt to avoid the emphasis in the original. Modern commentators such as Lenski do not see any grammatical grounds whatsoever for rearranging the punctuation. In the midst of his suffering, the thief was comforted to know that he would be with Christ in Paradise by the end of that day. The emphasis is on the where (Paradise) and the when (today). Since it is rather obvious that Christ was speaking to the thief on that day and not "yesterday" or "tomorrow," there would be no reason for Christ to state, "I say to you today." Instead, the word "today" modifies when the thief would enter Paradise...What is important for us to consider is that Stephen did not ask the grave to receive him, but Christ, whom he saw in heaven, to receive or take unto himself his spirit or soul. When Stephen said, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit," he used the word dexomai in its aorist middle imperative tense. As A. T. Robinson pointed out, Stephen was urgent and emphatic in his prayer to the heavenly Christ that Jesus would take his spirit into heaven at the very moment. Stephen did not look down at death to an unconscious existence in the grave. Instead, he looked up into heaven itself and asked Christ to take him to be with Him. Lenski comments: That prayer was heard. Stephen's spirit, the immaterial part of his being, left his body and was received by Jesus into the glory and the bliss of heaven, there to await the last day when his body would be raised up to be again united with his soul and to participate in its heavenly joys. Or again, as Calvin stated: This verse clearly testifies that the soul of man is not a vanishing breath, according to the ravings of some madmen, but that it is an essential spirit, and survives death. In Thayer's lexicon (p. 130), we find that dexomai in Acts 7:59 can only be grammatically understood in terms of "receive to thyself in heaven my spirit [author's paraphrase]." After his spirit departed to be with Christ, Stephen's body "fell asleep," awaiting the day of its awakening from the grave." Hopefully, these excerpts from Dr. Morey will be helpful in understanding this important topic. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Doug_s Registered user Username: Doug_s Post Number: 54 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear friends, I'm glad we are having this discussion because it brings out all the arguements to the surface so we can face them. I want you to know that I have heard all the above before and I still consider them as valid and I feel we are not that far apart in our beliefs. Dr. Streifling referred me to Dr. Morey's book and I do intend to purchase it. It seems that Dr. Morey makes no definite distinction between soul and spirit which concerns me because I think scripture is quite clear on that. My goodness, I have so much to say in such a short amount of space. There is no way I can cover all I want to express in one post so I will respond interactively. Colleen, we are not far apart in our understanding of spirit and soul and body. Let me first say that I erroneously posted the following "Today, you will be with me" Can be read "Today, will be with me". I did not intend to place the comma after the word "Today". That was a mistake on my part and for that I apologize as I think maybe that caused some confusion. I intended to place the comma in its traditional position. My point I tried to make was the words would be grammatically correct to say "...,Today will be with me..." instead of "...,Today you will be with me..." There is no "you" in the second half of verse 43, rather it has been inserted to give a different meaning. The word "you" is implied but it doesn't necessarily have to be there. If I make the statement "You will be in my prayers today", are you literally in my prayers? No, it means I'm thinking of you and remembering you in my prayers. This "you" in verse 43 could mean that "the memory of you will be with me in paradise". The context of the two verses is "remember me". Isn't it possible that Jesus is granting the man's request? Isn't it possible that Jesus is saying "Yes I hear you and your request is according to the will of God so I will grant you the desire of your heart." Also, we can not deny the fact that the greek word semeron for "today" carries meaning other than just "today". To be intellectually honest we have to face it square and accept the fact that it also carries a meaning of "what has happened today". That way we can get a full understanding of the context. Let's look at what is being said and it's context and then accept what is proper and best fits the surrounding text. I agree Colleen that the bible says "...into thy hands I commit my Spirit". There's is no doubt that the Spirit that was in Christ that day went to heaven to be with the Father. But really that opens a whole big discussion of which Spirit that was. We know Jesus was full of the Holy Spirit because that is what he was conceived of and that is what he breathed into the disciples in John 20:22. Stephen also was full of the Holy Spirit according to Acts 7:55. In both cases they, Jesus and Stephen, said "...recieve my spirit". The greek word for "my" means "of me", so the "spirit of me" is rendered as well as "my spirit". The Holy Spirit that resided in both Jesus and Stephen was given into the hands of the Father and it took along with it the spirit of Stephen. I believe the Spirit of Jesus was the one and same Spirit as the Holy Spirit. But, the bible says that the soul of Jesus went into hell (hades), Acts 2:31, but was not left there. When we talk about Jesus Christ we talk about the man who is God. And when ever his is referred to in the whole personality sense he is spoken of as a body, soul, and spirit together. Where is Jesus? He's in heaven because he ascended there. He died on the cross and went into the grave. We talk about the Holy Spirit, as a separate personality of the triune, as the one that went into heaven that dark day when Christ died. So the Jesus that was talking that same day to the man on the cross was the same Jesus that went into hell (hades) and rose again three days later, and ascended into heaven 40 days after that. That's when Jesus, our Savior, returned to the Father, in paradise. If one is going to argue that Jesus' Spirit went into heaven that day, as if his spirit was something distinct from the Holy Spirit, then you open a can of worms on the concept of the trinity, which no human brain can comprehend. I beleive his Spirit is/was the one and only eternal Holy Spirit. The same Spirit that brought life back to the dead soul in the grave. Jesus said in Rev 1:18 "I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive..." As for our spirits being dead. The bible does not say that we are born with a dead spirit. The spirit is what keeps us alive and gives us our personality, emotions, cognition. So how can it be dead. We are considered dead because we are born under the curse of death. We are called dead, when we are born of the flesh, because we will die some day not because our spirit is dead. Also, the bible says that even the beasts have a spirit so that can't be a determinant between man and animal. What's up with that? We are born spiritually separated from God but we need that spirit in order to live and in order to communicate with God. It is what makes us capable of seeing God for Who He is. When we do, we acknowledge Him and He comes into our lives and joins His Spirit with ours renewing it daily. The OT has numerous cases of man's spirit being alive and active, even those who are against God. If our spirit is already dead then why do we have to die again spiritually, as in baptism, and be resurrected into our new life in Christ? All we have to do is be risen spiritually from the dead, there is no need to die if we are already dead. And if we are dead spiritually, how can we acknowledge spiritually that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior? No, our spirits are not dead but rather they are under the curse of death just as our bodies are. But when the Holy Spirit comes into our lives and renews and regenerates our spirit by rejoining itself to ours 1 Cor 6:17,1 Cor 12:13, Eph 2:18, Eph 4:4, we then have the eternal life that only comes from God and in whom only the eternal life resides. In John 3:16 it says that belief is what saves us from perishing. It says that God gave the only begotten Son up to what? He gave Him up to die, that is perish. The cross tells us all we need to know. Christ died and his soul went into hell (hades), the grave and the Holy Spirit went to the Father. Christ took our punishment at the cross, the punishment we should have to pay. What was that punishment? Death. If our punishment is eternal separation and torment from God then what does that say Jesus should be doing if he took our punishment for us. He took it for us before we knew him, while we were yet sinners of unbelief. He also took it for those who will never believe. And God was satisfied. His righteous requirement has been met by the blood of His Son. It is that one eternal Spirit that was in Jesus that day on the cross that went to be with the Father. That same Spirit reentered the soul of Jesus that was in the grave and once again gave it life. And it was that same Jesus Christ that ascended into the kingdom of heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father. And it was that same Jesus that said "I will remember you when I enter into my kingdom." The bible says that our spirit is to be preserved in Jesus Christ. That tells me that He is the holder of our spirit until we have received our immortal bodies. He is the tabernacle in heaven made with out hands. He is where our spirits go when we die. His is the everlasting life we have when we receive Him and our spirits are continually renewed by His Holy Spirit. That eternal life is of Him but is in us. He is the tree of Life we are grafted into. The bible says that what God creates he can also destroy, Gen 7:4. And that word "destroy" means to obliterate, wipe out, exterminate. If he can produce it out of nothing He can certainly return it to nothing. The bible says that God was satisfied with Christ's death on the cross. And He died for all mankind. God's righteous requirement for sin has been met with the blood of Christ. Whether we accept it or not, He has paid the penalty for sin. The Eternal One paid the eternal price for sin. Sorry, I didn't mean to ramble on so. I have much much more to say but I will stop here. I expect feedback and I welcome it. Please give me your thoughts. Doug | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 86 Registered: 6-2004 |
When Jesus raised the little girl back to life, it's says her spirit returned...not her breath. I remember an SDA teaching saying that it would have been cruel to pull a person's spirit out of heaven to being her back to earth if we HAVE spirits. Does anyone else recall this agenda? I think it was in one of EGW's books. Also the story of raising Lazarus from the grave, EGW went on about how he had no recollection of the afterlife when asked about it by the people days after his resurrection. How would she have known this, did she interview him about it? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 516 Registered: 12-2003 |
