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Raven
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Post Number: 23
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 7:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yesterday, my husband (Ric_B) and I went to Sunday School, which was my very first time. I can honestly tell you, I have never used my brain this hard in Sabbath School! It was very interesting, because there was no distributed lesson. We only had Bibles and the teacher had a topic he wanted us to discuss by bringing our own Biblical thoughts and references into the discussion. The teacher started out with Mark 4 of the Parable of the Sower. It was easy to conclude that the people represented by the seeds the birds ate up were not going to heaven; the people represented by the seeds which grew and increased were going to heaven. The question was, what about the other two groups where the people did start to have spiritual growth but just didnít attain to the same level as the last group? He then had us turn to Revelation 3 regarding the message to the church of Sardis. It talks about not finding their deeds complete and if they donít overcome, their names will be erased from the Book of Life. The teacher wondered if perhaps everybody started out with their name written in the Book of Life, and if we didnít accept Jesus, or if our deeds werenít worthy, thatís when our names would be blotted out. Then my husband had us turn to Revelation 17:8 where it talks about those ìwhose name has NOT been written in the book of life from the foundation of the worldÖî We all agreed that people have free will, but God knows the beginning from the end and thatís how He can have peopleís names written or not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. Then I posed the question that since God knows already, and some are written in the Book of Life from the beginning and some or not, what is the point of blotting anyoneís name out? If they were ending up not in the Book of Life anyway, wouldnít they just not be there in the first place instead of getting blotted out later? (I thought about saying maybe those who never accept Jesus are not written from the foundation of the world, and those who have ever accepted Jesus are written from the foundation of the world, but those who accept Jesus at some point, may get blotted out at a later point--but that sounded too SDA!) Another person brought up, like it was a new revelation to her, that it seems there is a Book of Deeds and a Book of Life, and apparently the record of our deeds can get us blotted out of the Book of Life, but she had always thought our deeds had nothing to do with our salvation. Immediately, I had images of all the IJ stuff, with the angel recording my every thought and move, and if anything remained unconfessed when my name comes up, it would be blotted out. I didnít make any comment, but I thought ìlady letís donít even go there! You donít even know the half of it!î We ended the class when my husband and I brought up the text that says Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world. Obviously He wasnít literally slain back then, so maybe whatever that meaning is, applies to the Book of Lifeís foundation of the world meaning. Does anyone have thoughts on this topic? Weíre continuing discussion next week! I really didn't expect anyone, outside the SDA church, to even hint at salvation being related to deeds, but how else do you explain the message to the church of Sardis?
Melissa
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Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 8:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Raven, I'm not sure I have a complete answer for you, but I've always understood the issue of works and faith as related only to the point that when we have a heart change for Christ, through time, you'll see works, deeds, whatever term you want to reflect that relationship. You can have an intellectual belief about Jesus and think that intellectual belief is sufficient, but there is something about faith that causes actions, not actions that cause salvation. If I'm devoted to a spouse, you'll begin to notice changes in me...I won't go out with others, if he wants to do certain things on certain nights of the week, I may adjust my schedule...things change when you gain a spouse. It's not an ideal example because Christ is not our equal, he is our head, but there should be some sort of natural change in us as Christ transforms us. I get hung up on the word 'works' too because of the negativity I have from B indicating somehow my works contribute to my salvation. Remember, Paul calls ALL works as filthy rags, so even our best doesn't measure up. There are fruits of the Spirit that should be evident to someone who has accepted Christ. I think some people follow a list of rules and behaviors that make them 'look" Christian and some can even talk intellectually about the Bible, but there isn't a personal relationship with Christ. Remember also, the Bible says the demons believe and tremble. However the books relate, works/deeds as a causitive action to salvation contradicts what I understand the gospel to be. Salvation spurs one on to good works.

