| Author |
Message |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 85
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 4:24 pm: |     |
Colleen - Loved your adjective "icky" to describe foot washing/communion...sadly it is the perfect portrayal of my sense for those dreaded days...I am so saddened by the thought of those still participating in a ceremony that holds such a negative, ugly sensory response.
A very, very dear gentlemen (in his late 80's) attended the SDA church we went to. He was talking to me one day about the recent death of his brother. He had tears streaming down his checks as he recounted the love he and his brother had shared. He was sure that this wonderful man would be in Heaven but he cried all the harder when he said he feared he wouldn't see his brother in Heaven. "I hope the Lord will see fit to take me to Heaven with Him when He comes again."
This poor man was a long time pillar in the church. He was a very good, kind and caring man. He did not miss a church service. He was very generous with his money. I am sure he participated in every single foot washing and communion service. It broke my heart that through it all he still did not comprehend the love and grace of Jesus Christ.
I am with Hoytster and praying for those still struggling. After this last weekend and praying at sundown Friday night and again Saturday afternoon (see the thread regarding this - I think "Prayer Chain") I am looking forward to Friday night sundown! |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 876
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 6:29 pm: | |
Ric_b, Do you ever again attend Lutheran services? I had a series of miracles all leading me to the Lutheran church. Someday I will share them. |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 26
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 9:00 pm: | |
Susan: I attended Lutheran services with my family on occassion the entire 20 years I was SDA, and I still go to church with them from time to time. I used to take communion whenever I had the chance but recently my parents joined a WELS Lutheran church and they practice closed communion (which to me is a big red flag). The pastor there has excellent sermons; I often read the printout of his sermons that he hands out (in fact my stepdad has been known to point out specific sermons).
One of the Lutheran pastors from my parent's church had a particularly impact on me, one that I have thought about quite often. He was the pastor at my confirmation and was still pastor when I became an SDA and left to study theology at AU. What continues to stand out was his reaction. Before I left, he went out of his way to talk with me about his experiences studying theology and to encourage me to remain strong in my relationship with God. When I would visit my parents' church over the next few years he continued to express a genuine interest in my life. |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 879
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 9:15 pm: | |
What is a WELS Lutheran church? I am a member in the ELCA. We also have a Wisconson Synod here and a Missouri Synod church. I have been wanting to take Christian history classes over at Cal Lutheran. I took a class from our local retired bishop on the book of Revelations. For the first time in my life Revelations made sense and I wasn't shaking in my boots in fear from that book! |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 27
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 9:44 pm: | |
WELS=Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod or "Wisconsin Synod" |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 880
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 10:29 pm: | |
We have one Lutheran church in the area that is having a hard time getting new members. New people move into the area and will attend that church and really like it and then when they find out women aren't allowed to vote in church elections or be on the church board, etc., generally the wives pitch a fit and the family switches to the ELCA. I'm not sure what synod this church is part of but it's certanily not up to the times with accepting women as equal members. Which reminds me of something, since this is a Former SDA group on here. Haven't you all wondered how come the sda won't ordane women when their Big Cheeze, egw is female? That never did make sense to me. I know some of you on here live in Southeran California. Have any of you heard Hyventh Willams speek? I've got numerous kin who really are great fans of hers. |
Hoytster
Registered user
Username: Hoytster
Post Number: 105
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 5:49 am: | |
Yet another similarity between SDA and the Roman Catholic church: women are second-class members.
I'm proud that my Methodist church has a female pastor and our region's bishop is also a woman. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 616
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 10:38 am: | |
Yes, I've heard Hyveth. She's extremely dynamic, and she does have a grasp of the gospel better than many SDAs. She's loyal Adventist, though, in spite of her gospel bent. I believe God is working on her, but I cannot see her heart.
The SDA ordination question is crazy-making. While much of the North American church would like to have women ordained, the powers-that-be say that the "world church" isn't ready for that and would figuratively pitch a fit if it were allowed.