I don't believe we can use the text in Acts 2:31 to prove that Jesus' soul went to hell. Here is what it says in Acts 2:30-31 in the NASB (the most literal modern translation) as Peter is preaching and quoting from David on the day of Pentecost: "And so, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne, he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay." This text is making the point that Jesus was not abandoned to the place of the dead [Hades] nor did his body (which DID die) suffer decay. In other words, He broke the bonds of death. This passage cannot be used to make a point about where Jesus' soul went. It is a passage used to explain that whatever happened after death, Jesus was not abandoned to it. (Technically, a body does begin to decay at death, and Jesus was clearly in the tomb from Friday night to Sunday morning. This passage is not commenting about the chemical reactions in Jesus' body any more than it is commenting on whether or not Jesus' soul went to Hades.) I believe that if we try too hard to break down the parts of man, we end up in some confusion. Many Christians believe man has two vital parts: spirit and body. Others say he has three: spirit, soul, and body. I believe we lose the big picture when we try too hard to break this down. Jesus said we were not to "be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28) Clearly, Jesus sees the soul as something separate from the body that survives the body's death but which will be destroyed in hell. And equally clearly, both He and Stephen committed their spirits to God when they died. As far as a "dead spirit" is concerned, I see that as being a spirit which is disconnected from God. Of course it is not "out of existence", because a dead spirit can respond to evil. But it only has life when the Holy Spirit awakens it. And the symbol of baptism is not a literal spiritual dying. It is just a symbol of what has already happened spiritually. By dying to ourselves, we surrender our sinful, self-absorbed life controlled by our dead, disconnected spirits, and we give ourselves into the control of Jesus. We do give up and forever turn away from ("die to") our own self-interests in favor of God's transformation of us into new creatures. I think one of my "whoa!" moments along the way was realizing that "death" does not necessarily mean "Non-existent". The Bible, especially the New Testament, pictures death as being separated from God, being in a place of darkness and abadnoment and suffering, and life as being in Christ in the presence of the Father forever. We are born with spirits condemned to death. They are "dead" because they are not in connection to God. The Holy Spirit brings them to life and makes us new with a new birth. Something real and spiritual happens. The new birth truly results in a new creation. We really can't completely decipher the spirit/soul dilemma from the information we have in the Bible. But the passage Dennis quoted above is clear and really does describe the big picture I read in the Bible. Praise God for Life! Colleen | ||
| Doug_s Registered user Username: Doug_s Post Number: 56 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thanks PW, I appreciate your comment. I agree with you that what returned to the maid was not just her breath. The bible says that Christ is the quickening spirit. That is, He is the spirit that makes someone or something alive. It is the power of His Word and Spirit that creates and recreates life. Lazarus was raised to life by the power of the word of Jesus Christ. When Jesus said "Lazarus come forth" He literally spoke him back into life. From Him comes our life, our spirit of life. So, it is appropriate that He would be the one to cause the spirit of the girl to return to her. My question is, from where did her spirit return. From where did her life return. He spoke to her saying "Maid arise", very similar to what He said to Lazarus. It came from the giver of life, Jesus Christ. The same One who spoke this world into existence. Jesus said that He is the resurrection. It is by the power of His Word, Spirit, and Name that mankind receives life. The purpose of bringing people back from the dead was to show that Jesus is the quickening spirit. He is the one who makes one alive. He said I am the way, the truth, and the life. The everlasting life is of Him and He gives it freely to those who ask. We don't have the power to raise ourselves from the dead. The bible says it is His spirit that quickens our mortal bodies, not our spirit but His. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 520 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, the Holy Spirit is the source of our life. Yes, the Holy Spirit quickens our mortal bodies. Yes, God's power--the Spirit that is in Jesus--resurrects us. But the Bible is clear that we also have spirits, and those spirits go to God. The body is separate from the spirit, and at the resurrection, the power of God reunites them. 1 Thessalonians 4:14 says that at Jesus' return, "God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him." Paul proceeds in verse 16 to say that the dead in Christ will rise first. I do not see the Bible suggesting that man's spirit is really God's spirit, or that it is God's Spirit in us that returns to God. I see our spirit being ours, God's Spirit being God's, and God's Spirit bringing us to eternal life. The body and the spirit are brought to life separately, and our eternally-living spirits are united at the resurrection with our newly immortal bodies. Colleen | ||
| Doug_s Registered user Username: Doug_s Post Number: 57 Registered: 7-2004 |
I don't think there is a spirit/soul dilemma. I think it can be understood. And I think, for my own peace of mind, it should be understood. Surely you didn't really mean to say "decipher", as if the scriptures are a secret code that we can't understand. The Holy Spirit is responsible for it's writing and I believe it can help us understand them. The big picture as I see it is we win in the end! All I know is what the divinely inspired word says and that is that Jesus' soul was not left in hades, hell, the grave, the sepulcher, whatever you feel comfortable with. Jesus was dead. And if he was not left there that means he was there at some point in time. The bible says three days. Even if Acts 2:30-31 is speaking of his resurrection and victory over death, it still means that he died and his soul was in hades, hell, ect. I can see how the thought of Christ in hell might make some folks uncomfortable but that is the reality. I don't even like writing it down. If saying hades is more palatable then I'll start using that word. But