Interesting discussion about the books. I've also wondered if they weren't symbolic of God's overall knowledge of people, but the Bible certainly mentions books in several places. I haven't really studied that aspect at all.
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 569
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Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 1:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Raven, how interesting that this topic came up! I've also pondered the seed parable A LOT over the past three or four years, and the issue of being elected from the foundation of the earth and names not written from the foundation of the earth.

I haven't come up with a completel explanation for all of this yet--but I'll share my thoughts. First, I've come to the believe that the issue of election and predestination vs. free will is a non-issue. Both are true. Both are taught in the Bible. It is a paradox we can't explain here in our time-bound, three-dimensional world.

A couple of months ago, the subject of God's providence was the topic of study in our monthly Systematic Theology class at church. (We're using "Bible Doctrine" by Wayne Grudem, edited by Jeff Purswell.) Here's a great quote from the book: "Exactly how God combines his providential control with our willing and significant choices, Scripture simply does not explain to us. But rather than deny one aspect or the other (simply because we cannot explain how both can be true), we should accept both in an attempt to be faithful to the teaching of all of Scripture." (p.146)

I remember our pastor saying once in a class he taught that he can't explain why, if God has predestined and foreknown his people, he also instructed us to teach the gospel and evangelize. But, he said, the Lord Jesus said that's what we are to do, so in obedience he does it.

I've heard the seed parable explained that those that fell on rocky ground and were eaten by the birds (did not put down roots and withered when the heat came) and those that fell among the weeds and were choked to death (by the cares of the world) in the Matthew 18 version of the story represent people who do not experience a true surrender of their hearts when they accept Jesus. They represent those who hear the gospel, are atracted to it, seem to flourish and function in the body of believers, but fall away when times are tough.

Perhaps that explanation is correct--I've heard people who's Bible scholarship I greatl respect give this interpretation. I still, however, have a tiny question about it. I'm wondering if, just as God's election and our free will are both true, the security of salvation and a person's ability to somehow willfully lose it might also be a paradox? That being said (Please don't stone me!), I also want to say I absolutely believe that I never have to worry about falling out of salvation. I am in God's hands and Jeus's hands, and my deeds cannot separate me from him.

I'm only saying that I believe there are issues about this subject we cannot fully explain because we simply cannot see or know all of reality.

As far as works are concerned, I agree with Meslissa that true faith, being born of the Spirit, will yield good works. They are works of faith, though--not works of salvation.

In Romans 7 Paul drives home the point that those who are born again experience war between their new minds which want to honor God and live by the Spirit and their sinful flesh which continues to pull them toward self-indulgence and sin. Paul moves from Romans 7 into the resolution of Romans 8 where he explains that the solution to this dilemma is to choose (free will!) to live by the Spirit instead of giving in to the flesh. He makes it clear that the born again person is no longer a slave to sin; in other words, his spirit is alive in Christ through the indwelling Holy Spirit. God, not sin, is the central identity of a person once he is born again. Yet even the born again are living with eternal spirits in sinful bodies, and the flesh continues to drag us back towards sin. Paul urges people to "live by the Spirit" instead of by the flesh. The way we live after our new birth is a choice. Giving in to the flesh does not mean we lose our salvation. But now, instead of being hopelessly enslaved by our sinful natures, we are set free by our new birth to be able to choose to live by the Spirit when the moments of temptation come.

1 Corinthians 3 indicates that our works as believers will determine our "rewards", not our salvation. Works of the Spirit will last, but works not of the spirit will be destroyed although the person himself will be saved "as one escaping through the flames". (1 Cor. 3 10-15)

And yes, there are places such as the passage in Revelation 3 you mentioned above, Raven, which do suggest a person's name can be "blotted out" of the Book of Life. I really can't explain it all so there are no holes in the explanation. I have come, though, to the point where I can live with the idea that I may not be able to reconcile completely the seemingly opposing ideas that one is eternally secure and one can end up losing salvation.

I do believe that the security the Bible teaches is a promise I can trust with everything in me. And perhaps those who do lose it are people who have never really surrendered themselves to Jesus in a a real and deep way but instead gave intellectual assent or an emotional response to an appeal.

