| Author | Message | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 480 Registered: 3-2004 |
I have a NIV Study Bible published by Zondervan. I read Dan 8:14- "He said to me, It will take 2300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated" In the helps at the bottom of the page there is this explanation: There were two daily sacrifices for the continual burnt offering (see 9:21, Ex. 29:38-39 and note) representing the atonement required for Israel as a whole. The 2300 "evenings and mornings" probably refer to the number of sacrifices consecutively offered on 1150 days, the interval between the desecration of the Lord's altar by Antiochus Epiphanes and its reconsecration by Judas Maccabeus on Kislev 25, 165BC. Now, my questions is, is this something that most Christians, non SDA type, have believed and for how long? I know the SDAs use this as a proof text for one of their false doctrines, I think the IJ. So I would like some history on it. According to this text the 2300 days ended long ago. Thanks for the help. I am not a Bible scholar, but to get to know Christ I have had to study and read my Bible. I have learned a lot and even though I am not a scholar, I am still learning, with God's help. Diana | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 857 Registered: 11-2002 |
It is my understanding that this prophecy was fullfilled with the destruction of the temple in Jerusulem in the year 70 A.D. when the Romans were out to cause a lot of meyham and devistation. In fact, history teaches that the heathens even sacraficed a pig on the Jewish alter. This was thought to be, and rightly so I would think, about the most vile and icky thing a person could do in a Jewish temple. It was so disguesting that the Jews haven't gotten over it enough to build their temple anew. I may have my history mixed up. I may not. There is some about this in the Apocrapha and also in the writings of Josephus. I, too, would like to learn more about this. I'm so glad, Diana that you brouht up tis topic. It is a very interesting one. | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 98 Registered: 2-2003 |
Diana and Susan, As far as I know, the interpretation of Daniel 8 as referring to the Maccabean period (2nd century BC) is very widely accepted amoung Bible scholars of many persuasions. In fact, prophecies in Daniel about this period are so accurate, that liberal scholars claim the book must have been written in the 2nd century, as "prophecy after the event." However, to do this, they have to indulge in some rather fantastic twisting to explain away the accurate references to the Roman empire (later than 2nd C.) and to Jesus. Anyway - from memory: Daniel lived in the 6th century BC, so the book was written then, according to conservative scholars. The ram and goat in Daniel 8 are the kingdoms of Media-Persia and Greece (as explained by the angel in verses 20-21.) The Persian empire was conquered by Alexander the Great in the 4th century BC (see verse 5-7). Alexander then died of an illness at a young age (can't remember all the details) and his empire was divided between his four generals (verse 8). Antiochus IV Epiphanes was a 2nd century king of the Seleucid dynasty which ruled over one of these divisions, the one that included Israel. He is referred to in v. 9-14. He tried to "hellenise" Israel completely, and to destroy their religion. This included dessecration of the temple by slaughtering a pig in the sanctuary. There was then an uprising under Judas Maccabeus, which succeeded in reconquering Jerusalem and rededicating the temple. This period lasted a little over three years and corresponds to the 2300 sacrifices or 1150 days of verse 14. The "feast of dedication" mentioned in the New Testament (John 10: 22) was in commemoration of this victory. You can read about this period in the book of I Maccabees, which is in the Apocrypha, found in Roman Catholic bibles. Protestants do not consider the Apocryphal writings inspired, but I Maccabees is certainly interesting to read for the history of this period. Hope that is helpful, God bless, Adrian | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 76 Registered: 7-2004 |
Great subject! I would like to compare what most Christians find in Daniel (thanks Doc for a great start) with that of SDA. It was all taught to me but I hated it (for whatever reason - scary or boring or both?). What I was taught is gone. Maybe it is too much to do for this forum and there is a book that has the info that one of you could tell me about. I don't want to take a great deal of my precious study time that I do have and fill it with a subject that really does not have any bearing on my day to day living or my salvation. I would like to know primarily to have an idea of what SDA's may "throw" at me (in sports they say a good defense is the best offense  ). Thanks! | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 438 Registered: 7-2003 |