I do try to take the scriptures as they are given in the best possible context. I'm just trying to be a good Berean here and make sure that what I hear is according to scripture. With all due respect, I'm not overly concerned with what most Christians believe but rather what the bible teaches. That means I need to break things down to understand them better, comparing this verse with that etc. Although, I do believe we are to share and learn from one another and if a brother or sister can show me the error of my ways I welcome it. That is what I am doing here. In Mat 10:28 the hell that is referred to there is not hades but gehenna. A different hell that I believe means utter destruction in the lake of fire. I believe that because the word "kill" in Mat 10:28 when referring to the body but not the soul is different from the word "destroy" which is used in context of both body and soul. The same greek word for "destroy" is also used when Herod wanted to destroy the baby Jesus. It means an utter destruction which would remove all thought and memory of that person. Herod wanted to wipe out the supposed baby King whom he feared would displace him. He wanted to make sure that there was never any knowledge of this new King. An utter destruction of someone's soul or personality and knowledge or memory of that soul is what is referred to in Matthew 10:28. Only God can remove someone's impression or impact made on this earth. A grave is a memorial to the dead. It is a place of remembrance of the dearly departed one from the land of the living. God can and will make sure that there is absolutely no remembrance of anyone or soul that He destroys. That happens in gehenna, hell. But that is not where Jesus went. The hell His soul went to was hades, the grave, the place of the dead. And of course, the purpose of Acts 2:30-31 is to tell us that He was not left or adandoned there. As far as the chemical reactions go and just when the breakdown or decay begins I'm no medical expert but I have heard that it may not necessarily take place immediately. Should we take the inspired bible at it's word when it says the body did not suffer decay? In other places we do so why not here? I'm sorry but it's not so clear to me and I have to disagree completely with the statement that Jesus sees the soul as something separate from the body that survives death. I would not ever presume to put myself in the place of Jesus and tell someone what He saw. I don't think that is what you meant to do or say but I do have to mention it. There is an abundance of scriptural evidence that the soul experiences death, and not the kind found in hell - gehenna. A soul can shed blood. Colleen, I see I am not making myself clear. We are in agreement that we each have our own spirit. I thought I made that clear but if not I'm sorry. I never said or meant to say that our spirit is God's spirit or that we are some kind of god with only God's spirit in us. Is that what you think I'm saying? Heaven forbid that I might lead anyone think that is what I am saying. What I am saying is that the bible says our spirit is joined with the Holy Spirit so that it can be regenerated daily, but it still exists as our own spirit in our mortal bodies. At death, our own spirit that is joined to the Holy Spirit goes to God and dwells in Jesus Christ. I'll address the text in 1 Thessalonians 4:14 in my next post. Doug | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 88 Registered: 6-2004 |
What do you think the word "worm" refers to in Revelation when it speaks about the burning lake of fire where their worm does not die? Is that a soul or spirit? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 521 Registered: 12-2003 |
Pw, the quote "where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched," is found in Mark 9:48. In it, Jesus is quoting Isaiah 66:24 where Isaiah's prophecy concludes with the final punishment for the unbelieving. The reference is to Gehenna, the well-known dump and place of perpetual smoldering where refuse was thrown. Also, during the reigns of Ahaz and Mannaseh, human sacrifices to Molech were offered there. The footnote on the phrase "their worm does not die" in Isaiah suggests eternal torment. The footnote on that phrase in Mark simply says, "Worms were always present in the rubbish dump." Doug, I confess I find myself confused a bit when I read your posts about this subject. For some reason I'm having some trouble understanding exactly what you mean, and I apologize if I've misinterpreted you or responded in a way that did not address your true intent. I'll just summarize my true intent and leave it at that. I believe we are both physical and spiritual. Based on the Genesis account, I deduce that our souls are related to both in some way. The Bible, however, is not clear about the natures of the soul and the spirit. We understand that the spirit is what knows God, and we know that when we are born again it can never be lost from His presence. Exactly what the definition of the soul is--or even the spirit, for that matter--we cannot definitively conclude because the Bible is not definitive about them. We do not need to worry about them, though, because we are secure forever in Christ and, in Him, in the presence of the Father. We cannot be dogmatic about things the Bible is not clear on. If it were important for us to understand these things clearly, the Bible would have been definitive. It's enough for us to know that we are alive in Christ, and that life is eternal. It is enough to know that it is better by far to be away from this body and present with the Lord. It is enough to know that we--not some recreation of ourselves--will be resurrected into new bodies as Jesus was. It's enough to know that we are not temporarily annihilated at death as we were taught in Adentism! Praise God for revealing Himself to us. Jesus is enough. Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 130 Registered: 4-2000 |
