| Author |
Message |
Bb
Registered user
Username: Bb
Post Number: 28
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 7:57 am: |     |
Ok, I just looked something up that might help me with this text. It was on holybible.com
and it is an explanation of the verse.
Not only had the light of the world gone out, but also the earth's great foundation Rock had been smitten (compare Exodus 17:6). But the veil had been rent and the graves of the saints were opened. The saints whose bodies were raised could only have been the men and women who had died in faith before the first coming of Christ. Until Christ set them free, their souls had been resting in that division of Hades called "Abraham's bosom" (Luke 16:22). However, when "he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive" after He had "descended first into the lower parts of the earth" (Ephesians 4:8,9).
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Pw
Registered user
Username: Pw
Post Number: 126
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 9:16 am: | |
I always wondered what happened with those who were raised from the dead during the earthquake when Christ rose. Did they die again or ascend after a certain time period? Or is it possible they could still be alive testifying in various places? Now there's a true mystery. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 631
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 1:49 pm: | |
It is a mystery, for sure. There really is no consensus about the implications of that text. Did they go to heaven when Jesus went? (uh-perhaps not...) Did they die again? Why did they come to life? Was it a transition time for pre-cross saved souls and post-cross saved souls?
It seems all the questions suggest possible realities, but we really have no certain answers. Still, the fact that those bodies were raised at His death (not at His resurrection!) does suggest that his blood and his death changed something in the universe and broke the curse of death.
How amazing!
Colleen |
Pw
Registered user
Username: Pw
Post Number: 127
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 2:01 pm: | |
I'm sure EGW made up some crazy theory regarding this situation of those who were raised during the earthquake (not that I care anymore). If the Bible is silent about what went on regarding this incident then I truly doubt that anyone has any more insight about it...even these if these so-called latter day prophets claim to have "special light". Some things are not meant to be revealed just yet, like when Christ will return. |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 101
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 2:15 pm: | |
I would like to know what EGW's explaination is regarding these verses. Anybody know off hand? |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 3
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 2:27 pm: | |
I think EGW taught that they were raised at Christ's death and were taken with Him to heaven when he assended as part of the "antitypical wave sheaf" after testifying to his ressurection here on earth in between. But I could not give you a reference for it. |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 102
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 3:04 pm: | |
He loves me - (I really like your "name")
H-m-m-m..."antitypical wave sheaf" that is a new term for me...would you please explain it to me? Now that you mention it, I think I remember something about the testifying to Christ's ressurection. What is the "in between", though? Maybe after my kids are in bed tonight I can find it on ellenwhite.org or truthorfable. Thanks for sharing with me.
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Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 4
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 11:20 am: | |
Dd,
"Antitypical Wave Sheaf" comes from the idea that what the Israelites experienced on a yearly cycle would be experienced in the Christian Era "Once for All", so the crucifiction of Christ was the one sacrifice (rather than repeating it every day, and each of the religious festivals were to be linked with particular parts of the Christian era culminating with the "Antitypical Day of Atonement" which was understood (by SDAs) to begin in 1844 and the return of Christ sometime thereafter.
the "in between" simply referred to them testifying from the time they were raised (I think JWs say that only their bodies were raised and they did not enter the city until they were given life at Jesus resurrection, but I could be way off there) to the time they allegedly assended with Christ in a symbol of his second coming and as the 'firstfruits of them that will be saved.
I don't know if ellenwhite.org or truthorfables mention anything about it. Let me know what you find out!