As Adrian said, 1 Maccabees is not considered as inspired, but I understand it is considered historically accurate. I have heard a dissenter or two about the Antiochus fulfillment of that prophecy because they say you can't prove it was 1150 days exactly. B says it was not him because the prophecy says from the 4 one will be might (vs 24) and he doesn't think Antiochus was mighty. Whatever. If you read 1 Maccabees, and I think you can find it on the internet probably, then read Daniel 8, you'll think you were readying the same story. At least I did. Josh McDowell did a book years ago called something like "Daniel and it's critics" which addresses the "young" Daniel issues very well. This prophecy is one of the key reasons people reject it was written at the time of Daniel as Adrian also mentioned above. McDowell's book is out of print, but maybe your church library has it or you can find it online maybe. It is very good (although written to an educated audience) at addressing the challenges of the book of Daniel's dating. I'm sure there are others too, I just know about that one. I know SDAs like to use the KJV because of it's wording in Daniel 8:14, but if you look at vs 26 it says "And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true...." So, even the KJV acknowledges the vision was about the morning and evenings, not 'days' as vs 14 errantly is interpretted. I just noticed that this morning when I went to re-read the explanation God gives of that vision. Way more credible to me than EGW, Crosley or whoever else was involved in the SDA interpretation. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 439 Registered: 7-2003 |
Dd, I don't remember how Cultic Doctrine addresses Daniel (but I'm sure it does since it's part of the IJ theology), but I know that Jerry Gladson's book called "A Theologian's Journey" talks about it too. He was a Bible teacher at Southern adventist college (it's changed names, not sure what it is now). B was at that college during the time Gladson's things were happening to him, so I thought B might find his testimony credible, and though he acknowledges knowing some of the things it talks about, he said the general student population wouldn't have any knowledge about it. He missed the point where Gladson specifically talks about his knowledge that the historical SDA interpretation of Daniel cannot be sustained from the original language. He talks about the personal challenge of not being able to teach that topic in good conscience and how he tap danced around some questions to not contradict the SDA position even though he thought it was false. It's more personal story than textual analysis, but it is an interesting book nonetheless. Perhaps others might have more information than I do, but I know those two sources are good. Also, there is a website that presents an SDA scholar's formal position on the issue: http://www.jesusinstituteforum.org/AssetOrLiability.html This is Raymond Cottrell's paper that he presented to the SDA something to try to shake the traditional teaching of the sanctuary doctrine. Cottrell is still trying to hold on to all other things SDA and he makes some further errors (in my opinion) trying to keep adventism right about everything else but just mistaken about this. He starts his paper trying to justify why his scholarship isn't contrary to EGW. I thought that was an interesting leap off the bridge, but it is clear that he had to get her out of the way before addressing the Biblical text itself. As I said, I don't think his paper is completely accurate in some respects, but in terms of what Daniel 8:14 means or doesn't mean, I think he's pretty well correct. I gave this paper to B in printed form, and he said he didn't understand some of the terms Cottrell used to know whether he was right or not (but he's studied the issue for himself and knows thoroughly the SDA interpretation is the only correct one...???). Since this interpretation is unique to SDAs, you won't find much out there by non-SDAs unless they are formers or an occasional "reformer" trying to correct the historical errors with that doctrine. Hope that helps. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 585 Registered: 12-2003 |
You're right, Melissa. Cottrell did NOT believe the doctrine of the IJ was Biblical, and he did not believe Daniel 8:14 was talking about the heavenly sanctuary. He clung tenaciously to EGW in some form or another and refused to go to the point of considering leaving. In my experience working with him during my Adventist Today years, he always seemed sort-of sad and depressed. I used to look at him across our conference table editorial meetings and wonder if the compromise between his certainty of the error of Adventism's key doctrine and his refusal to go public with it in an official way before his death caused the sadness or depression I sensed in him. He was without doubt a brilliant man and a great scholar, but he couldn't quite integrate what he knew with his desire to be Adventist, and he lived with continuous dissonance. Adrian and Melissa are correct in saying that most Christians do see Daniel 8:14 being about Antiochus Epiphanes and his desecration of the temple in the intertestamental (between the OT and the NT) period of the Macabees. One has to ask why, if the Adventist postiion is correct, they 1) need the KJV in order to support it, and 2) NO ONE ELSE in the history of the church has ever seen it? Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 484 Registered: 3-2004 |
