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Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 192
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 9:30 pm: |     |
ADVENTIST TODAY ZAPS TITHING THREAD
Several years ago, when Adventist Today still had a message board, several posters had a comprehensive, biblical thread on tithing. One of the best contributors was Michael Webb, co-author of the 328-page book entitled, BEYOND TITHES AND OFFERINGS.
Many are still convinced that the tithing thread was largely responsible for Adventist Today to pull the plug on their conversation cafe. The stark contrast presented between the Old and New Covenants was more than the webmasters at Adventist Today could handle. For several years now, the Spectrum website has indicated that a conversation cafe was "coming soon." When I inquired about the long delay several months ago,
they replied that personnel shortages prevented its reality.
All in all, an open online forum does not blend well with the SDA belief system. With its closed theology, Adventism feels threatened with any dissenting viewpoints--especially the Bible-based ones. Interestingly, the General Conference also pulled the plug on their official, online discussion forum several years ago. The tithing thread at Adventist Today was deleted suddenly and entirely.
This was a major study on the topic of tithing. It is akin to a scientific researcher suddenly losing all his data. In short, Adventist Today DESTROYED their tithing thread but allowed other threads to be tranferred to another liberal SDA website. Many serious Bible students still lament that valuable loss. Indeed, truth was more than they could bear!
Dennis J. Fischer |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 195
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Monday, October 18, 2004 - 5:11 pm: | |
The Annual Council of Seventh-day Adventists has authorized a 59-member committee to study tithing. No dates were set for the committee's final report. Theologians, administrators, and a few lay people are on this new committee.
Apparently, they need more money (smile).
Dennis J. Fischer |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 657
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, October 18, 2004 - 5:49 pm: | |
With people not paying their tithe as SDAs, people leaving the SDA church and new churches being established, like in Colorado, it is no wonder they need money (BIG SMILE),
Diana |
Jdpascal
Registered user
Username: Jdpascal
Post Number: 5
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 18, 2004 - 9:32 pm: | |
With 59 members on the committee, how much tithe is it costing to study tithing?
If they would just preach the gospel and allow the Holy Spirit to work, there wouldn't be a problem.
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 827
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2004 - 10:15 am: | |
Dennis, I just read your post above from Friday re: Adventist Today's missing tithing thread. How interesting--I hadn't known about that! I did know that they closed their discussion board a few years ago and transferred the talk to another site, but the tithing thread...how telling!
For all their liberal dabbling with non-traditional SDA ideas, still the staff at AT is, bottom line, truly Adventist. They just believe that Adventism is a "big enough umbrella" to cover many differing opinions--as long as they don't strike at the true foundation of the church.
Colleen |
33ad
Registered user
Username: 33ad
Post Number: 56
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2004 - 4:51 am: | |
Hi,
I haven't been following this thread till now as "Tithing" is not an issue with me. It's not how much we have to give God, but why we give want to give. In fact, we can't truly 'give', because we own nothing. Everything we have belongs to God as far as I'm concerned. I'm only a steward. I return some of what God has entrusted to me in gratitude to Him.
Tracy, I know this is quite a while back, but you said "Abraham tithed prior to the law". If you study the event, Abraham only gave Melchizedek a tenth of the Plunder he had taken from Sodom. There was no other record of Abraham "tithing". What this boils down to for the Christian is "God loves a cheerful giver." And it doesn't have to go to a church either. This has more to do with the 'Test' of being a true Christian and whether or not we gain entrance to the Kingdom.
Matthew 25:34-36 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' The issue isn't about tithing, it's about looking after the lambs and sheep.
God Bless
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Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 32
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2004 - 9:19 am: | |
About Abraham's titheing the plunder - not only did he tithe it, he gave the rest of his portion of the blunder back to the king of Sodom! I've wondered what would have happened if he had kept it. Would he have replaced the king? Would the fate of Sodom been different?
Just some thoughts!
Helovesme2 |
Jerry
Registered user
Username: Jerry
Post Number: 428
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2004 - 9:38 am: | |
Tithing is such a sad subject.
It is truly difficult for some people to understand that what is called "tithing" by many churches (including the SDA Church) is an unfortunately severe distortion of the various types of tithe mentioned in the Bible.
The tithe of Abraham was different from the tithe of Jacob. The tithes of those two patriarchs was very different from the Levitical tithe.
Surely there are common threads of purpose throughout all of the various offerings commanded by God. Those common threads are generosity, gratitude, penitence, service, and support for God's work and people. However, each served its own purpose for specific people in specific circumstances.
I cringe to consider the wrong that has been done by distorting and transforming the purposes to bribery of God, and guilt ransom to be paid in order to buy one's way to heaven.
God needs no bribe, He owns all.
God requires no ransom, He paid the true ransom through His son Jesus.
Give what you can for the love of God and your neighbor. You cannot please God any more than that. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 832
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2004 - 11:07 am: | |
What interesting questions, Helovesme2!
I agree, Jerry, with the sadness of the distortion and bribery done over the centuries in order to guilt people into giving to "God". God truly does not need our money. He wants US--which includes all we have and are and do. He wants us to have hearts of flesh instead of hearts of stone.
Colleen |
33ad
Registered user
Username: 33ad
Post Number: 57
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2004 - 10:51 pm: | |
You said it just the way I should have said it, Colleen;-) Jesus just wants us! No % could ever be enough. Jesus gave all! And we should return all to Him by serving on behalf of Him to our Brothers and Sisters, be it love, money, lending a helping hand, giving a cool drink or just being there for someone in Spiritual or financial need.