Just like God put man together originally with a dualistic nature, body and soul (also referred to as spirit, essence, heart, liver, mind, etc.), He will do likewise when our sleeping body reunites with our soul at the Second Coming of Christ. A "LIVING soul" is what God made Adam into. Sadly, Adam's "living soul" died spiritually at the Fall--just like God promised, in the very day, in the event of disobedience or sin. Without understanding these essential details of creation (the first Adam) and redemption (the second Adam) the new birth experience under the New Covenant would be a puzzlement at best. The following is Argument #9, in Dr. Morey's book, DEATH AND THE AFTERLIFE (page 242): "Why would God punish finite sins with infinite torment? Doesn't it make better sense to give finite punishment for finite sins? ANSWER: The problem with this argument is that we are not speaking of a finite God. The God of Scripture is infinite and since His salvation is eternal, even so His wrath is eternal. It is no more inconceivable that God rewards finite unbelief with infinite wrath than that He rewards finite faith with infinite bliss. To shut hell would be to shut heaven if this argument were true." Truly, God is sovereign in His wrath as well as in His grace (Romans 9:13-23). His divine wrath makes grace even more amazing. Because all men are "by nature" sinners, all men are under the wrath of God (Ephesians 2:3). We are all desperately in need of a Savior and Substitute; namely, Jesus Christ. In conclusion, it is important to note that the SDA/JW view of death (soul sleep/conditionalism/annihilation) and the traditional Christian view cannot BOTH be right. Obviously, one must be wrong and one must be right. There is no middle ground on this important topic. These views are as incompatible and separate as oil and water. May God continue to grant us the wisdom and humility to better understand the depths of His eternal love and wrath. Dennis J. Fischer PS: I understand that Dr. Robert Morey's book, DEATH AND THE AFTERLIFE, is currently out of print. However, one can still find used copies through Amazon.com for a very reasonable price. I have three copies--one hardbound and two paperbacks. This book is well worth the bother to obtain. --DJF | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 95 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hello Doug_s, I donít think we have met, as I have been away for awhile. So, hi! It seems to me your theory has a few problems, so Iíll just ìcome backî a little :-) There are several points which occurred to me, perhaps I should number them, just for clarity, not to be ìofficialî 1. I checked the Greek of Luke 23: 43, and it does in fact say, ìYou will be with me in paradise.î Greek does not need subject pronouns, except for emphasis, as the subject can be seen from the ending of the verb. The word ìesÈî is the second person singular future of the verb to be, meaning ìyou will beî. For it to be ìit will beî i.e. third person singular, it would have to be ìestai.î So the idea of Jesus referring to something else being in paradise, and not the thief himself, does not really work. 2. When the thief refers to Jesus ìcoming in his kingdom,î it is highly unlikely he is talking about going to heaven. The thief was a first century Jew, and their idea of the kingdom was that the Messiah would come and set up his kingdom on the earth; see the question asked by the disciples in Acts 1: 6 about Jesus restoring the kingdom to Israel. So the way I see this conversation is something like this: ìJesus, when you come back to set up your Messianic kingdom on the earth, please remember me.î And Jesus replies: ìEven better than that, you will be in paradise with me this very day.î The word paradise is not clear either, as it only occurs three times in the NT. It is found quite a lot in inter-testamental literature, but the meaning is not always identical there either. It can be the abode of the blessed dead, but it can also refer to the garden of Eden. Whatever it is, it seems to me Jesus is promising to be with the thief immediately in the ìafterlife.î 3. The Greek word ìdestroyî (apollumi) does not mean annihilate, it is more like spoil, ruin, or lose. You can see this from the parable of the wineskins in Mark 2: 22. Jesus says when the skins split both the wine and the skins will be ìdestroyedî (same Greek word). They are not annihilated, they still exist, but they are lost, spoilt, ruined, no longer of any use for their original purpose. The reference in Mat 2: 13 is also consistent with this meaning. So when Jesus says God will destroy the body and soul in hell, it does not mean they cease to exist, but they are lost, or ruined. 4. I agree with Colleen that the word death in Biblical usage refers principally to separation, so to say someone is spiritually dead, it does not mean his spirit is non-existent or non-functional, just separated from God. 5. I am not really sure if you are saying this, but do you think that Jesus had the Holy Spirit in the place of a human spirit? There are several problems with this. As humans, we are made up of body, soul and spirit. You have said this several times. So if Jesus did not have a human spirit, then he was not really human, he just seemed to be, and that is the heresy of docetism. It is also similar to Apollinarianism - though that taught that the logos (2nd person of the trinity) occupied the place of the human spirit in Jesus. The Bible teaches that Jesus was both fully God and fully man. If Jesus was not fully human, then that really causes huge problems, as he could not have died instead of us, he could not be our mediator, as so on. The Bible also teaches that the Holy Spirit came on Jesus when he was baptised, so how did he cope up till that time with no spirit at all? Just a few thoughts, God bless, Adrian | ||
| Doug_s Registered user Username: Doug_s Post Number: 58 Registered: 7-2004 |
