| Author | Message | ||
| Krista Registered user Username: Krista Post Number: 4 Registered: 8-2004 |
Hi and forgive me for my lack of knowledge! (I'm quitting SDA after 2 years.) I would love to get everyone's opinion on these subjects: 1. Did the Sunday Law idea originate with EGW? I couldn't find anything in the Bible about this and the whole idea seems very strange to me. 2. Did EGW inspire a hatred of Catholics and/or Catholic symbols? 3. Where did the idea of Jesuits originate, and what are you feelings about them? Thanks in advance!  PS - Please pray for our friends in central and south Florida who experienced the hurricane. Luckily, we were only out of electricity for the weekend until Sunday night, but many others don't have power yet and some don't have water. Huge fallen trees are everywhere and lots of places are closed until next week. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 77 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thanks for throwing out these questions, Krista. I have a lack of knowledge, too. The only difference is I didn't quit for 40 years! I am looking forward to hearing some great historical stories. What exactly are Jesuits (besides being RC)? I have always thought they were harmless missionaries that wear Puritan-syle clothing (maybe I'm confusing them with Quaker?)...is there something more to them? Krista's third question intrigues me. May all of you in Florida see God's presence amongst the fallen trees and destruction. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 860 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hi, Krista. It's interesting that you mentioned this because just last night I was wondering the same thing. So I went to the links on this site and went to the one called Adventist Outreach. Also the EllenWhite.org is good. On Adventist Outreach he has a lot of history and information on this topic. I read Dirk's entire book, "Sunday Law, Fact or Fiction", I think that's the title. In there he gives all the history of the SDA's having this taching as well as the imposibility of this ever happening. On the Adventist Outreach site you can see the picture of the billboard a SDA fellow put up in Oregon saying that Sunday is of the pope. It says something like to worship on Sunday equals going to hell. I sometimes think the SDA's I know are not so much devoted to Sabbath-keeping as they are fearful of any worship on Sunday. Yet, they will sit glued in front of their T.V.'s on Sundays to watch Mark Findley, Doug Botchler and the likes. I will point out to them that the SDA's have church on Sundays themselves but I'm told that it is different because the SDA's are worshiping God and it just happemd to be Sunday whereas others are really "Sunday-keepers". The history of this goes back to egw. She says, and the sda still teaches, that the final seal of those with the truth is Sabbath-keeping. The Bible plainly teaches it is the Holy Spirit. The sda is a fear ased religion. Since Jesus isn't much promoted they keep their members and get new ones through their fear doctrines. When people realize this they leave, like you have done. Some of the stuff on those sites will just about blow your socks off. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 861 Registered: 11-2002 |
I wanted to add that sda's consider the word "day" in the Bible to mean "year". This does not apply to the creation story when the word "day" means "day". From what I've been able to figure out the SDA's have it down to a science of making the Bible fit their docrines and not having their doctrines fit the Bible. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 482 Registered: 3-2004 |
The Jesuits are an order of Catholic priests. I am not sure when they started or where. They were around when Columbus discovered America. That is all I know about them. As for the Sunday Law and the hatred of the Roman Catholic church originating with EGW, that is something I am not sure about. My son noticed the hatred of Catholics by the SDA as a teenager. I was taught in SDA schools, but I did not learn to hate them as I have a lot of Catholic relatives on my Mom's side and one of her first cousins is a Catholic priest. So I have loved Catholics inspite of what I learned at school. Diana | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 862 Registered: 11-2002 |
There are four orders of Catholic priests. The Benedictines, the Jesuits, the Franciscians and the well, the last one isn't coming to me right now. The Jesuits started Harvard University. They are known to be the most rigid, the most into pushing their congreations to follow the laws, the rules of the Catholic faith, the least to preach grace. Cailfornia owes much of its history to the missionaries, expecially Father Junipero Serra who founded most of the missions up and down the coast. I am trying to become a scholar of California history and one of my goals is to tour each mission. I've done around one-third already. Anyway, from my touring the missions I have learned the difference between a priest and a frier, as opposed to a fryer who is someone who barbeques. (That was a stab at humor.) A fryer is between monk and priest. They can preform some preistly