| Author | Message | ||
| Vchowdhury1 Registered user Username: Vchowdhury1 Post Number: 13 Registered: 7-2004 |
In my last post, I think I started this thread in the wrong area. I meant to start a new discussion, so I will repost this here. In my extensive study of EGW, to my dismay, I found out that she was not only a false prophet, but also a racist. Case & Point, she wrote: "The colored people should not urge that they be placed on an equality with white people. The relation of the two races has been a matter hard to deal with, and I fear that it will ever remain a most perplexing problem. I know that if we attempt to meet the ideas and preferences of some of the colored people, we shall find our way blocked completely. The work of proclaiming the truth for this time is not to be hindered by an effort to adjust the position of the Negro race. Should we attempt to do this we should find that barriers like mountains would be raised to hinder the work that God desires to have done. If we move quietly and judiciously, laboring in the way that God has marked out, both white and colored people will be benefited by our labors." (Testimonies for the Church, Volume Nine, page 214 paragraph 3-page 215 paragraph 0.) "I think I have already written that the colored people should not urge that they be placed on an equality with white people.--Letter 202, 1903, p. 2. (To J. E. White and wife, September 11, 1903.)" (Manuscript Releases, Volume Four, page 23, paragraph 2.) "The Lord desires His people in the North to maintain a kindly attitude toward the colored brethren and sisters. We should not be hasty in finding fault with them. We cannot expect them to be in all respects like those who have enjoyed greater advantages. We should remember the disadvantages under which the colored people have lived. Far different from the surroundings of the white race have been their surroundings. The Northern people have lived in a clearer, purer moral atmosphere than have the colored people of the South. We cannot expect that, in all things, they will be as firm and clear in their ideas of morality. Were Christ on earth today, He would teach the Negro race in a way that would surprise us. He calls upon us to remember that even those who have had great advantages in many things often feel hurt if their errors are unduly noticed and if words of counsel and admonition are spoken in an unsympathetic manner." (Testimonies for the Church, Volume Nine, page 223 paragraph 3-page 224 paragraph 0.) (SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME, DID AFRICAN AMERICAN SDA's MISS THIS SOMEHOW)??? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 550 Registered: 12-2003 |
Add to that her statements about "certain races of men" being an amalgamation of man and beast--The next edition of Proclamation will have the second half of Jeffrey Helsius's resignation letter, and this is one of the quotes he deals with. You're right, Vchowdhury1! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 434 Registered: 3-2004 |
WOW!!! I was only familiar with the quote I read some where in her writings about the slaves who did not know about Christ, when they died, will be as if they never existed when Jesus comes. My brother is married to a black lady and found that one. I think that is what started him on researching the Bible and he studied himself out of the SDA church. I did not know about the quotes above. I am of the opinion she was racist. I have to tell you about an MD who worked where I worked when I was still SDA in Alexandria, VA. He saw me in a hall between buildings one day. I remember him telling me that the white people have there churches, the black people their churches and the spanish speaking their churches and they ought to go to their own churches. Well I am of Mexican descent, but I was not raised speaking spanish. So I replied to the dear man, "Doctor, I am obviously not white and not black and I do not speak spanish. Which church should I attend?" Now up to this time he and his wife would ask me to sing with them when they sang special music in church. After this conversation they quit talking to me. After finding out about EGW I cannot understand how anyone could still be an SDA and defend her. God deserves more then that. That is not God. It is from another influence, demonic. God is awesome. Diana | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 826 Registered: 11-2002 |
Years ago I mentioned some of this trash to my cousin (white) who is sda when her white sda friend was in the process of adopting a little black child. I told my cousin I had no issues with an inter-racial adoption but when the child got older and learned what her own religion teaches about her, well, there could be some very hurt feelings, especially with betrayl and those sorts of emotions. My cousin told me mrs. white absoutely did not mean those statements how her detractors interpert them. That mrs. white was best friends with Sojourner Truth and if egw was racist then her and Sojourner Truth would not have been such close friends. She also told me Sojourner Truth wanted to become sda but died before she got the opportunity to. Years ago at campmeerting was a multi-cultural display of sda's throughout the history of sda'ism. They had a picture up of Sojourner Truth. I have always wondered if there is any Truth to these allegations. Hey, thast was a good play on words, even if I do have to give myself the credit. However, in all fairness the SDA churches I attended were very racial and ethnically mixed. I always figured it was that the denomination just put the churches in locations where they would have attendents and if the region servied by that church was mixed then the church body would be mixed. Where my mom attends the racial mix of the church is great. Several mixed-race couples, several Hispanic families, several Hawaii'an families, several Filipino families, several black families, and your regular variety of white people from various hertiages. Sure makes for good potlucks! | ||