This disucssion is another subject that reminds me of Scott Pecks' (the Christian psychiatrist) statement that truth is always a paradox. I'm actually more comfortable seing this issue as a paradox than I am trying to nail it down with an explanation. Any explanation I've thought of left too many disconcerting holes. But I'm open to understanding it better!

Colleen
Chris
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Post Number: 373
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Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 3:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let's take a close look at Rev. 3:5

'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Rev 3:5 (NASB)

This is a PROMISE, not a threat. Jesus clothes us in the white garments of HIS foreign rigtouness, not our own works which are only filthy rags. The fact that we have been clothed by Jesus in the white robes of HIS righteousness GUARANTEES that we will overcome, that we will persevere. Not because of our merit, but because of HIS. It also GUARANTEES something else: we can be assured that our names will NEVER be erased from the Book of Life. Once Jesus clothes us in His righteousness we have life eternal, we will never die, nothing will ever seperate us from His love, nothing will ever remove our name from the Book of Life. Now read the text again and see the assurance and promise in it:

'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will **NOT** erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Rev 3:5 (NASB)


Chris
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 575
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Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 4:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great point, Chris. And overcoming is not "getting the victory" in the way we were taught. It's the victory of Jesus transforming us through the Spirit who is always in us. We really are new creations, members of the family of God.

And I also believe, Chris, that nothing can ever separate us from Jesus. Once we've accepted Him, we never again ever need to fear we might be lost.

Colleen
Pheeki
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Post Number: 385
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Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 6:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And the bible also tells us who the overcomers are...only those who believe in Jesus Christ.
Raven
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Post Number: 24
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Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 6:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for your insights, Melissa, Colleen, Chris and Pheeki. Actually, Chris, my husband did bring up in class that Rev. 3:5 is a promise and not a threat, but the rest of the class couldn't get off the discussion of how a person's name could be blotted out. The teacher also had us look at Exodus 32:33 where it says "The Lord said to Moses, 'Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.'" I guess they were trying to connect that with the message to Sardis as the logical inverse of its promise.
Also, I just did some research on the Lamb being slain from the foundation of the world, and was surprised to find that is not a correct translation! Apparently, that was from Revelation 13:8, and the KJV is the only translation that says "Lamb who has been slain from the foundation of the world." The other translations say it "...everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain."
In any case, thanks for the reminder to evaluate every interpretation by the Gospel!
Susan_2
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Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 7:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen, When you say nothng can ever seperate one from Jesus, well, I would like some further discussion about this. I have a friend who was raised in a home of a wonderful family, Christian. I do not know if he ever practiced Christianity on his own free-will after becoming an idependent adult. I do not know if he ever personaly accepted Jesus as his Savior. But, for the sake of discusion let's say someone was once a practicing Christian and then truned away from Christianity totally. My friend has now been a devoted Hindu for around 30 years. I just wonder if someone had accepted Jesus and had been a practicing Christian and then did a total change in beliefs, well how is that persons salvaion in Christ secure?
Chris
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Post Number: 374
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Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 7:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan_2, consider what John has to say on this subject:

They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
1 John 2:19 (NASB)


Chris
Chris
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Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 8:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Raven, the context of Ex. 32:33 is after the golden calf inccident, Moses says he will attempt to make atonement for the people by begging God to forgive the people. Moses than says that if God will not forgive them then God can blot his (Moses') name from His book instead. God declines to take Moses as a substitutionary atonement sacrifice for the people and states that whoever commits the sin against Him will be the ones who are blotted out (in other words Moses cannot become sin for the people and take their sin onto himself). All this is quite true. All of us who sin against God deserve to be blotted out of the Book of Life, every last one of us, and no mere sinful man can take away this consequence from us, no sinful man may make atonement for us as Moses proposed. But notice that God does give the people a symbol of atonement in the symbolic rituals of the day of atonement. One spotless animal is slain for the sins of the people and it's blood is sprikled upon the mercy seat. Another spotless animal carries the sins of the people away from from them into the wilderness. All this obviously prefigures the work of Christ who forever removes our sins from us, becomes sin for us, and takes the consequence of our sin on Himself. Unlike Moses, He can do this because He is the righteouss one, utterly perfect, spotless, and without sin, the eternal Son of God, 100% man and 100% God. It is His sacrifice and His sacrifice alone that assures that our names will never be blotted out from the book of life just as promised in Revelation. One of the key rules of hermeneutics is that Jesus Christ is the full Revelation of God therefore the OT must be interpretted in light of the NT. What God is saying to Moses is much more clear when we view it through Gospel lenses (just as you said).