I asked the question after reading/discovering, the comment on the text. If the majority of Christian historians know and have known it for years, why did the SDA church think they knew the "real truth"? Maybe that is a rhetorical question and doesn't really have an answer. It is just puzzling to me and again, as I see it now, it is because Satan will use anything to confuse,distort, belittle, demean the gospel. He does not care as long as it pulls one away from Jesus. Thanks to all of you for enlightening me. I do appreciate it. Is there a book out there that I can get that tells about the IJ from a former point of view? Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 591 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dale Ratzlaff's book Cultic Doctrine deals with the IJ. He begins with William Miller and walks through the entire process of how the fahters and mother of Adventism formed it. He also tells about the historical view of the text. It's available at www.ratzlaf.com. Colleen | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 102 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hi Diana, the Truth or Fables website has an article about the IJ and Antiochus Epiphanes that was written in 1933 that I just read recently. http://www.truthorfables.com/2300_Days_by_Vowless.htm While I was researching the history of Ancient Greece for this third grade history class I will be teaching, I ran across the same thing that Adrian said above, that liberal scholars want to say that Daniel lived at the time of Antiochus Epiphenes because he got the prophecy so right. I also found out that the feast of Dedication celebrating the restoration of sacrifices, is none other than Hannukkah. I had heard the story for years, but didn't know what the time frame was. I learned another interesting point aboutthe period of Hellenization by Alexander the Great and his Generals. "Everywhere Alexander went, he took the Greek language, which eventually was the language used in the New Testament to tell the God News of Christ." THE MYSTERY OF HISTORY pg. 305 God is SO in control!! Several months ago I heard an interesting lecture called "Education as Repentance." When we seek to learn, we are admitting that we don't know it all. When I was an SDA, I remember thinking that there really isn't anymore to learn since we have the timelines, the end time scenario, we have Mrs. White, we have the "truth". I have since repented! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 491 Registered: 3-2004 |
I just read about the IJ at the truth or fables web site. What a convoluted, confusing, twisted doctrine it is! What a misinterpretation of the Bible! Thank you, I will take Jesus and only the Bible. It is so much easier to understand without the EGW twist on it. I remember studying it while at the SDA schools and I got good grades on the tests and immediately forgot the IJ. Thank you God for doing that for me. One has to jump through all kinds of hoops and go through all kinds of mazes to believe that. Thank you everyone for helping me understand Daniel 8:14. My appetite for studying the Bible has been whetted and I now want to study Daniel in depth. Any suggestions for how to do this? I am not so smart that I cannot admit I do not know it all already. And you are right. God is in control!!!! Leigh, I like the blurb you put above about when we seek to learn, we are admitting that we don't know it all. I have repented also. Every day I learn more and more how AWESOME God is. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 601 Registered: 12-2003 |
Diana, the best way I know to start studying a book in depth is to ask God to teach you what you need to know, and begin reading. It's often helpful to follow the marginal references to other Bible passages that refer to the same word or subject; you start to piece together the things various Bible writers have said about the same subject, and a big picture begins to form. I find that it's almost impossible for me to really remember what I study unless I take notes and write down cross-references. Praise God that He takes resonsibility for teaching us! Colleen | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 30 Registered: 7-2004 |
I cannot begin to count the number of times I have read my way through Daniel thinking that because I was SDA I had a better handle on what the information in there meant. With Daniel's prophecies it helps to be a historian because Daniel points to the fact that something will happen, and history points to the fact that it turned out exactly as Daniel said it would. I have come to believe that Daniel's Vision of a Ram and a Goat found its fulfillment in Alexander The Great and his four generals after him. It is a historical fact that Antiochus Epiphanies subjugated the land of Isreal for a period of time just over 4 years. 