| Author | Message | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 97 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hi Cindy, Thanks for your difficult questions :-) Yes, I think Jesus was born with a human spirit which was alive to God. He was the second Adam, and did not sin during his life, so his relationship with God was never broken, like Adamís was. He therefore would have had no need to be ěborn againî because he was always spiritually alive. At his baptism, God anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit. Up to this point he had performed no miracles or any other ministry, but he did so after receiving this anointing for service ń see Acts 10: 37-38. I donít think this meant he entered any ědifferent state of beingî as you put it. As to where Jesusí spirit went when he died, I am afraid I havenít really managed to figure that one out yet. Just a bit of waffle now, Iím not really sure about this. The Word of Faith teachers claim that Jesus went to hell when he died ń though of course this did not originate with them, the early church creeds also have, ěHe descended into hell.î The reason given is that Jesus had to die spiritually as well as physically in order to complete the work of redemption. Another reason is that Jesus had to go to hell to get the ěkeys of deathî off the devil before he was resurrected. The problem with this is that Jesus said, ěIt is finishedî before he died, which would indicate that the work of redemption was already completed on the cross. Also, if ěspiritual deathî means separation from God, then this happened on the cross as well, as Jesus cried out to God, asking him why he had forsaken him. Another problem is that eternal hell, Gehenna, with the devil in it, does not exist yet, it is the place of final punishment, the second death. As far as I know, there is no indication in the Bible that the devil is in Hades, in the intermediate state. So for these reasons, I tend to think Jesus went to be with the Father when he died, in line with, ěinto your hands I commit my spiritî and also with his promise to be in paradise with the thief. Doug, Iím afraid you lost me a bit. Anyway: I used ědocî because I have a doctorate in chemistry, nothing to do with theology Iím afraid, that came later. In Greek, ěto beî is irregular, as in many languages. The three persons singular in the present (i.e. I am, thou art, he is) are: eimi, ei, estin And in the future: esomai, esČ, estai The word is esČ in the passage in question and can only mean ěthou wilt be.î There are no variants indicated in my critical edition. I donít know where you get ěeshî from, but it canít be a Greek word, as Greek does not have the ěshî sound at all. The Greek spelling of esČ looks a bit like it might be esh. Is that what you meant? Apollumi may have a broad semantic field, but that also means you cannot use the word to prove ěannihilationî of the soul either :-) Sorry, but I canít go along with the idea of the spirit and soul of a person splitting from one another and going in opposite directions. I tend to see spirit as an entity which can exist independently, but soul being more like the personality, so it needs something to exist in contact with, either a body, or a spirit, or both. I see the ěpersonalityî of someone continuing to exist at death, along with the spirit, but not separate from it. Of course, the semantic fields of the Greek words for soul and spirit are also very broad, and the Hebrew is different again, and even more complex. Makes things rather complicated. Bye for now, God bless you all, Adrian | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 530 Registered: 12-2003 |
Adrian, I've come to the same tentative conclusion you have about Jesus' location at his death. Truly, the Bible is not clear; it suggests things, but it seems we only can infer what happened, not prove it. I also agree that I cannot see evidence for the soul existing independently--and it does seem to be the personality. Again, though, I feel comfortable not really knowing. Cindy, I understand your feelings of wanting to feel God's presence more. I feel that, too. Sometimes I find that praising God when I feel overloaded, fearful, anxious, etc. changes things dramatically. I believe that praising God really does make it hard for either harrassing spirits or our own helpless or frantic feelings to dominate us. I may still have to struggle to surrender whatever I'm dealing with, but praise seems often to give me hope and courage and a grounding in reality. I also wish I could manage myself better--I am so thankful, though, that God still holds me and gives me Himself. Colleen | ||
| Doug_s Registered user Username: Doug_s Post Number: 61 Registered: 7-2004 |
