| Author | Message | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 19 Registered: 7-2004 |
Actually, I'll have to defend SDA hospitals, at least the larger ones I'm familiar with. In our area, the SDA hospital has the best reputation of any other hospital for excellent patient care. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 548 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dennis, thank you for the quotes above. Her "health reform" reminds me of the desperate attempts of a deeply wounded woman to purge herself and bring relief to a myriad of undiagnosable complaints that probably are psychosomatic symptoms of deep unresolved emotional (and maybe physical) wounds. Imagine the sense of control and power and even revenge she could have by discovering she was a "prophet" and able to ruin or exalt the people (especially men, it seems) in her life. I have pondered the fact that if one carefully follows Ellen's restrictions about food, one's life begins to look like it's controlled by an eating disorder, or at least by disordered eating. Focussing on what to eat, what not to eat, when to eat, how many times a day to eat, whether or not to drink with meals, how food should be prepared, what hidden ingredients must be eliminated, how many times a person must chew before swallowing, how far apart meals must be spaced, what foods to eat or not eat with each other--all these things look very much like classic eating disorder symptoms (or, as I said above, disordered eating symptoms. Disordered eating is a term for compulsive eating problems that fall a bit short of full-blown anorexia or bulemia, etc.) I knew a young woman who had many unresolved emotional problems in her life. As a coping mechanism, she began reading more and more EGW and adjusting her diet (among other things). Because EGW said people should only be eating about half of what they ate because they were gluttonizing, this woman cut her food intake in about half. As time went on and her problems became more obsessive, she cut her inake again. (She did, however, also have secret nighttime binges when everyone was asleep.) One day she took a long walk during the summer, and she actually died, apparently of exposure and heat. She had malnutrition symptoms, and she could not withstand the assault on her body. Sometimes I look around at the conservative Adventists I know, and I think, these people have such deep wounds from all kinds of life events that have never been resolved, and they have a prophet and a religion that approves eating disorders as a curative approach to the physical symptoms and the compulsive thoughts that plague them. It's just so sad--and it's so preventable. I find myself internally flaring up when I hear non-SDAs saying that at least the Adventist teachings on health are good. Adventists HIDE behind their "health message"! This very "health message" contributes to the ill-health of countless people, and it covers up a multitude of transgressions that go unresolved because everything is submerged beneath a pious, "health-conscious" compulsion to eat right to perfect one's holiness and one's "temple of the Holy Spirit" in order to be worthy of Him. Sorry--I think I was on my soapbox again! Praise God that he heals our wounds, wastes nothing that happens to us, and redeems everything we submit to him! Colleen | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 102 Registered: 6-2004 |
If EGW was so radical about how, what and when to eat certain healthy foods, why didn't she look like a supermodel? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 549 Registered: 12-2003 |
First of all, EGW didn't practice what she preached. Second, disordered eating only sometimes produces waifs. | ||
| Madelia Registered user Username: Madelia Post Number: 72 Registered: 2-2003 |
This weekend, I saw reading a book titled "Fasting Girls", which traces the history of anorexia nervosa from about the 1400s to the present. I was very interested in the chapter which discussed the culture and beliefs about food and eating in the 1800s. Physicians felt that vinegar was a "stimulant" to be avoided. Meat-eating was viewed as stirring up "animal passions" and was frowned upon for any genteel lady. Sound familiar?? There was even a brief reference to Seventh Day Adventism in the chapter. Colleen, what you said about an eating disorder, or disordered eating rings so true to me and what I see with my husband. No between-meal snacks, trying to just live on fruits, vegetables and soy milk, big concern about ingredients in everything. Yet, I've seen evidence when the rest of us are sleeping, he's been dipping into the cookies or graham crackers. I took my kids to a birthday party Sunday afternoon. Everyone there was SDA. The young women present were wearing their earrings, which they don't wear on Sabbath. One of the women was telling me about a recipe for a salsa or something, and said that non-SDA people from her country often add vinegar to it, but of course she doesn't. I played dumb and asked what was wrong with vinegar. She didn't really know, she'd just been told to avoid vinegar when she joined the church. Another woman in the group told me she was told it was because Jesus was offered vinegar to drink when he was on the cross. Interesting... | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 423 Registered: 7-2003 |