When we were board members at LLU church, ordination was the issue of a heated discussion at one meeting. I left that meeting with such an uncomfortable feeling about the militant, demanding attitude that underlay the arguments of those that insisted on ordination. (The local church was trying to decide whether to unilaterally ordain its female pastors without conference approval.)
It felt much more like a poitical battle than a spiritual one, and I just had such a mixed reaction to the whole issue. I'm not surprised that they can't arrive at consensus; they are not approaching the issue from a stance of unity in the Spirit or of serious Biblical guidance.
Colleen |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 31
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 12:21 pm: | |
As Ric_b's wife, I wanted to say we sometimes have interesting discussions with Rick's mom and stepdad about the Wisconsin versus Missouri Lutheran synods. They currently belong to Wisconsin, and we don't like the fact that the Wisconsin synod doesn't allow women to vote and they have closed communion--restrictive enough to remind you of SDA's. (They even had one pastor previously that refused to pray with anyone who was not also Lutheran Wisconsin synod, although I'm sure that's unusual and extreme.) However, Rick's parents tell us they will not belong to the Missouri synod because Missouri synod members say in their creed every week "we are in bondage to sin...", and that can't be right because Jesus has freed us from sin and we are no longer in bondage. It seems every denomination, or division within a denomination, has something that is not completely right with it!
That's why we're looking for a church that is very basic and minimal in its required beliefs, and lets the members decide for themselves on the minor details. |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 882
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 12:58 pm: | |
Have you considered the ELCA? |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 32
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 1:08 pm: | |
I don't know much about the ECLA. How does it differ from the Missouri and Wisconsin? |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 885
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 9:47 am: | |
You can go to the official ELCA website. There you will learn about them. I have been to many Lutheran churches and no two are the same. They all have the same beliefs but the format and the worship styles are much different one from another. At St. Timothy's in Lakewood, Ca. the format if High Worship, which I totally love. At the beginning of the service they have a procession of bringing in th crosses and the congreation stands and faces the crosses. This is done again at the end of the service when they exit the church with the crosses. Towards the front of the church is a baptizimal font. It was so funny. I went there one Sunday awhile back and sometime before he service someone had gotten ino the church and when no one was looking put several inches of sand in the baptizmal font and several little woodys, stood up some little surfboards and aone little plastic people in swimming suits, some little pieces of cloth to look like beack towels and had taped a sign to the baptizmal font, "Hey, after church let's go surfing". I think this is one reason how come I am so drawn to the Lutheran-the wonderful, totally clean-cut sense of humor. It as been my experience that SDA's generally lack a sense or humor or a sense of joy. I have known many SDA's throughout my life (I was raised one and I'm now in my 50's.) and by and large I think I can honestly say they are not a very happy, peaceful or contented group of folks. At the Lutheran there is a great sense of reverance and awe of being in the presence of God. It's a wonderful experience each week when I can worship in a Lutheran church. |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 33
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 4:24 pm: | |
Thanks for the info, Susan. There's an ELCA congregation just down the road from us that has a contemporary service--we'll probably check that out sometime soon. We didn't go anywhere today--I was too wiped out from starting back to college after having dropped out about 20 years ago. Hopefully I can adjust quickly enough that I won't stay away from church too long! |
Dane
Registered user
Username: Dane
Post Number: 32
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 5:32 pm: | |
One of my colleagues is a life long Lutheran (Missouri synod) and a wonderful Christian. I asked him about ELCA and he said it's the same as Wimsonsin. His opinion was that they tend to be quite legalistic and exclusive.
Dane |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 163
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 10:52 am: | |
Dane,
Of the three Lutheran denominations; namely, ELCA, Missouri Synod, and Wisconsin Synod, I listed them in the order of liberal to conservative. For example, the Missouri and Wisconsin Synods will not even allow an ELCA member to have communion with them. Furthermore, Lutherans believe in the Catholic teaching of transubstantiation (meaning the communion emblems actually become the blood and body of Christ--not remaining symbols).