I'm sorry I keep losing folks in my discourse. I guess I tend to do that. It sounds like Adrian will be out of touch for a little while. Adrian, I'll just include this bit in case you get back to us some time soon. The Textus Receptus text file I have shows an "h" in place of an "e", I do believe it was probably mistakenly inserted for "e". That's why I asked. Thanks. I accept that it means "thou wilt be". For some reason, the same source that provided me the text file for the Textus Receptus shows that the greek verb form is "esomai" instead of "ese". That's what I mean about it being a little fuzzy. Btw, would you use "ese" in this sentence? "You will be with me in my prayers" Hmm, I don't think I said one could or could not use the word apollumi to prove their point. I can and I do use it along with other biblical evidence. What I said was an endless discussion could be made for the use of the word. You and others believe you can use it to prove your point. I use it to prove mine. A tool can have many uses and may not be restricted to just one application. A knife can be used for more than one use. It can be used to save a life, as well as take one. A quick look at the usage count of the word apollumi in the Authorized KJV (no particular reason I chose this translation, it was closest and easiest for me to use) is as follows: perish 33, destroy 26, lose 22, be lost 5, lost 4, misc 2; 92  I wasn't going to mention certain particular texts of scripture because I thought some folks would feel I'm sounding too much like an SDA, but since Dennis brought it up I figure I can venture forth. Genesis 2:7 and 1 Cor 15:45 indicate that God made Adam a living soul by breathing his living breath of life into his nostrils. Adam became a living soul. I believe that the spirit refers to the life-giving or animating force, that vitality, that distinguishes between a living, functioning body and dead body. The spirit is a personal, emotive, cognitive force that gives life to the body. It has personality and attributes that come from God. The "evidence" of that vitality, that is to say the proof of existence of the human body is contained in the personality of emotions, thoughts, experiences, etc is the soul. It is the soul which witnesses that the human body has life. I believe the soul is the full expression of spirit and body through the human will, mind, and emotions. It is the blending or interaction of life and its attendant attributes with body to be acted out in the natural state. The clear message from both the OT and NT instruction is that mankind's existence is comprised wholly of body, soul, spirit. There is a distinction between soul and spirit. That is why we refer to people as souls. But soul is more than just a body, it is a living body. One that has feelings, and thoughts and life. When I say that a soul can shed blood, I am referring to a living breathing person who is a living soul. With this in mind, I believe we can say that the spirit is a vital force separate from the body that was given to the first human, Adam, without which no human being can live. In fact, without this spirit the human body will return to the dust of the earth, from which it came. The soul can not exist, that is live, without the presence of the spirit. But yet, distinctly, the spirit can exist separately from the soul. A soul can be utterly destroyed, albeit only by the one eternal God. If God either removes the spirit from the body or never returns the spirit of life back to the body then the soul will cease to live and therefore die. I believe the bible says that God will utterly destroy both the body and soul of all those that reject Him. There will be no more memory, no memorial, no utterance of evil or evil doers. If God does not return life back into the human it will not exist anymore. If a person is killed for his belief, only God can restore life to the body and thereby restore the soul. Do not fear those that can kill your body. God can and will restore your soul. What the Lord can create, that He can also destroy. Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy (blot out, obliterate, exterminate) man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. From what I've read above, it sounds like we are not that far apart in our understanding of what the soul actually is. It seems to me that one's "personality" as expressed through the body, as a soul, cannot continue it's expression without the body to act through, if the spirit has left. The bible says that, at death, the spirit of man goes up and the spirit of beasts goes down. Evil doers are called beasts because they follow the natural course and not the spiritual. I think the spirit of evil doers goes the same way of the beasts, it dies (meaning ceases to exist). The spirit of man, who follows God, goes up to be with God, it follows the spiritual course. I believe a human soul exists only when a body has life. When that life leaves, then the soul dies. It ceases to know, to see, to feel. It enters into hades - a state or condition of not knowing, not seeing, not perchieving by any of the senses. When Christ's spirit left His body, His soul died. That is what is meant by His soul being in Hell (hades). I believe that His human spirit had to die in order for him to be our propitiation. He had to die wholly and completely. He had to go the way of the evil doers in order to complete the act of redemption. I believe we humans receive our spirit from our parents. And that Jesus received his human spirit from his mother, in the same manner we all receive ours. The difference being that his human spirit was joined at conception with the Holy Spirit. Jesus was never at any time separated from the Holy Spirit. Not until He gave up, yielded up (sent away) the ghost,Mat 27:50, Mar 15:27, Lu 23:46 did His Spirit leave Him. In John 19:30 it says that Jesus gave up the ghost, the Spirit, into the hands of the Father. Only God has the power and authority to discharge the spirit. Only God knows and determines when death will occur. Christ is the only