Colleen, you reminded me of a comment my neighbor made a couple of weeks ago. B went to a CHIPs program (something about cario health) put on by his church and since then he has further reduced what he will eat. B is very tall and skinny, and my neighbor asked me if he had been sick because he was looking almost deathly skinny these days. And it's true. He's quit eating almost anything but raw vegetables, fruits and "whole" grains. I don't know why he isn't starving all the time. He used to drink juice all the time, but they told him that was bad for him, so now all he will drink is water. He is so obsessed with "health". But I don't think he looks healthy (any more than EGW did). It's pretty frightening actually. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 61 Registered: 7-2004 |
My mother-in-law is big into CHIP. I figured, since the meetings are held at a SDA church in town, it had some EGW flavor to it. Is the whole program based on her writings only or is it based more on some writings plus REAL medical research? My MIL tells me it is not EGW but from years of research. Someone saw my MIL recently, who hadn't seen her in several years, and asked me if she has been sick ("...she looks so thin and old..."). | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 105 Registered: 6-2004 |
The vinegar theory is a new one to me. I still can't see the connection of how the SDA's consume items like cakes, cookies and pies when the ingredients consist of using eggs, butter and sugar...all condemned by EGW yet somehow are allowed when they have their get togethers. The inconsistencies are so numerous it's mind draining. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 424 Registered: 7-2003 |
Dd, B claims that their information is from real MDs who have spent years studying vegan communities where there is no heart disease. I've read some of these studies from non-SDA vegetarian sources and it seems the SDA perspective tends to be highly skewed data. For example, according to B, B12 is not that important and vegans get plenty without "needing" anything from animal sources. But I can't find a single non-SDA vegetarian source that will support that. Most vegetarian sources are highly sensitive to the problems with lack of B12. Here's a clip of an email he sent me partially expressing his anger for me "insisting" our son eat meat. It sets the tone of his CHIPs experience, I think: "...Now perhaps you could explain to me why I should be happy to see my son (or anyone else that I care about) eating food that is the primary contributor to heart disease and stroke. Since you claim (and I do believe that you feel this way) to want whatís best for Jonathan, why must you insist that he eat food that is not in his best interest. Sure, anyone can survive by eating animal products, but you can not give me ONE SINGLE GOOD REASON why anyone in this country should be made to eat it. The excessive use of animal products and other high-fat food is the leading cause of heart disease and stroke in this countryóthese diseases are NOT heredity, nor from lack of exercise. And these two diseases claim over 60% of the deaths in this country. Of course lack of exercise and heredity play a part in our susceptibility to death from heart disease and stroke, but they are NOT causes. But the average age of heart attach victims is getting lower in this country, and have crippled and killed even some of our top athletes, who are supposedly in top shape (even at ages as low as the mid twenties). In this country 10 year old children are already showing the signs of atheroschlerosis in their veins. Heart disease is not the disease of the old that it once was, and also it certainly is not ìnaturalî. And, it is completely and 100% lifestyle related. Animal products do NOT provide any nutrients, necessary or otherwise, that cannot be found in ample supply on a plant-based diet. Even vitamin B12, the ìholy grailî that you cling to as the reason why people MUST eat animals, is NOT generated by animals of any kind! Mammals donít produce it. Neither do birds or fish. B12 is ONLY produced by bacteria and it is absorbed by every animal from bacteria in the food that they eat and by bacteria already living in their systems. And while you certainly do get B12 from animal sources, there is mounting evidence that if we humans were to eat more raw or lightly cooked, unprocessed foods instead of over-cooking everything we eat, that we too would get all the necessary B12 that our bodies need. Even brushing our teeth (with the commercial toothpaste we usually useóand Iím not suggesting people stop brushing their teeth) is being seriously considered as a reason