In Isaiah 66 we see God declare his sovereignty, heaven is his throne and earth is his footstool. He made all things and he establishes his place of worship. In my opinion, this entire chapter is speaking to the first coming of Jesus Christ the messiah, his establishment of the Christian church, the commission to go forth and make disciples of all nations. In the process of establishing His new Jerusalem, the spiritual heavenly city, God is also declaring the end of the old Jerusalem. His wrath and indignation is poured out through Christís gospel message he delivered to the world, signified by the flaming sword. His word is a flaming sword and His angels are the chariots of fire. If you read this chapter through the eyes of Christís first coming and the gospel being taken to all mankind I think you will see what is being said. In reviewing this I found something that is quite interesting about the ìwormî that never dies. Rather than try to explain it myself Iíll copy and paste what I found. Btw, the word used to describe the worm is the Hebrew word towla. Towla - worm, crimson, scarlet stuff ñ the dye made from the dried body of the female of the worm "coccus ilicis" the worm "coccus ilicis" ++++ When the female of the scarlet worm species was ready to give birth to her young, she would attach her body to the trunk of a tree, fixing herself so firmly and permanently that she would never leave again. The eggs deposited beneath her body were thus protected until the larvae were hatched and able to enter their own life cycle. As the mother died, the crimson fluid stained her body and the surrounding wood. From the dead bodies of such female scarlet worms, the commercial scarlet dyes of antiquity were extracted. What a picture this gives of Christ, dying on the tree, shedding his precious blood that he might "bring many sons unto glory" ("#Heb 2:10")! He died for us, that we might live through him! "#Ps 22:6" describes such a worm and gives us this picture of Christ. (cf. "#Isa 1:18") (from page 73, "Biblical Basis for Modern Science", 1985, Baker Book House, by Henry Morris) Psa 22:6 But I [am] a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. IMHO, this entire chapter is talking about the Jews who rejected Christ as their savior, the worm that died so they could live. Since they rejected Christ, their worm never dies so they canít live. They rejected Christ then and still do today. The fact that there are those trying to set up an new temple and reinstitute sacrifices indicates that their fire is not extinguished but still goes on. The last verse says they are an abhorring sight to all flesh, all mankind. Any true Christian who accepts Christ as the one and only last sacrifice for sins, the One who caused an end of oblations and sacrifices should consider any attempt at reestablishing a temple and sacrifices abhorring. Jesus said let the dead bury the dead. So, He considered the Jews of his day, the ones that rejected Him and His message, as dead because they were still under the curse. The carcasses the new priests and Levites (all Christians) pass by are those that are dead under the curse and they have no hope of life. So, their worm which gives life when it dies will not give them life because it does not die. It seems that the fire mentioned here could possibly refer to the fire of Godís indignation, His anger, which no man can quench. That fire was poured out on Christ on the cross, putting an end to all oblations and sacrifices, Dan 9:27. So the fire, in effect, was quenched by God Himself for us. The constant burning of fire on the altar showed Godís requirement for sin. God was satisfied, appeased by Christís sacrifice so there is no more need for such. To those that accept Jesus as their savior there is no more burning fire to consume them. Since the Jews reject Christ there still remains a fire of burning, and they (at least the Orthodox Jews) apparently want to reinstitute the services. Thatís a shame and an abhorring, contemptible thing in the eyes of all flesh. Doug | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 637 Registered: 7-2000 |
Adrian, I appreciate the way you organize your thoughts; makes the subject matter clearer to me. So, Jesus was born of Mary with an alive-to-God human spirit, one that knew no sin...right? Was there a difference in Jesus when the "Holy Spirit" came upon Him at His baptism? Had He lived those 30 previous years in a different state of being, or was the "dove" symbol given for those other people watching, especially John the Baptist? And what are your thoughts on where Jesus' human "spirit" went at His death and resurrection? This is an interesting subject! grace always, cindy | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 89 Registered: 6-2004 |
Thanks Colleen. I didn't have a bible handy when I quoted the scripture about the "worm that does not die" along with Revelation. | ||
| Doug_s Registered user Username: Doug_s Post Number: 59 Registered: 7-2004 |
Wow! This is something that could go on for a long long time. I don't mind it because as Cindy says, this is an interesting subject. I don't know where to start, it's such fertile ground for discussion. Adrian, I also appreciate your thoughts and I don't think we have met,officially. Hi! I noticed that your user name is Doc. I guess that means you are a scholar. Maybe you can explain this to me then. I have found more than one explanation for the verb "to be". You say it is second person singular future but I have found that is also said to be first person singular future, esomai - future tense of eimi, which carries the meaning to be, to exist, to happen, I am, is, am, be. And when I look at Stephen's Textus Receptus (1550) it shows the word as "esh". Is "esh" different from "ese?" If so, how? I see that Westcott-Hort (1881)shows the verb to be "ese." From my limited knowledge of greek it sure seems fuzzy as to which verb form we can rely on. Obviously, the scholars have chosen to settle on the meaning "you will be". If that is truly the case then I accept that as fact. You know, I think this is the first time someone has made the position to me that the malefactor was told by Jesus he could be going somewhere other than heaven, that Jesus was referring to something other than heaven when he spoke of paradise. It's true that the word has limited use, three times. I tell you what. I'll just leave the verses below and let others decide for themselves just where paradise is. Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2Cr 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. Verse 2 refers to being caught up to the third heaven. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. It seems pretty clear to me what and where paradise is, even with these few verses. If it's the abode of the blessed dead we have a problem because Jesus' soul went into hell (I know I know it wasn't left there), and His Spirit went to the Father. Which way did the malefactor go? Up or down? Jesus said you will be with me, where is that? Where did Jesus go in the afterlife that the malefactor could be with him? My point all along has been that Jesus, the man who is God, did not go into paradise, heaven, that day when he spoke on the cross. He gave up the Holy Ghost, He committed His Holy Spirit into the hands of the Father. But his soul went into the grave, tomb, sepulcher, hades, hell, the realm of the the dead whatever you want to call it. The malefactor's spirit witnessed on the cross his belief in Jesus as the Messiah. He believed in Jesus so he was saved right there on the cross. His spirit had received the Holy Spirit and the two were joined together. The malefactor's personal spirit went to heaven that day. But the personal human spirit of Jesus would have to die that day in order to experience the eternal punishment he had to endure for us. The eternal Spirit did not die that day but the human spirit did. It is the eternal Spirit that returned life back into the man Jesus who is both fully God and fully man. If he is fully man body, soul, and spirit then he must die fully in order to pay the eternal punishment we should receive. Otherwise his human spirit should still be suffering and should eternally suffer for our sins. He took our punishment while we were yet unbelievers, unsaved. If he did so then what ever punishment we deserve for our unsaved condition He should have to endure. And He was fully returned to life through His resurrection. So Jesus went to heaven, paradise when he ascended 40 days later and guess whose spirit was there. That's right, the malefactor's. Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world and that it does not come with observation. It seems that very few comprehended what he was saying. When you look to who saw Him for who He really was it seemed to be those in places you wouldn't expect. Like a Roman centurian, or a rebellious malefactor who fought against the Roman establishment. He quite possibly could have been a zealot who had joined up with previous false messiahs claiming to rescue Israel from the Roman tyranny. He could have been someone looking for Jesus when He came. And when he found Him he recognized Him. Maybe He believed Jesus when He said "behold the kingdom of God is within you" or "the kingdom of God comes not with observation." He spoke constantly of the kingdom of God. Who knows, maybe the malefactor heard some of Christ's preaching. One thing's for sure, he knew Jesus was blameless, innocent and did not deserve to die such a horrible death. Adrian, you know as well as I do that the greek word apollumi carries various meanings and we can not restrict it to one in particular, like lost or ruined. Granted it means that, but it also carries the meaning to abolish, to put away entirely, to put an end to ruin, to kill, render useless, to perish, to be lost. An endless discussion can be made for the meaning of "destroy", as used in Matthew 10:28, 2:13, and others. Did Christ die on the cross? Was His death any less than ours? Is the penalty or punishment for disbelief worse than what Christ paid? Was God not satisfied with the price Christ paid? Did Christ pay for the sins of all mankind, before they believed? The bible says that the Holy Spirit conceived Jesus. I believe there was a human spirit in him prior to baptism. The baptism of Christ and the dove descending upon him and remaining signifies his anointing as the true messiah. The Holy Spirit had been in Jesus from birth and never left Him until He died. Jesus' human spirit was in constant submission to the resident Holy Spirit. When Jesus breathed on the disciples in John 20:22 He said "...receive ye the Holy Ghost". The word used to describe "breathed" there is used in only one other place and that is by the LXX translators in Genesis 2:7, where the Lord "breathed" into the nostrils of Adam. It is the same creative breath. Just more thoughts.  Doug | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 90 Registered: 6-2004 |
Correct me if I'm wrong here but I think it was one thing to have Jesus "breath" the Holy Spirit on his disciples, but it wasn't until Pentecost that they were "filled" with the Holy Spirit. I don't think people were filled with the Holy Spirit before Christ went back to heaven because in the Old Testament it says the Spirit came "upon" those like David, Moses, etc. | ||
| Doug_s Registered user Username: Doug_s Post Number: 60 Registered: 7-2004 |
You could be right there. It doesn't say that the disciples were filled with the Holy Ghost. I suppose there could be a diffence between being filled and having it breathed into/onto them. The bible in Gen 41:38 does say that Joseph was a man in whom was the Spirit of God. At least that's what Pharoah said. And he gave Joseph the name Zaphnathpaaneah,in verse 45, which means "treasury of the glorious rest". I'm not sure what the difference is, if any, between having the spirit upon you (being written upon) or having it in you. In both cases I see individuals in the bible who can and do prophesy. In Exodus 31:3 it says this about Bezaleel "And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,". So it appears that there's not much difference. There were those in OT and NT that were filled with and had the spirit on them. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 526 Registered: 12-2003 |