man to ever live who knew when He would die because He had the power and authority to determine such. He sent away the spirit at the time He determined. Man can not do such. Ecc 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge (sending) in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it. Scripture says that Adam was made a living soul and that Christ was made a quickening spirit which means He is a spirit that makes something become alive. Adam's living soul was a manifestation of the life that was in him. Christ is that very life itself. That life that was given to Adam has been passed down from one generation to another. There has never been a discontinuity of human spirit since Adam. God has made sure that of that. Here's something kind of interesting. Peter said that a day to God is like thousand years to man. The Lord told Adam that in the day you eat of the tree you will die. It's interesting that Adam died before he got to be 1000 yrs old (age 930). So if we think in terms of a day being 1000 years to God, then Adam did die in the day (according to God)that he ate of the tree. Sorry, I sort of went off on a tangent there. In Christ's love and service, Doug | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 535 Registered: 12-2003 |
Actually, Doug, what you say sounds fairly logical and reminds me pretty much of how I saw things when I was an Adventist with the exception of Jesus' spirit being connected to the Holy Spirit from his birth. The problem is that I no longer believe the Bible supports a clear-cut definition of death (Hades) as non-knowing. It makes sense from a human point of view, but I believe that death is not something we can actually explain with certainty. We know the dead cannot interact with those living on earth; we know they are "asleep"--which is intended to denote something different from our understanding of "dead". Peter says that Christ "was put to death in the body but made alie by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirit in prison who disobeyed long ago..." (1 Peter 3:18-19) We do not know exactly what this text suggests Jesus did, but it does suggest that his spirit did something, probably during his death--and we also know he commited his spirit to God. All of this is to say--while we can speculate endlessly and maybe even somewhat accurately on certain parts of the subject, we cannot define exactly what happens to these parts of a human after death. All we can know for sure is that our bodies go to the ground; our spirits go to God; God brings the righteous dead back with Jesus and then resurrects the righteous ( 1 Thess. 4:14-16); our spirit is the part of us which the Holy Spirit communicates with (Romans 8:16); and our spirit, which is the part of us that knows God, does not cease to exist when we die. I'm sorry if I sound like I keep repeating myself persistently. I don't mean to be hard-nosed or argumentative. I am, however, aware that many more people than just those of us who post read this board, and I do want to be sure that those who read understand that there is more than one way to look at this subject, and the Bible does not give us detailed answers about it. It gives us just enough to know that our eternal life is really eternal, we are not temporarily annihilated at our deaths, and we will receive new bodies at the resurrection in which our redeemed spirits will live. (see 2 Corinthians 5) Beyond that, we may speculate and perhaps even be accurate, yet me must acknolwedge that we are only speculating. I am so thankful to know now that at my death I will not die like an animal dies as I once believed I would! Praise God for redeeming us as both physical and spiritual creations! Colleen | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 418 Registered: 7-2003 |
Can anyone explain how it is logical to think God collects our "breaths"? When B used to say our spirit was just our breath, I would ask him if he thought the Holy Spirit was just holy hot air since it's the same word for spirit there as well. As usual when he doesn't have an SDA comeback, he says nothing, but I've never understood how they find it logical that God cares so much about breath. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 58 Registered: 7-2004 |
OK PW and Doug, Let your creative juices flow on Melissa's comment -- "...God cares so much about breath." I can only imagine what "two mints in one" can come up with!! Melissa - Funny line BUT oh so true! I have been on my own quest for truth for 6 years or so and it has taken a great deal of time to comprehend the role of the Holy Spirit in my life (though I doubt I have yet to fully comprehend!). I had heard about the Fruits of the Spirit all my life and even after knowing and believing the Holy Spirit was given to me as a gift and understanding His role in my life (John 14:16-26), I could not totally grasp the full impact of His presence in my life. I think the biggest stumbling block, for those of us in this transition, is trusting the persuasion of The Spirit. All our SDA life we were told not to do that. It was not of God to listen to that still small voice. Now I understand why. The only voice that we hear, in a SDA mind, is the devil's because our "breaths" don't "talk". I am so grateful to understand that I have been "sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of [my] inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession!" Eph. 1:13 | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 93 Registered: 6-2004 |