that we do not ingest very much B12 since the toothpaste and mouthwashes kill off the bacteria that produce the vitamin. There are documented thousands of vegans world-wide whoís longevity, sanity, and unspoiled genes can attest to the fact that you do not need animal sources to get enough B12. ... If you knew what I know (and Iím not believing the information given to me by any particular person but from the research of MANY people; people who have won international and presidential awards for their work in medicine and health science; people who have spent 30-40 years or more of their lives doing meticulous research on the populations of entire cities to determine cause and effect in relation to health; people who have discovered or researched particular diseases and disease demographics; people who are not fly-by-night snake oil salesmen; people who are well respected scientists and medical personnel and have actually done the research themselves; etc.) I honestly believe that you would seriously consider making some changes." I sent him several vegetarian-sponsored researches (a couple from Andrews university) that contradicted his claims about B12, but the evidence out there from the non-SDA vegetarian community isn't even credible to him any more. I don't know who these people are that are putting this study on, I saw the book and know they are SDA MDs from LLU, but they seem to have taken diet to a new extreme. I fear their tactics are as dangerous as Atkins or other diets that restrict food groups. But B is "dead serious" about it as you can probably sense in his words. It's funny, the national news talks about it once in a while and some of the stats he quotes are correct, but they don't boil it down to meat, but higher fat diets and lack of exercise. Apparenlty CHIPs does not buy into that information. I thought he was a fanatic before CHIPs, now he's just the extreme extremist. I very rarely eat with him or feed our son around him any more. He just wants to give him fruit alone (since most uncooked vegetables are too hard for him to chew). Last time we went to dinner, Jonathan was complaining so much my 11-year old reached over and gave him a chicken finger. Jonathan ate it down promptly much to his father's disappointment. My 11-year old felt bad because we have talked about not feeding Jonathan meat in front of B, but the child was so obviously hungry after a day of bananas and peaches. I told him not to worry about it and enjoy his dinner. I know he thinks I'm killing my children and myself. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 432 Registered: 3-2004 |
If you remember at SDA potlucks the dessert table was loaded with all kinds of items made with milk, eggs, sugar and butter. I used to wonder why, but never asked questions. It just did not make sense that God's "remnant" church did not follow the spirit of "prophecy". Now that I know the gospel, I understand it better. God did not do this, EGW, under the influence of a spirit, not of God did it and folks are still following her writings. How very sad. And I used to be one of them. Thank God he led me out. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 553 Registered: 12-2003 |
Melissa, I must admit I felt a bit of alarm when I read your post above. The CHIP program was the brain child of Dr. Hans Diehl, DHSc from Loma Linda. He is not a medical doctor--in fact, he tried but could not get admitted into medical school at Loma Linda for reasons not related to GPA, as I understand it. Consequently, he settled for "second best" and earned a Doctor of Health Science from the LLU School of Public Health. Determined to have an impact, he started a health newsletter (which we produced for him) and arranged to give health lectures wherever he could get bookings. He drew heavily from the Pritikin Diet and the research of Dr. Pritikin (I can't remember his first name right now--he was quite a big name in the late 80s-early 90s). Pritikin developed a vegan, whole-grain, limited-fat diet designed to treat heart disease. It was not designed for the general population--it was designed to Treat Heart Disease and hopefully to prevent heart attacks before they happened. While the diet had application for the general public--i.e. cutting down on animal fats and increasing fresh fruits /vegetables, it was very restricted and was quite effective in reversing a lot of heart disease. Another place Diehl got much information was from the Boston Health Letter. Of course, having Ellen's wonderful counsel gave Diehl even more authority as he put together his lectures and developed his own private "reversing heart disease" program. He worked with a local MD who no longer saw her own patients, and she was well-versed in the Wiemar NEWSTART program. They superimposed the Wiemar principles onto the Pritikin diet, (I'm simplifying a bit), and voila!