| Grace_g Registered user Username: Grace_g Post Number: 23 Registered: 7-2004 |
I don't agree with EGW's quotes, and I find racial bigotry to be absolutely abhorrent. But, I do think we do have to be mindful of the context of the times in which she wrote them. In her first quote, I interpret her as saying let's not be involved in anything that will hinder our efforts to promote the church first. It's too bad that she couldn't or wouldn't add an expression of how she herself felt about race, or advocate for racial equality. Then we could better determine her position. To give some context, read the quote below, from someone who is often promoted as an advocate for racial equality. Notice he does add his personal position on race; but yet still advocates change. " I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and the black races. There is a physical difference between the two, which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position. I have never said anything to the contrary, but I hold that, notwithstanding all this, there is no reason in the world why the negro is not entitled to all the natural rights enumerated in the Declaration of Independence, the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." -- Abraham Lincoln, August 21, 1858 in the first Lincoln/Douglas Debate http://www.nps.gov/liho/debate1.htm | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 110 Registered: 6-2004 |
Don't be so surprised at EGW remarks about the black race. Joseph Smith (founder of the Mormons) went so far to say that they were the descendents of Cain because that was what the mark represented, his skin color was changed. Of course this theory had to be changed once the NAACP approached this concept and was removed due to political pressure. My point is, racism in Christianity has no place because the great commission was to preach the good news to every tribe, nation and tongue. I don't care what the time era was, that's a poor excuse when it comes to loving our brethen in the body around the world. By their fruits you will know them...and EGW was rotten to the core. | ||
| Vchowdhury1 Registered user Username: Vchowdhury1 Post Number: 14 Registered: 7-2004 |
Pw, I agree with your points. All my years as an SDA I have heard the lame excuse for EGW writings in regards to Racism, Health, etc., that we should "consider the times in which she lived". I think this is such non-sense considering the fact that "in her times" there were also abolitionist that literaly put their lives and freedoms on the line to speak up against slavery and racism, and people that actually put their lives and freedoms on the line for women's rights (Susan B. Anthony, etc.). Abraham Lincoln, even though I have no doubt his faithfulness to the Lord, was a politician first, and not a religious leader. He even said that "If keeping slavery will preserve the Union, he will keep it. If getting rid of slavery will preserve the Union, he will get rid of it". So, preserving the United States was Lincoln's greatest priority as President(not to say that anything is wrong with this at all from a political standpoint). Plus, his views on race were his own personal opinion not inspired by God. Since EGW was supposed to be "inspired" by God, you would think that she and her followers should be the first ones to speak out against slavery and racism which is blatanly WRONG, and against the will of God. It seems like to me that they laid low on this issue because to speak about it will hinder them from bringing the "white people" into the message which was their priority (I thought God was no respector of persons). And you're right, all the apostles, disciples, and ministers in the Bible DID NOT have the agenda that they should convert the majority race FIRST. They preached to whoever would listen (John the Baptist, Paul, Luke, etc). Remember Jesus said ..."Whosoever will, come". | ||
| Grace_g Registered user Username: Grace_g Post Number: 25 Registered: 7-2004 |
VC, You bring up a good point about the rhetorical difference and impact in Lincoln's words, as a politican, and EGW, who claimed to be a prophet. I am so far from accepting her as a prophet now that I no longer have the ability to anaylze her words in the context of where she is in the church. I think it's a step up for me, but parsing her role has become harder. Grace | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 112 Registered: 6-2004 |
Bottom line is...times have changed but people haven't. Racism has always been around and still shows it's ugly face today. Sadly in many churches as well. I recall the SDA church I went to was bascially all white while not far away was a black SDA church. This was in Cocoa, Florida in 1985-86. So much for harmony between races. | ||
| Doug_s Registered user Username: Doug_s Post Number: 62 Registered: 7-2004 |