duties but are not privledged with marrying and burying. I'm not sure about offering Communion. My favorite Christian singer is John Michael Talbot who is a monk. I heard him in concert last year at a Catholic church in a nearby city. I urge everyone to listen to his songs, many that he writes. His singing is like listening to the angels in heaven. But, really, the Jesuits are just one of four different preistly orders. Generally SDA's will say they do not mean Jesuits when they say Jesuits. What the sda's say they mean is that they use the word "Jesuits" in reference to the pope and the Catholic church in general. Again, we are not getting a stright answer from the SDA's in what they mean with the words they use. Most SDA's that I know don't even know that Jesuits are really just one order of preists. They do know to fear and loathe them though and this is so sad. | ||
| Vchowdhury1 Registered user Username: Vchowdhury1 Post Number: 20 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hi Krista, I would also like to point you to the websites www.ellenwhite.org, and also www.truthorfables.com. These websites are very informative regarding the so called "national Sunday Law" which sda's are so excited about. The U.S.congress of 1889 was considering passing a national Sunday law in that year. EGW and her follows got all excited and declared that this law would pass, probation will close, and Christ will come in the next 7 years (another WRONG prediction). However, the law went down in defeat, so EGW and her followers had to "go back to the drawing board" and think of something else. They came up with the idea that her vision meant that a National Sunday Law would pass in the future. But, They failed to say what type of event in the future would warrant a National Sunday Law! What would have to happen in this country that the Congress, Senate, President, Supreme Court, etc. would find it necessary to pass a Sunday law! It doesnt make any sense! Add to that, we have so many other influencial groups of people and religions that NEVER would stand for National Sunday Law. There are millions of Jews (there are thousands of Jews that are even very influencial in our government), Moslims, Seventh-Day Baptist, Seventh-Day Pentecostal, SDA's, Buddhist, etc. What makes the SDA's think that ALL of these groups and religions would just sit back and let a national sunday law pass!! The whole idea, if you ask me, is totally ridiculous!! Also, sda's did not keep the Sabbath themselves, until in the 1860's a Seventh Day Baptist woman, named Rachel Preston, introduced Joseph Bates, and EGW to the Sabbath. The sda's tell people that the Sabbath will be God's seal on the people that will be saved in the last days. But the Bible tells us that the Holy Spirit will be the seal of Gods people in the last days. I choose to believe the word of God. Also, EGW says that only those who accept the Sabbath will be saved. Yet, William Miller, whow was one of the founders of early adventism rejected the Sabbath. Yet, EGW had a "vision" that William Miller will be in heaven. So, which is it? | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 168 Registered: 10-2001 |
Hi Krista, From what I studied on the Sunday Laws, I found that basically it was the Anglicans that instituted then when they first came to America. America was supposed to be founded on freedom of religion but the Anglicans hated the Jews and wanted to continue to persecute them. Thomas Jefferson saw that the Sunda Blue Laws were affecting the businesses of the Jews since they were closed on Sat. due to thier religion and forced to be closed on Sunday, so he instituted the 5 day work week, with the exception of a few businesses that were neccessary to operate. Funny, all of these years later, VA is having trouble because some people found out about the laws being on the books and are trying to get out of work on Sunday, making a lot of employers really mad, so they are supposed to take them completely off of the books there in 2005, they have already done away with part of them. So much for SDA prophesy! Great to have you here! Sabra | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 584 Registered: 12-2003 |
Krista, Ellen wrote in the Great Controversy that just before the time of trouble, the United States would pass a Sunday law that stated no one could work on Sunday but would have to observe it as a day of rest. This, she said, would soon be followed by an international Sunday law declaring Sunday the universal day of rest and worship. Interestingly, she also counseled that Adventists would have no need to provoke officials to suspicion and anger by blatantly working on Sunday; they could use Sunday as an evangelism day, etc., thus appearing to honor the day while still "keeping" Sabbath. Her prophecies, though, went on to say that the governments of the world would ultimately enforce Sunday observance, and they would be sent out to eradicate those who did not keep the day. This hunting down of non-Sunday keepers (in EGW, that means' "Sabbath-keepers" and never intimates what might happen to Friday-worshiping Muslims, etc.) would usher in the Time of Trouble when God's people sealed with the Sabbath