The view of transubstantiation causes some unique and unavoidable pastoral/chaplaincy problems. For example, a Lutheran pastor recently mentioned (on a radio program) his dilemma when administering communion to a dying hospital patient. Being the dying person was not 100 percent coherent, she spit out the wafer he had placed in her mouth. Now his dilemma was what to do with the wafer--being that it was the actual body of Jesus. The body of Jesus was literally in his hand. He didn't tell us how he solved his predicament though.
Also, Missouri and Wisconsin Synods forbid their members in joining fraternal secret societies (i.e., Masonic Lodge, Elks, etc.). The ELCA does not have a prohibition on this matter. Additionally, the ELCA is comfortable with theistic evolution--even the pure evolution taught in universities today. I know several evolutionist professors that are active members of the ELCA.
Lutherans also believe in confessing their sins to their pastor. In practice, however, they usually just IGNORE Martin Luther's Little Catechism and offer a corporate confession of sin during communion. A Missouri Synod member recently told me that they are supposed to at least confess a felony to their pastor. Another ELCA view is that Scripture is not to be literally interpreted. Consequently, this view enables their tolerance of evolution, etc.
Dennis J. Fischer |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 34
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 8:54 pm: | |
Dennis,
That is also my understanding about the relative degree of liberalism in each group. Since I have a family full of very conservative Lutherans, they are quick to talk about the "heathen liberals" in the ELCA.
I believe that the Lutheran teaching is consubstantiation which to many protestants seems too Catholic, but to most Catholics would be too protestant. Consubstantiation is the teaching that the emblems remain the physical emblems but the presense of Christ is literally with them (as compared to transubstantiation where the emblems are literally changed). Subtle, but important difference to a Lutheran.
I also believe that Luther's teaching on private confession (as compared to the commonly used corporate confessions in Lutheran churches today) was that private confession was useful but not required. I have never heard of any "degree of sins" relative to the need for confession among Lutherans, and it certainly sounds strange to me. |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 907
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 9:27 pm: | |
Although not a scholar of Luthernism I do know a little about the denomination. I hold my membership in the ELCA. I also attend quite frequently services at the Wisconsion and Missouri churches. They do not withhold Communion from anyone. They always announce before commnion that all bapitized Christians who truly believe that the wine is the Blood of Jesus and they truly believe the Bread is the Body of Jesus are welcome to partisipate in Communion. About absolution of sins-at worship we confess our sins. Then the minister says, "As a called and ordained minister of the Church of Christ and by His authoriy, I therefore delare to you the entire forgiveness of all your sins, in the name of the Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. Amen"., Lutheran Book of Worship, age 194. Then the pastor says, "In obedience to the command of our Lord Jesus Christ, I forgive you all your sins". Now, I know some of you out there in cyberland don't much go along with this but it is stright from Jesus Himself. He commanded His deciples to go out to the multipudes "bapitizing them and forgiving their sins". This is STRIGHT JESUS. Right now the big deals of discussion in the Lutheran churches is if it's o.k. to bring guns into the church. Some synod Back East somewhere passed a resolution to ban guns in churches. I think that's stupid and frankly I would feel safer knowing the good, decent, law-abiding Lutherans have concealed weapons. Some folks believe on relying on God's power alone, in church anyway. The other points of curent discussion is the ordination of homosexuals and the proposed admendment to the Constitutation to declare marriage between one man and one woman at a time. Fortunatelly I attend a very conservitive congreation who generally is anti-homosexuals as ordained ministers and our minister has written a letter to our Representives/Senator from our area in support of marriage being between one man and one woman at a time. Wanna hear something funny? My son and his friends have just battered and fried up potato bugs. Now they are calling another friend to come over for chicken nuggets. |