Provided Jesus doesn't come in the next 200 years, will society look back at us and judge us fairly for how we treat one another? Do we not speak to our times? How one race treats another today, I suspect, will be different in 200 years. Hopefully, they will treat each other better than we. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 833 Registered: 11-2002 |
I will share this story with you. It happened last November. I was in Hawaii for nearly two months. Before I left I asked my mom if there was anything she wanted from me while I was in Hawaiil. I ment like a pineapple or a moomoo, or some c.d.'s of Hawaii'an music but that's not how I worded my question so her response to me was that she wanted me to visit a SDA church while I was there. So, doing the honorable thing, that is just what I did. We found the Puna SDA church and went there one Saturday morning. There was one mixed race couple there (husband white, wife black) and one white couple there with a small daughter and one Simoian lady. Other than this the entire congregation was all ethnic Hawaii'an. Then several weeks later I ran into a SDA man in town. I told him I'd visited the Puna church. He told me the church used to be very racially and ethnically mixed but several years ago it had just gotten to the point that the groups could no longer deal civily with each other. The white people and the Japanese that attended there switched to going to the Hilo church. The Simoians began their own congreation except the one Simoian lady who refused to switch because she lives very close to the church and the white couple and the mixed-race couple didn't want to get sucked into the racial problems so they just mind their own business and keep attending the Puna church. Then he told me the crazies attend the Puna church and he thinks the conference should eliminate that church from the main body, the organization of Seventh-day Adventist churches. Frankly, it probably was the closest to being a "real sda church" of any sda church I've ever been to. I was told that nearly all the adults who attend there are illeterate so that explained how come the preacher could preach a sermon stright from EGW and Joe Crews and tell the congreation it was Bible. This was the week before Holloween. His sermon was weird. He told the congreation they'd best not have anything to do with Holloween, that it is a celebration of evil spirits. Knowing the Hawaii'an religion is very spirit oriented I figured he was appealling to their ancient religious practices of humoring the spirits with goodies, etc. But, then he said no ture Christian would have anything to do with Holloween because if a Christian paretisipates in Holloween God will strike the person dead, right then and there. Then, not to miss a beat, he said, "Now I know what you are all thinking. You are wondering 'then how come when I get up on Nov. 1st I don't see dead people laying allover the roads?" Well, satan is very clever and he protects his own. No real Christian would ever take part in Holloween so satan knows that those professing to be Christians who take part in Holloween never really were Christians to begin with but are his. I said God will strike dead only REAL Christians who take part in Holloween." Then he admonished the congreation to stay home on Holloween and to not open their doors to anyone. O.K., that was weird enough but the truly weirdest part was yet to come. Our friend, Patsy took us to church with her. She is full-blood. Her term for being ethnically Hawaii'an. We were at her mercy. We had no clue how to get back to town. This church is way out in the jungle and is only accessable by going on dirt roads cut through the jungle. Me and my sons were sitting at the table waiting for potluck. A lady came and sat directly across from us. She loked me stright in the eyes and said, "Why did you come to our church?" I told her we were from California, that I'd been raised SDA and we were on vacation and wanted to visit a SDA church. I also told her we were friends of Patsy's and that we came that day with Patsy. Then she looked me right in the eye again and wagged her index finger just in front of my face and said, "It's not right to come just for the food." I get kind-of panicky, my kids suggested we wait at the car for Patsy because we thought we might get beat up. Just at the right moment the Simonian lady came to our rescue and told the lady to leave us alone and to give us the benefit of the doubt and that as visitors we were welcome to stay and eat. It was a very tribal kind of church, nothing like I'd ever before experienced. The minister would not shake our hands as we passed him after the service was over. Me and my kids each extended our hands and he put his behind his back and we walked on. I think it was a race thing with him. The young white couple with the little girl looked right out of EGW's era. The man had on high trousers with pleats and button suspenders. The lady, in that dreadful Hawaii'an heat and humidity had on an old fashioned dress with a neck that went up the top of her neck. The dress was not modern. It hung nearly to her ankles and she had on a bonnet. They looked so miserable in that heat. I heard the name of Jesus in a hymm that was sung and then again in the closing prayer the minister ended "In the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spitit, Amen". Those were the only two references to Jesus. Then when I got home my mom asked me if I went to a SDA church like I'd told her I would. I told her I did. I had planned on not saddening her with the details but she pressed the issue in wanting to hear all about going to the church there. So, I told her the story. Then I told her I'd also attended the very first ever Christian organized church In Hawaii, Congreational and that I'd attended the local Baptist church three times and the Catholic church several times and the other churches were normal. And, that, my friends, is the true story of my attendence at the Puna SDA church last Nov. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 559 Registered: 12-2003 |