2300 evenings and mornings comes out to be 1150 days worth of sacrifices, and we are talking about the number of evening and morning sacrifices that were going to be missed before the sanctuary would be cleansed. Take 1150 and divide it by 360 (the Jewish year at the time) and you will get 4 years and 10 days. During that time he did not allow the Jewish people to worship in their accustomed fashion. He also had a statue, a representation of himself, set up in the Holy of Holies (remember, the Ark of the Covenant was already lost by that time), and he had a pig sacrificed on the altar in front of that statue, thus declaring himself to be a god. Both of these acts were total desicration in the eyes of the Jewish people. In John 10 you will find a reference to the fact that Jesus and his diciples went to Jerusalem to celebrate The Winter Festival. None of the seven set times of the Lord were celebrated in the winter. They begin in the spring and are celebrated into the fall. The Winter Festival referred to in John 10 was Hanukkah, which is the celebration of the cleansing of the Sanctuary after Antiochus was overthrown by the Macabees. The story can be found starting at John 10:22 and continuing on to the end of the chapter. I'm not sure how the other Gospels handle that story, or even if they do, but I will look them up if I can and post that information, too. All I'm saying is that Jesus himself went to celebrate a completed prophecy, that being the prophecy about the evenings and the mornings. End of discussion. EGW and her buddies had their information all twisted up! Belva | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 506 Registered: 3-2004 |
Thank you Colleen and BelvaLew, I started studying as you said Colleen and Belva, I found the things you wrote to be what I read in the margins. I also have a copy of the apocraphal books and read Maccabees and got a good history lesson. The one thing I need to do is get pencil and paper and take notes so I will remember what I read and study. You folks on this forum are blessings from God. I have not posted anything for 4 days because I was sitting with my nephew's dogs at my younger sister's house. I got to sleep with the two dogs for 3 nights. Have you ever had a small dog snuggle up to you and lick your face when you are asleep. I do love the dogs, though. God is awesome. Diana | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 877 Registered: 11-2002 |
I like to read the Hawaiian news every day. The are having a big problem over there with people getting the dogs and butchering them for meat. The SPCA over thre has issued alerts to pet owners to keep their pets with them at all times so their beloved Fido's don't become someone elses steak dinner. It's so sad. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 89 Registered: 7-2004 |
Diana - One thing I have found that really helps my limited ability to remember (ie. my forgetfulness ) is to write in my Bible rather than in a seperate notebook. I found a NASB Wide Margin Bible specifically for note takers. When I read a good thought somewhere I will write it beside a verse that pertains to the thought. I also write a lot of texts beside other supporting texts to help me "walk" through a subject. It has been invaluable plus it shows me how absolutely amazing God's Word fits together. Needless to say, after 6 years of an indepth Bible study I have a great deal of markings in my Bible. My 12 year old daughter, for some reason, finds it fasinating and I see her at church reading through my notes! I pray that God's Spirit directs my study not only for me but for those who may read through my Bible at some later date. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 618 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dd, what an awesome legacy! | ||
| Newfriend Registered user Username: Newfriend Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2005 |
Dear Susan_2 and FlyingLady, Since you love dogs like I do -- I am hoping you and anyone else will pray for Kyo. Kyo is a teacup Chihuahua who lives in a closed garage along with the pickup and car that the garage also houses. It doesn't matter if it is 20 degrees or a beautiful day outside - Kyo is isolated and alone in the closed up garage. The people have relatives that breed Chihuahuas for a living so Kyo was a free dog. Please pray that the little nine year old girl and the little 7 year old boy will be stirred by God's direction to bring Kyo in the house and give him love and attention. The parents have warmth for thier children and the children could change things for the little puppy. This is not a laughing matter and God did make this puppy to be loved and nurtured not isolated. The puppy craves to be loved of course. Please pray that God will change these peoples hearts and give them compassion for Kyo. And mercy for Kyo. They told me it is hard for them since they were raised to eat dogs in thier country where they are from. They won't eat Kyo but they are not loving him and meeting his needs either. Please pray the people will change. They can get an endless supply from thier relatives so don't think it will help for Kyo to have another home. This is not thier first "pet". God can change the hearts of the people toward Kyo their pet. | ||
| Newfriend Registered user Username: Newfriend Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2005 |
Oh, and thank you so much for your prayers for little Kyo the teacup Chihuahua. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1225 Registered: 12-2003 |
I will pray, Newfriend, that Kyo's family experience the transformation of God's love and redemption that will soften their hearts and give them a totally new view of reality. Colleen |