would have to run to the hills and hide for their lives--all without benefit of a mediator. The Holy Spirit, she said, would be withdrawn from the earth, and only those in whom the character of Jesus was perfectly reproduced would be able to withstand the Time of Trouble because only they would be able to obey God's commandments without benefit of the Holy Spirit making up the difference of their inadquate efforts. Their efforts would be adequate. The Sunday Law notion as a sign of the end is pure Ellen. She also captialized on a fairly common Christian fear (at that time) of the pope and Catholicism. She developed it to a degree that I think pretty much surpasses other Christians' fears. She states that the Catholic church changed Sabbath to Sunday by edict of Constantine, and that the Catholic church will join forces with "apostate Protestantism" and "Spiritism" to bring about Sunday laws and the attempted eradication of Sabbath-keepers. I don't know too much about the Jesuits. I do know they are considered the scholarly order of the Catholic church. They emphasize education, and they are often theologically quite liberal. I believe they also have their hands in many financial schemes and are quite wealthy. (The fund-raising organization run by Robert Folkenberg's business partner who sued him in late 1998 was a Jesuit corporation and was supposedly raising money for the Vatican.) They do take some sort of vow when they join the order, and my understanding is that the vow includes a commitment to kill infidels if necessary. (Hence the paralyzing fear of SDAs for Jesuits.) As Sabra said, there have been Sunday laws in local areas, but in general they are mostly not enforced anymore. No, Sunday Laws are not in the Bible! Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 863 Registered: 11-2002 |
When I was a kid the sda's taught the Sunday laws would be WORLDWIDE, not just here in the USA. In fact, I think this is the official teaching even now. That makes no sense at all because of the diversity of the worlds peoples. However, it is the only way the sda's can make it work because to say it will only be a United States law everyone would just think of immegrating to a different country. I remember as a child I could not make sense out of this. All the grown-ups woul tell me was that someday Adventists would not be allowed to buy or sell or work on Sundays. I would think, "So what? I don't like shopping anyway and I don't have anything I want to sell and it will be nice when I'm a grown-up to have a day off from work so I'm all for it". I just never could "connect" with my SDA upbringing and my SDA kin. Nothing, and I honestly mean, nothing, ever made sense to me about the SDA religion, especially that corny Sunday law doctrine. The really sad thing tho s that the SDA's really truly believe that "Sunday-keeping" Christians during The Time of Trouble will turn on them because of the Sabbath and tortue and persecuate them because they have the truth of the forth commandment. It's stupid and it's sad the control this doctrine holds over the SDA's. Remember, SDA misspelled is SAD. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 486 Registered: 3-2004 |
It seems I remember, and I could be wrong, so correct me if I am, that all the world was to follow the USA in worshipping on Sunday. I never really paid much attention to all of that. It really scared me and I did not want to think of it. After I joined my 12 step group I developed a relationship with God and decided that whatever happened before He came, nothing would happen to me because I was working on developing that relationship with God. As long as I had an active relationship with God I was taken care of. Diana | ||
| Vchowdhury1 Registered user Username: Vchowdhury1 Post Number: 21 Registered: 7-2004 |
When I was a young girl growing up in the sda church, we had a minister, Pastor Hope R. Robertson, that ran a series on Daniel and Revelation for 8 weeks. His descriptions of what "we" sda's would have to go through in the "time of trouble" and "tribulation" mixed of course with biblical prophecy and the "prophecy" of EGW, were very scary and graphic. He had "workbooks" and "sermon notes" that my parents took home and I would here them read these every night. I can remember as a small child of about 10 years old, sitting in the bath tub late one night crying my eyes out and later having terrible nightmares because I was SO SCARED! When this minister would describe the "Beast with 7 heads" and the "Beast with the Little Horn" I thought he was speaking in "literal" terms. Children at the age of 10 cannot think in "abstract". They take things as being "literal". Today, I think that because I spent so much time in the sda church being literally "scared" to death that part of my childhood was taken away. Sometimes I find myself very resentful of sda's because of this. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 865 Registered: 11-2002 |
