| Author |
Message |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 641
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 11:25 am: |     |
I agree! It's another Adventist church plant that won't call itself Adventist. I've no idea if it's "official" or not--as in Conference sponsored--but it's Adventist. The Discovery Bible School lessons they are promoting are by Voice of Prophecy. (That may be the page where you saw a sponsor, Diana.)
I looked at some of their archived newsletters, and they are sharing their core beliefs--and they're really vague. There's a lot of talk about "not giving up on God", but the focus is more on finding fellowship and acceptance with a group than about knowing Jesus personally.
Here are a bunch of people who know they need something they don't have, but they need freedom from an enslaving set of beliefs so they can find Jesus--and they don't see their enslavement. It brings me back to our weekly prayer--these are some more people we can pray for.
Colleen |
Tealeaves
Registered user
Username: Tealeaves
Post Number: 163
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 11:33 am: | |
So did anyone read through the "bible lessons" on the link from that site? I didn't see any mention of Sabbath anywhere, but I just skimmed it briefly.
Maybe this is like the Mormons, when they come to your door and tell you all the things that their church endorses that sound normal, but leave out the part about there being many gods, and you too can become a god someday etc.... |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 642
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 5:04 pm: | |
Sabbath always come later in Adventist Bible studies and evangelistic meetings. First you get them hooked into basic "Christianity", then you bring in the distinctives.
Sigh.
Colleen |
Tealeaves
Registered user
Username: Tealeaves
Post Number: 164
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 5:19 pm: | |
I emailed the contact person for that "Springs" church site. They said that "yes, they are decidedly SDA." They also said that about 1/3 of the people that go to their sevices are unchurched, and mostof the others are people who come are people who have been burned by the whole "church experience" in the past.
They sound like they are growing. Maybe we should add to them to our prayer list. To pray simply that God's Will will be done in their ministry.
If God uses them to bring people unto Himself, great. Perhaps as they follow God, they will find themselves led away from the unique SDA doctrines, as many other evangelical SDA churches have been,. At any rate, God knows better than any of us. I will be praying for them.
-tanya- |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 156
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 8:19 pm: | |
Here are excerpts of an email I received today from the SDA Pastor Gary Walter(Colorado Springs, Co area)that calls his new church COMMON GROUND of all names: (1) "...we are more interested in leading people to Christ than we are in adding to the membership ranks of our denomination." (2) "Rarely, as you read the Bible, will you find Jesus loudly proclaiming who He is or what He is doing. Most of the time, after helping people, He tells them to not tell anyone. He is more interested in doing good things and being Jesus that He is in telling people what He did or who He is. We're trying to follow that example--we are very interested in reaching people without scaring them away first." (3) "I hope this helps--let me know what you think...." (Pastor Gary Walter; e-mail: savinglives@earthlink.net)
Wow, makes one seriously wonder if he ever read Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. In addition to a very brief message, I sent him a one-page Sabbath position paper by Dr. Woodrow Kroll.
Interestingly, the last time that the Colorado Conference tried to plant an SDA church for the unchurched, the result was GRACE PLACE. Praise God!
Dennis J. Fischer |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 532
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 9:32 pm: | |
Isn't Grace Place a church that left the SDA denomination? Isn't the minister Clay Peck? God works in mysterious ways.
One thing I noticed, after God removed my EGW blinders, was all about Jesus doing His Father's
will and saying so throughout the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. I did not see it until after those blinders were removed.
Diana |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 111
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 10:08 pm: | |
Dennis,
I received the same email from Gary Walter today.
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Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 157
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 10:19 pm: | |
Flyinglady,
Yes, Grace Place is in Berthoud, CO where Clay Peck is the pastor. At one time, Clay reports, the Colorado Conference wanted to shut down Grace Place solely because it offered coffee to worshippers. The major grind later was with money--congregational church style.
Needless to add, without receiving tithes and offerings the Conference quickly loses its stranglehold of control over members.
Dennis J. Fischer |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 461
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 6:49 am: | |
I am fascinated that he thinks proclaiming the truth of their name/association would "scare people away". Other denominations don't worry their name will scare people.... |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 645
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 11:15 am: | |
Really good point, Melissa. Historically, the name HAS scared people away. There must be a reason...?!
Well, I'm going to email Gary Walter today and see if I get the same email response! I'm glad you sent the Kroll position paper, Dennis. Let us know if he responds! I also noticed the de ja vue feeling of Common Ground after watching Grace Place in Colorado.
Colleen |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 112
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 11:37 am: | |
Dennis and Colleen,
Where can I find this one page position statement from Dr. Kroll? And who is Dr. Kroll? Sounds interesting. I just my Greg Taylor book today! I am headed to school early to sit in my car and read (outside of the SDA school!  ). I think that is an awesome book to send on to Pastor Walter...I can tell already I will be ordering more copies! I will respond to G. Walter later today. |
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking
Post Number: 278
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 4:11 pm: | |
Well, folks need to be scared away from Common Ground!
What's amazing is that SDA's always retreat into examples of what Jesus did that don't fit the situation at hand. What is really interesting is that the gospels were written AFTER Paul had written several of his letters. So, the gospels have to be read in light of the new covenant teaching as that is what the gospels were intended to support---read Lukes' intro as an example.
I'm also amazed at the idea that "...we are more interested in leading people to Christ than we are in adding to the membership ranks of our denomination."
Really? I should ask- So you don't receive tithe funds based on your membership? You don't baptize into the SDA church? You don't teach that the SDA church is the remnant church? You don't teach that Saturday is the Sabbath and the seal of God?
GET REAL AND TELL ME SOMETHING I CAN BELIEVE!