There is a great difference between the Holy Spirit being IN and ON a person. This question, in fact, contains the essence of the signficance of the new birth. Jesus told his disciples that he would ask the Father, and he would give them another Counselor to be with them forever. The world, he said, cannot accept him, but the disciples know him, "for he lives with you and will be in you." (John 14;6-7) The disciples were well aware of the Holy Spirit because He lived with them and gifted them, etc. But He was NOT IN THEM. The Old Testament is full of examples of the Holy Spirit resting on people, and it even does have some references to people being "filled" with the Holy Spirit. But these examples are not the same as what happened at Pentecost and subsequently to all those who accept Jesus' sacrifice. The Holy Spirit could not indwell people until Jesus had completed the atonment for our sins. The indwelling Holy Spirit puts us in the presence of God. Because of the Holy Spirit, we are restored to the spiritual life Adam and Eve had before the fall, and that life was not possible before Jesus died and rose again. It's only when we accept Jesus atonement that the new and living way to the Father, Christ's blood, opens to us. It opens to us when the Holy Spirit indwells us at the time we accept Jesus. Before Jesus, people were not born again. They were saved by faith in God's promises, but they were not born again. the church is an entirely new thing; it's formation at Pentecost (repeated shortly thereafter among the Samaritans [Acts 8] and then the Gentiles [Acts 11]) was singular. Nothing like it had ever happened before. The mystery of Christ in us making all men, Jew and Gentile alike, one in Him was the "mystery of his will according to his good pleaserueóto bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ." (Ephesians 1:9) Also Ephesians 3:3-6 says that the mystery "not made known to men in other generations [is] now revealed by the Spirit;" Through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, memers together of one body, and shareres together in the promise in Christ Jesus. The church, comprised of all those who are born from above by the Holy Spirit, is a New Covenant phenomenon. We are truly no longer mere humans; we are a new creation born of God. John said "to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of Godóchildren born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God." (John 1:12-13) James even said, "He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of first-fruits of all he created." (James 1:18) In order to be first-fruits, those he was addressing had to be the first of something that would continue to produce but which had never been before. God is God; He is not limited by things that seem logical to us. Of course, in the Old Testament God had His people to whom he gave gifts via the Holy Spirit. But they were not recipients of the new birth in the same way those after christ's ascension were. The church is something new. It is Christ's body. No longer do people have to worship in sacred places assigned by God or on sacred days. They are, rather, to worship in spirit and in truth because God is spirit. Pentecost brought the dead human spirits to life, and the Holy Spirit continues to do so. We actually house the presence of God in us. Until Jesus paid the price of His blood, such intimacy with God was not possible. The indwelling Holy Spirit is THE significant difference in God's people after Christ. The church is a new body. The Holy Spirit is what makes humans God's children. 2 Corinthians 5:17: "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!" I used to wonder how I could think God would treat those who loved him differently in the NT than in the OT. But God is sovereign. Just as Israel was different from the people of the early period of history before Abraham, so the church is different from Israel. Each is a successive revelation of God's love, his grace, his will, his election. WE are now alive in Jesus because of His obedience, the Father's incomprehensible gift, and the Holy Spirit's indwelling. Praise Him, three in One! Oh, Cindy, I do believe the Holy Spirit at Jesus' baptism was a special blessing, a special filling, that launched his ministry. As Roy (my son) said tonight, we are indwelt once: when we accept Jesus. We are filled many times--whenever we must repent, when God equips us for work he calls us to do, for strength or words or whatever is needed for a particular situation. We do not always live by the power of the Spirit available to us; that does not undo His indwelling. But when we turn to Him in surrender, His Spirit fills us with the courage and power for whatever it is we must then do. Further, the Holy Spirit's descent on Jesus at His baptism was also a sign for all those watching--although we only know for sure that John understood what and who Jesus was at that moment. There were undoubtedly others who remembered that moment later and then understood. His baptism, the Dove, and the voice of the Father were confirmations that this WAS the Messiah. If anyone ever doubted, they could remember what happened that day. Colleen | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 638 Registered: 7-2000 |
Colleen, Thank you for your thoughts above; I agreee. I guess my struggle is that I too often get feelings of exhasution, despair, and even sometimes anger in my life... I want more of His Spirit evident in my life. I love God so much; I just wish I "felt" more saintly at times! I desire to know Jesus more, to live in His Presence continually. I am so grateful to be in His care, not under some denominations' law-keeping endeavors. grace always, cindy |