--the CHIP program was born! (Cardiac Health Improvement Program...) Diehl would breeze into town after having the local church advertise him and conduct several nights worth of meetings which also included ladies doing vegan cooking demonstrations. He would have a doctor associate with him, and they'd check cholesterol levels and blood sugars. People would often be able to reduce their insulin intake and sometimes drastically lowered their cholesterol levels if they stuck to the program which included regular aerobic exercise, changing on's entire way of cooking (unless one were already an Adventist vegan), etc. Diehl billed himself as Dr. Hans Diehl, and often the people believed he was an MD. (I even saw a photo and article about one of his programs several years ago where he was named as an MD--generally, Diehl did not disabuse people of that idea.) His program has evidently grown. We quit doing his newsletter after a couple of years or so, and we didn't keep track of how it grew. I just know that CHIP turned out to be quite a success trip for Dr. Diehl, and he gained fame (or infamy) and probably some degree of fortune from it. He also had the advantage of hundreds of small-town Adventist churches from which to draw his eager audiences. I really don't remember what happened to Dr. Pritikin--he may have died, but I really don't remember since I put most of Diehl's stuff out of my mind after we quit doing his publication. The fact is that the restricted vegan diet was orignally designed to reverse heart disease and prevent heart attacks in at-risk people. Its principles of lowering animal fat and increasing exercise had great implications for all populations, but the diet itself was a treatment. What CHIP never tells its audience is that white meat (chicken, turkey), have almost 0 fat and low cholesterol, and many kinds of fish have omega-3 fatty acids that protect cardiac health. Further, babies under 2 years of age must eat a fairly high percentage of fat (I can't remember exact how much) in order for their brains/nervous systems to finish developing properly. Melissa, I continue to pray for you re: how to relate to B. I'll be honest; he sounds difficult at best if not a bit scary. There are so many places in the NT where it says God declared all foods clean or good for food. The minute we make diet THAT important, we are definitely worshiping another god and living a completely carnal life. Carnality is about living for the flesh, and that can be either indulgent or restrictive. Either way, it's all about our bodies. With prayers for you, Colleen | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 20 Registered: 7-2004 |
I have a relative who claims a public school contracted with CHIP to change the cafeteria food to be entirely CHIP-based. Besides the difficulty of verifying this story, I would first of all have to wonder about the legality of only providing, in a non-private school, a diet that is meant as a treatment to reverse heart disease. Supposedly, the results from this school is that there is no longer any vandalism and virtually no behavioral problems. My response was that if so, it probably has more to do with eliminating junk food than eliminating meat! | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 63 Registered: 7-2004 |
Colleen, thanks for the great info. I have a SDA "friend" who has been a die hard EGW vegan/health nut for years. Recently her mother was diagnosised with Parkinsons Disease. She went into overdrive research looking at diet and how it relates to this disease. She was greatly surprised to find a study (and I thought she told me it was out of Loma Linda but I can't remember) that showed a high incidence of Parkinsons and Alzheimer (sp?) Disease in vegetarians and in particular vegans due to the lack of B12! She found enough supporting data to convince her to start eating fish and chicken and an occasional steak! I was shocked! This "friend" is an EGW of my generation (she can quote more EGW than Bible texts!). She is the one who said, when she learned I was going to church on Sunday, "You can't do that!! They are not God's children!!!" My husband and I rarely eat meat. It has nothing to do with our SDA background - it is just personal preference. Recently we both had extensive medical check-ups. We both have low iron levels. There is a reason God told Noah to eat meat (Gen. 9:3). He knew our nutritional needs long before EGW thought she knew better. Melissa, I will try and see if I can contact my "friend" to find out more info on this study she told me about. It sounds like you need this information. BTW, I am too new to the forum to know your history. Were you not raised SDA? Is B your husband? I am praying for you and whatever the situation is. You are in a very tough spot. B needs prayers but I believe you need to be lifted up for strength and endurance in Jesus who is able and delights to give us the desires of our hearts when we depend on Him with complete trust for all our needs. May God flood you with His grace. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 830 Registered: 11-2002 |
I'm currently on the seefood diet. I see food and I eat it. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 21 Registered: 7-2004 |