Well, you asked for it...I agree with with Melissa. If God is only collecting our "breaths" then I hope he has a large supply of mouthwash handy. Let me "Scope" it out and look in the Old "Testament"...or is it "Listermint"? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 544 Registered: 12-2003 |
Between exchanges of breath mints, I'll take a stab at addressing Melissa's question of the logic of God collecting breaths. Of course it's not logical. But, since "pneuma" in Greek and "ruah" in Hebrew mean "breath, wind, air," etc., interpreting man's spirit as breath is quite convenient because it removes any possibility that dead people can go anywhere before their names come in the Investigative Judgment. Further, as Dd touched on above, it also removes any chance that we might be influenced by our "feelings" or "impressions". Now, I'm the first to say that one's feelings can lead you WAY astray! Yet one's feelings and impressions are data about one's circumstances, and if a person is grounded in God's word so he knows God's will and truth, one's spirit will be able to respond to the Holy Spirit and convince us of truth in ways we cannot explain logically. Adventism would lose control of its members if they taught people that the Holy Spirit would confirm truth in their hearts as they read the Bible. Instead, they say truth is understood by the mind. And since we don't have a spirit, the mind must be the method! And, by the way, although they say the Holy Spirit is "the third person of the Godhead" (ever notice how Adventists hardly ever refer to the Trinity? It's almost always the "Godhead"...), in practice the Holy Spirit is not so much a person (He) as a force or power (it)--like, ummm--wind, or breath! Now, Adventists would argue with me; they would say the Holy Spirit is a Person--the third person of the Godhead! But I can't remember an Adventist ever referring to the Holy Spirit as He, only it. It's one of thoes things that my friend was referring to when she said it's not only what the church says that's twisted; it's also what they don't say. In Adventist practice, the Holy Spirit is quite impersonal, and it's something they pray that God will pour out on them as the latter rain. They are still waiting for "it" to really come in power. And, of course, if spirit were not merely breath, then the new birth would be something different than Adventists understand it to be. It really would be an event of change and power, not merely of assenting to new beliefs and goals. It really would change people and make truth come alive. Adventism really would be in great danger of exposure! Praise God for giving us spirits that are real and that know Him, and Praise the Holy Spirit for literally making Jesus real to us and for bringing us to brand new life! Colleen | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 94 Registered: 6-2004 |
Good show Colleen. I forgot about the "Godhead" formula that was used quite often. It's no surprise on how SDA's view the Holy Spirit because the Jehovah Witnesses have a very close belief about it being an active force rather than a actual person. And as for the "breath" issue...if that's all we are then you might as well follow the evolution theory. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 421 Registered: 7-2003 |
is this active force related to "life force"? B has some tapes on life force, and since everything else he has is SDA, I presumed that would be too?? | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 210 Registered: 5-2002 |
Melissa, EGW wrote about "life force". She claimed that every person has a set amount of "life force" given at birth and things like spices, exciting novels, and amusements, etc. deduct from this life force which shortens a person's life or, at best, leaves one exposed to diseases and sinful tendencies one would otherwise be able to withstand given the proper amount of life force. She advocated a mellow vanilla life because any stimulation would be using up your valuable life force. Late 1800's quack theory long-since disproven as so much hooey... EGW's writings on "life force" do not relate to the Holy Spirit as far as I know. It is related to her health reform writings. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 59 Registered: 7-2004 |
Speaking of "life force" (which I do not remember ever hearing about)...About 10 years ago, when I first read anything anti-EGW, I remember reading an EGW quote where she said something about meat-eating arousing animal passions (ie. desiring too much sex). Is this a correct memory? It seems so way out there and it is hard to believe a group of people with any thought processes would actually want the world to know this came from their esteemed leader. Maybe my memory is failing me? | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 18 Registered: 7-2004 |
Yes, Dd, that's certainly a correct memory. Here are a couple quotes I pulled off the official Ellen G. White website: "You place upon your tables butter, eggs, and meat, and your children partake of them. They are fed with the very things that will excite their animal passions, and then you come to meeting and ask God to bless and save your children. How high do your prayers go?" {CD 245.3} "By meat eating, the physical, mental, and moral powers are weakened. Man is built up from that which he eats. Animal passions bear sway as the result of meat eating, tobacco using, and liquor drinking." {CD 268.4} Looks like it was more than just meat eating that affects the animal passions! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 425 Registered: 3-2004 |