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Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 159
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 10:31 pm: | |
Dd,
Simply send me an email and I will send you an attachment of the Sabbath position paper by Dr. Woodrow Kroll, Director/Speaker of the BACK TO THE BIBLE INTERNATIONAL RADIO MINISTRIES headquartered here in Lincoln, Nebraska USA. My email address is: dennisfischer@alltel.net.
Dennis J. Fischer
PS: Anyone wanting the above document can email me for the attachment to be sent to you immediately. It is entitled "SHOULD THE CHRISTIAN OBSERVE THE SABBATH?" --DJF
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Tealeaves
Registered user
Username: Tealeaves
Post Number: 170
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 11:25 am: | |
Perhaps Common Ground does in fact just want to share the Gospel with people. Perhaps that church is actually in the business of bringing people to Christ, and not only to Adventism.
Is there any direct information that would lead us to doubt Gary Walters when he says that?
I am just as uncomfortable with the unique SDA doctrines as anyone else here. But I do think that there are some Gospel-oriented SDA churches out there. (although I never have been able to figure out how they hang on to the SDA doctrines and sidestep legalsim at the same time.)
While I do absolutely think that they should announce the denomination they represent, they do in fact stick to the Gospel, from what I saw, on their website.
Is it possible or probable that they wind legalism into their ministry further on down the road? Maybe. But we can't know that for sure.
They seem to be have a heart for God. Perhaps we could pray for them, that their hearts will be open to Christ, that He will lead their ministry, and reach people for Christ. that He will show them, as He shows us all, the Truth of Jesus Christ. God knows theit hearts, as He knows ours. I will be praying for His will to be brought about in that ministry. |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 7
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 11:37 am: | |
Tealeaves,
I agree with you! Very good idea to pray for them to follow Christ as He leads.
helovesme2 |
Tealeaves
Registered user
Username: Tealeaves
Post Number: 171
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 2:12 pm: | |
God's will is always a good thing to pray for, since He ALWAYS knows better than us! :o)
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 653
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 4:32 pm: | |
I agree. I've emailed Gary Walter and received an interesting reply which I will answer. I don't feel free to share it here at this time, but I will say this: I believe he really wants to share Jesus. I also believe that he is deceived (yes, there's that word again) by Ellen's Great Controversy scenario which completely skews one's understanding of who God is.
There is great power in prayer, and the Holy Spirit often teaches us in ways we would never expect to be taught. Clay Peck also believed he could truly teach Jesus in an Adventist church and meet people's needs, but eventually that just didn't work any more--and not because Clay got tired of dealing with the church.
Your prayer, Tanya, is a good one. I join you in it!
Colleen |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 534
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 7:13 pm: | |
I tried 2 times to email the site and my email came back to me, so I will change my tactic and pray for them. Prayer has much power. So I will put them in my daily prayers and on Friday evening and Saturday at 1 PM.
Diana |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 535
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 7:19 pm: | |
I sent 2 email to the website and both got sent back to me. I will change my tactic and join those in praying for this group. Let us remember them also on Friday at sundown and Saturday at 1 PM as well as in my daily prayers.
Diana |
Cindy
Registered user
Username: Cindy
Post Number: 649
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 6:38 am: | |
Tanya/Tealeaves and others,
I would agree there are some gospel-oriented Adventist churches--at least certain members and pastors--out there. Unfortunately, if they are at all part of the SDA organization, and honest with themselves, there is no way they can't bring legalism into the picture eventually---it's just inherently part of Adventist doctrine!
At some point in time those truly seeking Jesus will have to choose honesty over denominational loyalty...and move out of Adventism.
I remember in '97 or '98, I think, my husband coming back from a Pastor's meeting in Ocean City, MD where Richard Fredericks (then an Adventist pastor, but now a non-denominational one) spoke on the Cross of Christ. It was so good, so grace-filled!... and so anti-Adventist remnant/Sabbath-keeping belief!
My husband said it would be only a matter of time before Fredericks was out--which was true a few months later.
At that time we also believed in Jesus' sufficiency, but ended up taking a more convoluted escape from Adventisms' mind-control tactics. So I understand completely there are many searching, Christ-led people inside Adventism.
Our idea of praying for them is good. God knows each one's heart; and the timing is in His hands.
I just fear for those who may get entangled in Adventist doctrine along the way...Getting out of it later is no small thing...
Perhaps encouraging the pastor and leaders in this group to look squarely at Adventist doctrine in the light of our being COMPLETE ALREADY IN JESUS--no need for being a part of a special remnant "church", no need of worshipping on a special "day", no need of having a "lesser light" for authority, no need to have a 1844 investigation, no need to abstain from certain foods, etc., etc...
The shadows are gone now, our REALITY is here!Trusting in Jesus, we have His Spirit to give us all good things!
grace always,
cindy
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 663
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 9:38 am: | |
Cindy, as always you said it so well. It is absolutely true (although sometimes it sounds arrogant to say it) that an Adventist who has discovered the gospel and understands the cross of Christ and His finished work will eventually be confronted with Adventism and will have to choose between loyalty to the denomination or loyalty to Jesus only.
I know there are many Christ-following Adventists, but God is continuing to reveal Himself to them. And, as you said, "the timing is in His hands."
Richard Fredericks and Clay Peck are two examples of Adventists who truly loved Adventism and truly loved Jesus. They eventually had to choose between Adventism and Jesus. I know there are many stories circulating about how and why those men left Adventism, but in interveiwing each of them during the times of their leaving/firings, I know that the real choice for each of them was clear: Jesus and the gospel or Adventism. They couldn't hold onto both and remain Adventist pastors.
The shadows ARE gone now, as you said, Cindy! Praise God for the reality of Jesus. He is our all-in-all.
Colleen |