There are studies that show more Alzheimers among vegetarians/vegans because of B-12 deficiency, but there are also studies that show more Alzheimers among heavy meat eaters because of plaque build-up in arteries. It seems to me MODERATION is the watchword here. Of course there's genetics as well. My dad (who died almost 2 years ago) had Alzheimers and Parkinsons. My parents have been vegetarians most of their life, and vegans for probably the last 15-20 years. My mom read something about cow milk contributing to Alzheimers, and so she thought since my dad had a weakness for that and would occasionally have cow milk even as a vegan, maybe that was the culprit. I just don't think anyone should be so obsessed with having the perfect diet. Moderation in all things will help the most, and genetics takes care of the rest. | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 272 Registered: 7-2000 |
Susan--ditto! If it isn't running fast enough.... Melissa, your 'B' is becoming a nut! Coronary Artery Disease actually IS hereditary to a great extent. Further, there is plenty of butter and other fats to cause the disease in SDA's. I've known quite a few who have had heart attacks/strokes that have either killed them or disabled them. A very good friend of mine, an SDA minister and vegetarian recently went for a physical. His triglycerides were 2800! It was too high to count his cholesterol and he will be on Lipitor for the rest of his life. The EGW diet didn't save him and his problem is hereditary. On the other hand, I eat whatever I want and my cholesterol has never been over 140! I suspect though, that trying to show 'B' these facts would be a waste of time as his mind is probably closed tighter than a steel trap. Bill | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 425 Registered: 7-2003 |
Dd, my story is complex, but simple. I met B at work 5 years ago and was completely ignorant to adventism. Of course, he was not very forthcoming and by the time I discovered EGW and the whole host of other things we were too involved. We are not married, but lived together for a brief period of time. When I repented and asked him to leave and started to move on with my life, I discovered i was pregnant. Terrified, I called him. I usually regret that I ever did because he came back with a vengence. The relationship is tenuous most of the time and adversarial at others. I can't tell you all the things God has taught me through this circumstance, but I feel bad that my son was born into a doctrinal battleground. So far, I have not allowed B to take Jonathan to church and he has complied very unwillingly. But I give him ample time other than Saturdays that fulfill the state's required visitation guidelines. I have 2 other children from my marriage. My daugher (14) is retarded and has challenges of her own. She is living in a state-run program where she lives with a family trained in behavior disorders (autism, obsessive compulsive, etc.) because I just couldn't manager her as a single parent (and the help B was in the beginning was diminishing quickly). That was the hardest decision I had to make, but I knew I would never be able to get B out of my life as long as I "needed" him to help with her and frankly, I just couldn't manager her behaviors and help my other son have some sort of "normal" childhood too. All in all it was a crisis point in my life and it put me in a tail spin that took quite a while to catch my breath. But God was faithful to me. I even remember him telling me my son's name would be Jonathan. And when he was born and I asked B what he was thinking of in terms of names, he said Stephen or Jonathan...and I knew God wanted Jonathan...so that's what it is. I knew God wanted me to move on....the relationship was most definately wrong, but I'm tied to B in a unique way too because of our son. I have been guilted into a lot of things because this is B's only child after years of infertility in other marriages. While on maternity leave last summer, I found this site and what an oasis it has been. God is so good to me. He has taken care of my every situation so far. I am constantly reminded of his promptings before I knew I was pregnant when I was going through my repentance phase and have had to realize God knew all along I was pregnant even though I didn't, so his forgiveness wasn't conditional on my unknowns, but made those conversations we had that much more meaningful. I can truly say God is my most trusted confidant, but this forum gives me special SDA insight I wouldn't have access to otherwise. It is one of those special gifts God has given me to help guide me in this situation to decifer truth from adventism. B's dad and uncle are both SDA ministers and his grandparent's are as hardcore as I've seen....watching the pope's every move for the Sunday law. Colleen, thanks so much for the info about CHIPs. I just thought he'd gone off the deep end. I knew what he was doing couldn't possibly