Dd, I remember that also about meat eating arousing animal passions. When some one jogs my memory bits and pieces return. Diana | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 138 Registered: 4-2000 |
The nineteenth-century "life force" theory that Ellen White embraced and wrote about, applied conveniently to the topic of self-abuse, secret vice, or masturbation. Ellen's first book on health reform (1864), "APPEAL TO MOTHERS: THE GREAT CAUSE OF THE PHYSICAL, MENTAL, AND MORAL RUIN OF MANY OF THE CHILDREN OF OUR TIME," warns that masturbators "are just as surely self-murderers as though they pointed a pistol to their own breast and destroyed their life instantly." The idea was that with each instance of masturbation it would further deplete the initial supply of "life force" given to each person. Interestingly, of all the case histories that Ellen White cites about masturbation, none of them ever overcame their propensity or practice of "secret vice." She declared that they all went into "Christless graves." Furthermore, this caused her to eventually refuse to pray for the sick. Deathbed confessions repeatedly acknowledged that masturbation had been a part of their lives. She wanted nothing to do with asking God to heal people that would just continue masturbating once they were well. Thus, their dying, not their healing, would be a blessing. Of all the books that are attributed to Ellen White, none of them came with a higher recommendation than "APPEAL TO MOTHERS." In the "INTRODUCTORY REMARKS" of "APPEAL TO MOTHERS" are found these pleading words by the trustees of the SDA Publishing Association, "It would perhaps be well for every member of the family to possess a copy for his or her own personal possession." Wow, what a challenge, every single member in an Adventist family should have this booklet denouncing masturbation. James White was embarrassed enough about this topic to later delete all the "I was shown" references denoting these visions as coming from the throne of God. Eventually, Ellen White never wrote another word about masturbaton. When her final book on health (The Ministry of Healing) was published, there was no reference to masturbation at all. Apparently, heaven was no longer concerned about this terrible scourge upon our society (smile). Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 427 Registered: 3-2004 |
I have to laugh at some of the EGW comments about meat eating. I guess she did not know how geese mate for life as do wolves and other of the animals. I also guess that God did not show her that He made sex. Or maybe it was not God who showed her these things???? It is amazing how God changed his mind and only told EGW!!! Now I am being sarcastic. I will stop. Everything God made is good, including SEX!!! Diana | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 97 Registered: 6-2004 |
Dennis, that was some story EGW wrote. The more I learn about this woman the more I'm amazed I actually believed her other claims regarding the Sabbath and soul sleep. I'm blown away how cold she was towards those who needed prayer while sick because of a masturbation theory she dreamed up, yet nothing is said about them possibly getting better and commiting adultery or fornication. Although there are a lot of topics she wrote about that the SDA's won't discuss openly because they are either outdated or too embarassing to bring up in front of a congregation. Imagine if EGW lived til 1977, she would have freaked when finding out about Yoda saying "may the force be with you". | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 422 Registered: 7-2003 |
What amazes me even more, Pw, is that even when hardcore SDAs are faced with this information, they turn every stone trying to defend her and her writings. I read an "Appeal to Mothers" on the web, but I'm not sure there are any original copies floating around the world. I'm sure they've long since found the dumpster. I used to quote some of the ridiculous statements from the Adventist Home to B and ask him to comment. He would just say a lot of editors have changed her original words to something out of context. He just can't accept she wrote the ridiculous things she said. I still remember him trying to tell me "studies" have been done that prove between meal snacks cause disease and death. Apparently, the stomach needs to rest between meals, not process snacks. It's the only system of muscles I know that gets weaker with use. | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 99 Registered: 6-2004 |
Melissa, it's another classic example of the blind leading the blind. They will defend EGW even when they know they are wrong, but will never admit to it because that would prove her to be a fraud. I know Adventists have a few hospitals around. I was wondering if anyone ever had to visit one and what their care was like. I'd be rather nervous if I ever had to be taken to one run by these people. | ||
| Ladylittle Registered user Username: Ladylittle Post Number: 42 Registered: 4-2004 |
'Appeal to Mothers' is still in print. |