God bless
Loren |
Doc
Registered user
Username: Doc
Post Number: 146
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 12:39 pm: | |
Jesus wants us!
That's it.
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Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 665
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 5:41 pm: | |
It is so freeing/liberating to know that Jesus wants all of me, not my tithe and my "keeping" one day during the week. Every day He wants me to do what ever He puts in front of me. Hallelujah. You are Awesome God.
Diana |
Mitsy
Registered user
Username: Mitsy
Post Number: 19
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 7:38 am: | |
I guess you could say I've always had a problem with the word "tithe". To me it has always sounded legalistic much like the "dress standards" that are also expected from members. In reality, the tithe issue as well as the jewelry issue are from the Old Testament. Even though many other denominations believe in the 10% rule, I consider any form of expected percentage as a legalistic rule. It makes you feel like you're paying to be in a club rather than supporting a church. I think people should give what they can when they can but to put that kind of pressure on people is not faith-promoting. It's just another form of legalism. |
Pheeki
Registered user
Username: Pheeki
Post Number: 419
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 9:08 am: | |
I agree Mitsy! |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 226
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 8:31 pm: | |
Historians usually agree that, not until A. D. 567, five hundred and thirty-seven (537) years after Calvary, did the Church's first substantial attempt to enforce tithing under its own authority appear in history! The Council of Tours in 567 and the Council of Macon in 585 enacted regional church decrees for tithing and excommunication of non-tithers, but did not receive authority from the king to enforce collection through civil decrees. It is significant that tithing did not emerge historically until the church became powerful in the secular realm. Eventually, the Roman Church even refused to administer last rites if it was not given wealth or land in wills.
The believer-priest is at the heart of the New Covenant! Instead of priests being responsible for teaching the Mosaic Law, every believer today is responsible for his or her own spiritual seeking after God's will. It was only when the believer-priest mandate began to seriously erode that a hierarchical clergy emerged in Christian history. Before the Levitical priesthood was installed under the Old Covenant, God was counting on every Israelite to constitute a "kingdom of priests" (Ex. 19:5-6). However, due to their sins (e. g., worshiping the golden calf, etc.) they forfeited that sacred position. The Levitical priesthood was actually a detour of God's preferred, original plan for Israel. Tithing has no role with the New Covenant believer-priest. Pastors and teachers today are similar to the prophets of the Old Testament and later rabbis. Also, tithing is not included in the list of qualifications for elders and deacons in the New Testament.
Interestingly, the early Christians (including the Apostle Paul) always maintained a profession or trade to satisfy Roman authorities. Anyone declaring himself as a fulltime, Christian clergyman would have faced severe penalties, including death, under the Emperors. The Roman government required periodic registrations of one's occupation for tax purposes, etc. Obviously, reporting that you were a full-time Christian missionary (an illegal religion until the time of Constantine the Great) would have been disastrous.
What would have happened if Israel had not sinned in making and worshiping the golden calves? The sequence of events is not difficult to imagine. Israel would have immediately become a "kingdom of priests." If all were priests then all would inherit land equally. Tithes would not replace land inheritance. Since there would be millions of priests to assist Aaron and his family, none would be gone from home long enough to require sustenance from tithing. The tithing ordinance of Numbers 18 would have never been enacted.
In the Church Age, all Christians are unconditionally constituted a "kingdom of priests" (1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 1:6), a distinction which Israel failed to achieve by works. The priesthood of the Christian is, therefore, a birthright, just as every descendant of Aaron was born to the priesthood (Heb. 5:1). The priesthood of believers eliminates the purpose of tithing.
Dennis J. Fischer |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 982
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 10:35 am: | |
That's so interesting, Dennis. I'd never quite seen the tithing issue from that perspective before. Thanks!
Colleen |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 765
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 7:21 pm: | |
Dennis,
Thank you for the unknown perspective on tithing. It is very interesting.
Diana |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 278
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 3:50 pm: | |
THE ANCIENT RISE AND RECENT FALL OF TITHING:
Is yet another time-honored Christian practice fading from view?
NOTE: This article by Collin Hansen appears on the website of Christianity Today at: http://www.christianitytoday.com/global/printer.html?/history/newsletter/2003/jun6.html Here are a few excerpts from the article:
"During the first few years of the twenty-first century, Americans have already contended with a remarkable amount of political and economic tumult, ranging from the Sept. 11 attacks to the collapse of the 1990s economic boom to military conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq. Uneasiness and caution have ruled the financial decision-making of many American households. Now, recently released statistics from the Barna Research Group indicate that this pervasive apprehension may have contributed to a dramatic one-year decrease in the number of American homes that tithe to their churches.
Barna's dats shows that only 3 percent of adults contributed 10 percent of their 2002 income to churches, which marks a 62 percent decrease from 2001 when 8 percent of American adults tithed. Among born-again Christians, the decline was similarly steep, from 14 percent in 2001 to 6 percent in 2002. Barna attributes the sudden drop to a variety of factors, including the soft economy and ongoing terrorism threat. But he also pegs shifting church demographics--younger adults don't share their parents' and grandparents' convictions about tithing.
This generation seems not so much put off as mystified by the concept. Their questions are honest enough: "Who came up with the figure of ten percent? Why should we take this figure as authoritative? Isn't tithing legalism?" Here, as in most churchly matters, a bit of history can go a long way."
This translates into bad news for the Seventh-day Adventist Church as well. Finally, Christians of many denominations are asking the right questions about the tithing codes of the Old Testament.
Dennis J. Fischer
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