be "healthy", but didn't have the time or energy to research it myself. Funny thing is, when they did his cholesterol numbers before and after, though his overall cholesterol number had gone down (after a month on this "diet"), his bad cholesterol number had actually gone up. I don't know how other programs are run, but his had a "physical" in the beginning, then they had a month of meeting 4-5 times per week, eating dinner together those evenings and exercising, then at the end of the month, they did another "physical" which was nothing more than blood work to check numbers. They used those Diehl books and gave them cookbooks. Their motto is "healthy by choice, not by chance". Makes me roll my eyes. My step-mom worked at KU medical center for a while and she said some of the ER docs refused organic foods because the fertilizers they use can contain high content of e-coli and if not washed thoroughly can make one very sick. B won't hear that and insists he can eat organic food right from the shelf without washing it at all because there aren't any chemicals on them. She also has told me of people who have problems on these no fat diets because your body does need some fat. But again, B's information is better than any doctor's who has been educated by a poor medical school (any non-sda facility). B feeds Jonathan 3 times per week. The rest of the time, I do or his sitter does. He is not on a vegetarian diet by any means and because of my retarded daughter, I'm very conscienscious of his developmental milestones. But on the days B is around all day (like Sunday afternoons when he gets Jonathan for 6 hours), it gets tough because he just won't feed him adequately, so I end up giving him something (thankfully, he doesn't take him elsewhere usually because his house is unfit and is 30 minutes away, so he tends to stay around my house with him). I am continually amazed to see how God uses this forum and the others around me to answer all my questions and keep me and my family from harm. Wish I had been as tuned in 5 years ago... As someone else is fond of saying "God is awesome". | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 65 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thanks for sharing Melissa. I, too, am grateful for God leading me to this forum and to new friends like you. 1 John 1:7 tell us if we walk in the Light we have fellowship with one another. That tells me what you said is true. God leads us to people that can encourage us in His REAL truths. I am very grateful, also, for Colleen and Richard listening to the Holy Spirit's prompting and setting this forum up so that we can all have fellowship with one another in His Light! In case I don't say it enough -- thank you C & R! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 437 Registered: 3-2004 |
Melissa, Thanks for telling us about yourself. I can see it is very painful for you and your baby when his Dad is around. I remember reading in EGW, about the time I had my son, that we should eat only 2 times a day. I breast fed my son and he ate when he was hungry. So when he started eating food I thought it was cruel to deprive a growing child from food he needed. So I disregarded EGW. Looking back that was God who was talking to me. I am so glad God led me to this forum also. I spend a lot of time just lurking and reading. I have learned so much about the Bible and about the church I left. I did not realize it was such a cult and so unBiblical. I learn everyday how unbiblical it is. Thank God he took me out of it a little at a time and the final push was after January of this year. Colleen and Richard, you two are a real blessing to all of us for setting up this forum. We have a place to come and talk to each other about all kinds of things. Thank you so very much. You two are part of the reason I say God is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 426 Registered: 7-2003 |
Bill, I missed your post before....you crack me up. I know B is "wacko" and logic escapes most of what he does, but he sincerely thinks he is being a "good adventist" ... working out his salvation the way adventism teaches him he should. In some ways, he seems very shallow...though he will insist he personally researches everything adventism teaches. Besides, I wasn't particularly in the sanest place in the world when I first encountered him either...people don't tend to reach out to others with special needs kids and we tend to be in a desert socially. I hear that people who spend too much time in a desert see mirages of water. I guess that is what I saw. Because B's mom has MS and is wheelchair bound, his ability to empathize with my daughter meant I didn't have to carry the burden alone (or so I mistakenly thought)... at least for a while. Hind sight is 20/20. But thank you for continually pointing out my character judgement flaws... :-). But that is why I have tried to be blunt with our friend Hrobinsonw...hint, hint, hint! See the potholes in the road ahead...one of them might swallow you whole! |