"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

2 Cor 5:21 (NASB)
Colleentinker
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Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 10:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also, Raven, Revelation 13:8 can also be inerpreted "Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth". The NIV study notes give alternative translations for passages which can be translated more than one way, and this is one of those passages.

When you think about the implications of "those whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world" and of "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world," you really get different pictures of the same idea: Salvation was a "done deal" at creation.

Thanks for the 1 John text, Chris. Susan, I keep coming back to the parable of the seeds. Those who died in the heat looked healthy and flourishing, but when the heat came, they died because they put down no roots. Some people do appear to respond to the gospel and look and act like real Christians. After all, even Judas was sent out with the 12 and performed miracles. The proof of their experience, though, shows up when they need the deep grounding in Jesus to survive the trauma of life. Those who have a superificial intellectual or emotional response with no surrender of the heart and submission of one's life to the will of God and to immersion in His word will die in the heat.

Those plants that were choked by the weeds also sprouted and grew from the gospel seed. But they never thrived, and they were eventually choked to death by the cares and worries of the world which were the center of their attention instead of Jesus being the center. Their lives' responses were to worldly concerns instead of to trusting Jesus with life's dilemmas.

I am so thankful for that parable; it has helped me sort out many of the questions that have risen about this subject! Ultimately, it does lead back to the text Chris quotes above: those who leave never were part of us.

Colleen
Ric_b
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Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 11:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So many great points. Thanks to all.
Colleen--It does all "turn" on the understanding of the parable. The assumption that had led our class down these pathways was that the growth of the seed indicated that person had "received salvation." So the natural questions that followed were, does that mean that the plant that died from the heat and the plant that was choked out in the weeds suggest that people lost their salvation because of these situtations. However if the seed and growth are viewed as the response to the Gospel message, the parable isn't about losing one's salvation. It is about seeking that salvation in the first place.
Colleentinker
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Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 12:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Ric_b--that's what that parable seems to be describing. Elizabeth Inrig (I know I mention her alot--I've learned so much from her women's Bible studies) commented to us one evening that in any congregation you will always have at least four categories of people: those who are hostile to God and are attending for some reason other than knowing Him, those who are seeking truth, those who appear to be born again and actively involved but have unsurrendered hearts, and those who are truly born from above and walking with Jesus. She also pointed out that you won't always be able to tell which kind of person you're looking at--at least superficially. Church members/ attenders aren't simply in two black or white categories (although in God's eyes they are either saved or not). To us, however, the hearts are often hidden.

Perhaps the fact that so many people are in tenuous spiritual positions of being interested in Jesus but struggling with surrender is the reason Jesus said in another parable that when some servants told their land owner that someone had sown tares among the wheat plants and asksed if they should pull up the tares, the Master answered No. Let them grow together lest you accidentally pull up some wheat with the tares, and let the two be separated by the angels at the harvest. (Matthew 13:31-43)

The text Chris mentioned, 1 John 2:19, seems to hint a bit at the question of God's election and foreknowledge: people may leave who really did do mighty work for God, and no one but God knew they had compromised hearts.

Living in the body of Christ really does take us deeper and deeper into trust and faith in Jesus. He alone can bring us to repentance, surrender, and commitment--and we have to be able to trust Him and His ultimate mercy and justice when we deal with those around us as well.