Wow, Susan--what an eerie experience! I can understand why you felt a bit panicky! It sounds really oppressive to me. | ||
| Vchowdhury1 Registered user Username: Vchowdhury1 Post Number: 15 Registered: 7-2004 |
Susan, the church member's behaviors were weird! Even by SDA standards. They seem down right "wacko". Do you think they just weren't used to any visitors at all? But the minister should be ashamed. Maybe the congregation took their cue from him. By the contents of his sermon, he sounds like he wasn't "wrapped to tight" by any standard. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 834 Registered: 11-2002 |
In the lobby of the church was a literature rack. Every piece of literature on the rack was either egw stuff or Joe Crews stuff. I did feel bad for the people in the congreation because they are totally convinced the sda church is the true church, the only body on the face of the earth with all truth and no error. Since most the adults are illeterate they are completely at the mercy of the pastor. He has total control over them. I even wondered how come they bothered having a literature rack but I guess because it looks good there in the lobby. A recent Review had an article about the great growth of the sda denomination in countries like Zimbabwe and over in that area of the world. The article said most of the sda converts over there are illeterate so the sda's are so happy they can present the truth to these people by word of mouth, on radio, in meetings, etc. I just reflected back to the Puna church I'd attended and thought, "Oh, those poor people." The sda man who had told me what a bunch of crazies went to the Puna church is Japanese. He switch to the Hilo church. He insisted I should attend a normal sda church (I guess he still believes there is such a thing. He was such a nice man that I polietly told him if I ever come back to Hawaii I just might visit the Hilo church.) if I ever come back to Hawaii. He kept telling me he can't understand how come the conference doesn't disfellowship the Puna church. All I know is that I kept thinking of Jim Jones and I had wispered to my kids, "If they offer you Kool-Aid, don't take it. We'll make a run for it." They did not offer us Kool-Aid so I guess I was a bit more in a state of panic than I needed to be. It still was a really unique service. | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 13 Registered: 7-2004 |
Wow, Susan, you had some experience there! I have a very close friend who lives in Hawaii. She and her husband have been SDA's all of their lives. However, I think that whatever SDA church they were attending drove them out! The pastor was completely mean and ugly to them. The people were snotty and divisive. They treated their kids differently. My friend is not weird or gross or anything. In fact she and her husband and kids are really nice looking and a wonderful family. He has a top job over there, etc. but these people had no love in them. They put up with it for years, and now are attending a non-denominational church and LOVE it. That is a bad place to be an adventist I guess. Anyway it was a blessing in disguise, because they are free of that torture. Bb | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 16 Registered: 7-2004 |
Is there a good place to an Adventist? | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 838 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dear Bd, What island are they on? The Hawaiian culture is very spirit oriented. My kids almost got beat up because they were making fun of Pele' the volcano goddess. They were at the base of the volcano and there was a shrine there to Pele'. People had left a lot of coins and flowers and trinkets for Pele' in the hopes that she will keep her wrath under control. As soon as my kids saw the coins one said to the other two, "Hey, look money. Let's see if we can get enough for some beer". Some Hawaiians let my children know you do not take Pele's loot and they chased my kids away. As my kids tell the story they took off running as fast as they could because even tho they were not afriad of Pele's wrath they most certanily were afriad of the Hawaiians wrath who beieve in Pele'. I only put this story here to let you know that culture often plays a big part in ones religion. If a lot of the sda's are coming into sda'ism from a spirit based belief then that will play a big part in how they look at God. Of course, in honesty, I did not get these errie underpinings at the other Chrisstian churches I attended. The one I attended (sda) was a very fear based church. The Baptist church I attended was very grace based. The ethnic mix at all of these churches was mostly Hawaiian. A lot of the Hawaiians will put plates of food and goodies at their door at night before going to sleep. This is to keep the spirits of their dead ancestors happy. You cannot convince them that it is the stray animals coming to eat the food during the night. My son suggested to one fellow that he stay awake all night and watch to see for himself if it is his dead ancestors spirits or the stray animals getting the food. The fellow was