The pictures they print of those beasts are very literal lookig beasts. I have an Amazing Fiction book by Doug Botchler about understanding Daniel and Revelations and on the front cover of this book are pictures of really scary looking beasts. I, too as a child understoond these things to be literal, like those horrid mean beasts would be chasing us around and that's why we'd have to flee to the wilderness. I still believe with all my heart that the sda church teaches that the 666 mark will be literally tattood on a persons forehead and hand. The Lutheran church and I think most other churches this is a symboic thing to mean non-Christians will have a difficult time during that time. | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 19 Registered: 7-2004 |
The thing that scared me most as a child was not the beasts (as scary as they were) but the teaching that when the Sunday Law was passed, probation was CLOSED!!!! I knew that if I had just one sin unconfessed that I would burn up. I used to wake up in the night (usually around 3 a.m.) and just torture myself thinking if this white lie I told someone was unconfessed, and would I not go to heaven if I didn't go to that person and tell them that I had done a misdeed. I was tortured by this, and all because of Ellen. Did she want everyone to be as miserable as she was when she was a teenager? I feel like I missed out on the happiness of being accepted completely by Jesus Christ. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 80 Registered: 7-2004 |
Bb - As a child I, too, spent time in the dark of night fearing. I worried about my parents being taken away and than being given the chose to keep Sunday or watch my parents be killed. Horrifying! I have had to work on a great deal of anger from all these "stories" being told to me. Not only from the stories themselves but as you said from missing out on the love of Jesus which essentially lead to choices I made as an adult and the life I lead without God. Last year in my Bible study we went through the Old Testament minor prophets. There was a chapter in Joel that brought peace to my regrets and anger. Joel begins his short book descibing the devastation of locusts (gnawing, swarming, creeping, stripping - which reminded me of living my life with the God of the SDA church). Then Joel talks about starvation and drought (which made me think of living without God because of anger and confusing Him with the SDA church). In chapter 2 verse 12 the LORD provides an escape (reminds me of His Holy Spirit that is my own provision!). The part of Joel that I liked the best...Joel 2:25,26..."Then I will make up to you for the years...You will have plenty to eat and be satisfied..." In my Bible margin I wrote Eph. 3:16-19...check it out...because of those SDA years my life today is overflowing with blessing (It doesn't mean I would choose to live it again!! ). | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 20 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dd, I looked up that text, it is awesome!!!!!!! It totally goes against the SDA belief that we will have to go through a "time of Jacob's trouble". That is another thing I could never comprehend.....how can we have peace and want Jesus to come if we know we are going to have to go through a time where His presence is not with us!!?? That sounds horrifying to me. Yet that is what they teach will happen after the "close of probation". That Ephesians text disputes that, and so does that text that says, "and lo, I am with you ALWAYS, even to the END of the world". You are right, maybe we are better for the experience, I think I am more sensitive to others because of my upbringing. Do you go to BSF? I did last year and we studied the old testament minor prophets. The year before was when they studied the book of John. I was studying out of adventism then, and it was such a blessing to go in to that study with an open mind! | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 81 Registered: 7-2004 |
Yes, Bb. I have been going to BSF for 6 years. This year the study of Acts is my last  . I plan to do all the studies over again. God has used BSF in a tremendous way in my life. It is very clear that the Bible is THE ONLY source I need! He does not need anyone (except the Holy Spirit, of course!) to tell me truths. Are you going to do the study of Acts? I would love to discuss the topics we cover in BSF with another former. Let me know! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 492 Registered: 3-2004 |
What is BSF? Diana | ||
| Ladylittle Registered user Username: Ladylittle Post Number: 46 Registered: 4-2004 |
Bible Study Fellowship International | ||
| Jenntooth Registered user Username: Jenntooth Post Number: 12 Registered: 4-2004 |
Just a thought on Sunday Laws... My husband and I were discussing the very real possibility that instead of a Sunday law that leads to persecution of "sabbath keepers", we think that eventually Christianity will be done away with and we won't be free to worship as we do today. Look at how the world embraces muslims, jews, etc but we can't have a cross as a symbol or talk about God in public without being accused of violating the "rights" of others. What about our rights as Christians? Ultimately, God is asking us to stand for what we believe in the face of opposition and persecution. So if I want to have a 15 foot cross in my yard to remember my savior, I'll fight for my right to do so... Just my 2 cents. |