Colleen
Sabra
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Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 2:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Can I give a totally different thought I have been studying out?

I may be WAY off, but many of these parables seem to indicate to me that there is a partial rapture. As Enoch and Elijah were found righteous and were raptured, I'm thinking more and more that only the "righteous" will be raptured and those that haven't made a complete committment wont.

Like the 5 virgins that were left behind, they were invited the the wedding but their lights went out, they were told to go and "buy" more oil. In every case of buying I could find it indicated selling what is most precious to us and buying what we really need.

The weeping and gnashing of teeth could represent the tribulation and those that overcome are saved, through the fire.

I have a lot more thoughts, and I know some don't even believe in a rapture at all and that is fine. I'll just leave it at that and see if there are any thoughts.

As far as salvation, since God knows end from beginning He knows what our choice will be, but it is still our choice, He can predestine our works because He knows our every single choice and can weave them all together for His purpose. Too big to understand, but it a timeless "other world" we are either saved or not. The outcome is already determined, we just don't know it yet and I believe it depends on our remaining, not just our one-time decision. I think we can choose to leave and then we weren't ever really saved.

Make sense? Well, not really.

Sabra
Melissa
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Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 3:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sabra, I tend to think if there is a pre-trib rapture that those who have had the opportunity to accept Christ prior will fall under the category of those being sent "strong delusion" so that they won't get that "second chance" that some claim the rapture gives. There is some verse that talks about a strong delusion, and I don't have it at hand, but that is the reference I have heard when some claim it's teaching a second chance theology. If someone has had the chance to reject Christ, there is no second chance once he comes. But as long as he tarrys, there are 2nd, 3rd and maybe 100 chances to hear and receive/reject. So, I don't know how Biblically one can make a strong argument for the partial rapture meaning that people will get to choose a second time after they've made an initial rejection. A lot of people mistakenly think that the pre-trib rapture means that people who missed the call the first time can make the choice later, but I've never read any pre-trib literature that would support that accusation. As I mentioned earlier, I've always heard the exact opposite.

Those are my thoughts on the idea. But it's good to ponder sometimes, as long as scripture is the ultimate authority and not our "wonderings".
Sabra
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Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 4:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK, I hear you, but consider the 5 foolish virgins. They wouldn't be told to go and buy oil if they weren't going to be going to the wedding. They are getting there late, for sure.

I don't really think it is so much that the left behind have all rejected Christ, maybe they just haven't made a committment, maybe they haven't decided.

If there were no chance of anyone being saved in the tribulation we wouldn't need the two witnesses.

I think the strong delusion ones are those that have absolutely denied grace. Been told and told but refuse to accept it. I think there is a difference in being against God and just not really for Him.

I went through a time when I didn't really know if there was a God. I didn't know Him and reject Him, I just wasn't sure He was real. I think if I had been left behind I would have then known for sure and wanted to commit my life to Him.

On the other hand, if I had found Him to be true, knew He was true and said, no thanks, then I would have the strong delusion and accept the AC.

I'm not dogmatic on it, just trying to study it out.

Sabra
Melissa
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Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 7:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm not saying I don't think anyone can be saved during the tribulation...I just don't think it's going to be the people who've already had a chance and made the choice to take their chances or rejected him out of hand...2nd chance theology. It seems pretty clear that people will get saved during the "time of trouble" (no matter what term you use for it). It's been a long time since I've read Revelation on that part and some of the other corresponding scriptures. It is not black and white, so it is completely possible there is not a pre-trib rapture, but pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib...salvation is possible throughout, I just don't think that the catching away will be the catalyst to create that change. I keep saying in my spare time I'm going to study it again, but it just hasn't hit my priority list. I'm not dogmatic either, just trying to learn what God has new for me everyday. and this is a topic where I've had a hard time nailing down agreement with any of the popular theories floating around. I agree and disagree with all of them. But 'tis nothin' to divide over!

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