agast at such a suggestion and said to do that would show lack of faith and then for sure they would suffer wrath from the spirits. You can't win over there with logic! They have these little spirits over there called Minihunies. I never saw one. Most Hawaiians see them regurally. They are little, like gnomes or Lillieputtins. They run around in the houses at night playing and eating the food. The Hawaiians leave toys and sweets out for them or they cause much havic. Now, I don't know about you all, but I believe there really is a spirit world out there. Christians are shielded from this because we have the protection of the Holy Spirit and of God's good angels. But, I do believe if the Hawaiians saw the Minihuinies then they are real, that they actually see them then I assume they are real and the Hawaiians know of what they speek. I think the sda church stresses the demons alot. I remember being a little girl and getting A LOT of lessons on the one-third of angels that went with satan at the big uprising in heaven when the name Luciver was changed to Satan. When I was a child the sda church preached that more than they preaced forgiveness through Jesus. The Puna church I went to focused on what the SDA church focused on when I was a kid. Only it's now 40 years later. The really cool thing was at the little Catholic church in town. In the front of the church were two statues. One of Jesus and one of Mary. Someone had put beautiful leis on Jesus and Mary. One lady said someone keeps coming into the church and putting a grass skirt on Mary but the priest doesn't think that is approiate so he takes it off. But, then the next week Mary has on a grass skirt again. I took pictures of Jesus and Mary with their beautiful flower leis around their necks. The day after we went to that sda church we went to the local Hare Krishna gathering. The sda's almost made the Hare Krishna's seem normal. Just kidding, the Hare Krishna's were very nice. The sda church had a lot of fish at the potluck. Again, I guess it's cultural. The Hare Krishna's are vegetarian and no eggs. They use dairy though. | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 161 Registered: 10-2001 |
I was also told that black people came from Cain. Let's face it, folks, SDA's are WEIRD! I mean that in the weirdest sense of the word. We don't have cable on yet and guess what comes through my TV with rabbit ears?........3ABN UGH! Those people all look like a bunch of cheesy nuts to me. The sets are cheesy, the music is super cheesy and the preaching is just, well, cheesy. TBN has nothing on them! Sometimes I just can't help but gawk. Last night there was some white SDA preacher in the middle of some tribal looking people, I'm guessing Dominican Republic since they spoke Spanish and it was so primitive. He was going on telling them they are the true face of Adventism and the true church and that they live in "heaven" (looked like a garbage heap to me) Pretty pitiful that he considers that the true face of Adventism....poverty, ignorance, illiteracy, Lord, bless those poor people and send some gospel preaching person to their rescue to give them the true, good news! Robert Sanders sent me a newsletter yesterday. Says that the SDA church has disguised some EGW book and named it The Passion of Love (I think he said the last 13 chapters of Great COntroversy) How hypocritical after all of the criticism of the Passion, they are selling the book in Walmart. Makes me sick. Who can know what the true face of Adventism is...they have so many. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 450 Registered: 3-2004 |
Sabra, That book is the Desire of Ages. The more I am away from it,meaning adventism, the more weird and cultic I see them. I want to knock heads together when I read these things. What really bothers me is that the leaders at the GC have known about EGW from day 1 and still teach of her as inspired by God. I just do not get it. What do they think they are gaining? Power, prestige, money, influence, control????? All of this I know God will take care of one day and it is not up to me to do anything except love Jesus and help spread His word. God will take care of all the deceit and all the faces of adventism. He is awesome. Diana | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 14 Registered: 7-2004 |
Susan, they live in Kailua, the same island as Honolulu. I don't know the name of the church they attended, but they did not send their kids to the SDA school there. Said it was VERY clickish (cliqueish?) and yes, she has told me stories of how the natives absolutely hate the Howlies (sp?)or Americans. One of her boys went colportering one summer and got jumped by a bunch of natives. Her boys also surf a lot, but it is very territorial and unless you are really good, they will get rid of you. She even said that if you are in traffic, and you honk your horn at the natives in front of you, they will get out of their car with a baseball bat and come start beating on your car! However, she really loves it there near the beach, they kayak and really enjoy the tropical atmosphere. And yes, the new Christian church they attend is very grace filled, and the opposite of the SDA church, wherever that was she attended. I don't know what kind of ethnicity was at the SDA church, but she said if you weren't in the "group" for some reason, you were ignored and treated like dirt. But she left more on the basis of studying EGW's falsehoods than how they treated her. That was just the icing on the cake for her. |