helovesme2 |
Pw
Registered user
Username: Pw
Post Number: 128
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 8:53 am: | |
I remember EGW's version of what Lazarus said when he was raised from the dead. She claims people were asking him what he remembered during that time and he had no recollection. How in the world did she know this? Another bogus claim that she had no clue about. |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 460
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 10:23 am: | |
That's the same illogical argument B gave...because the Bible didn't record what Lazarus said about his time in the grave, he must not have had anything to remember....It doesn't tell us many things, but you can't make an argument from silence. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 638
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 10:24 am: | |
I've heard my conservative SDA relatives talk about the fact that we are in "the antitypcial Day of Atonement". To them, the true Day of Atonement was not the day Jesus died as the once-for-all atonement for the world's sins. Instead, it's the (still) indefinite period between 1844 and Jesus' return. True Adventism teaches that Christ didn't start "applying" His blood to our sins until 1844 when the IJ began. Until then--well, until then, he was--um--in heaven, but not yet done with His work which He really didn't start until 1844--except that He had died, but that was just a promise that eventually His blood would cover our sins--so He really couldn't have entered heaven and sat down at the right hand of the Father as Hebrews says--it's all so confusing and guilt-inducing and uncertain. These distinctive Adventist details are the reasons Jack Blanco had to edit the Clear Word so much. He had to achieve wording that would be compatible with the IJ and the SDA view of Christ's function between the cross and 1844, and from 1844 to the second coming--
Oh, it makes me tired and restless to try to think through those confusing and hopeless doctrines!
Praise God for Jesus' finished work!
Colleen |
Pw
Registered user
Username: Pw
Post Number: 129
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 11:16 am: | |
You know, this whole 1844 debate is so moronic. I still can't see how they ever connected that Jesus entered the "holy of holies" in heaven at this time and then started applying his blood for our sins. He clearly said "IT IS FINISHED" before he died on the cross. He didn't say it WILL be finished. |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 895
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 12:28 pm: | |
I have numerous ex-in-laws who are JW. They believe Jesus came invisibly in 1914 and they are now waiting for his visible return which will happen after Armegddon at which time only the faithful JW's will survve. The SDA's teach only the faithful Sabbath-keepers (SDAS's) will survive. They also believe after Jesus's resurrection He was in spirit form and the accounts of Him being with His deciples and showing the wounds on the hands etc., to his deciples was because He could manifest a physical appearence but really He was in spirit form. It always made my mind spin to hear their babble. It makes my mind spin to hear the SDA babble, too. BTW, the SDA and the JW both were results of the Millerite Movement. Th two groups could not agree on what date to set for the return of Jesus so one group became the SDA and the ther group became the JW. Both groups as we know were wrong. Both groups then concocked a far fetched tale to absolve them selves. The SDA's made up the story of 1844 and the IJ. The JW's made up the story that Jesus came invisibly in 1914. 1914 for those of you out there who may be wondering the significance of that daye is when the Watchtower Organization was formed. Both groups also clain to trace their roots back to the origional deciples but cannot show any proof of this claim. Both groups are totally works oriented and claim to be "the little flock" of Revelation. |
Pw
Registered user
Username: Pw
Post Number: 130
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 12:54 pm: | |
Susan-2, one thing that you can debate with a JW is that Jesus WAS in body form when he appeared to the disciples. He told Thomas to touch his hands and see that was in a physical body. He even went as far to say that he was flesh and bone because a spirit didn't have flesh and bones. He also demonstrated his body by eating a piece of fish. Of course, dealing with JW's is a whole different ball game compared to the SDA's but they are both equally wrong in their doctrines. However one thing they both agree on is the soul sleep theory. Knowing that their teachings are incorrect about everything else, then I know that this topic is a lie as well. It's just a way to avoid having to deal with the reality of facing God when you die. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 644
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 11:08 am: | |
Wow, Pw, powerful observeration: soul-sleep is "a way to avoid having to deal with the reality of facing God when you die."
Colleen |
Pw
Registered user
Username: Pw
Post Number: 131
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 11:30 am: | |
Well, consider the fact of how you wouldn't be held accountable if you didn't face God at death. I know the Bible speaks of a judgement day at the great white throne, but I believe that is a different issue than what we would face when we do die. SDA's always stated that how could God punish someone in hell if they died thousands of years ago therefore receiving a greater punishment than someone who would end up there today. My reply is that God is the potter and we are the clay, and he is the one who determines who and when we live and die. Therefore trying to think that our way is better than God's way is putting ourselves in a type of thinking that would try to think we'd make a better God than he would, even with our limited perspective. |
Tealeaves
Registered user
Username: Tealeaves
Post Number: 166
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 1:21 pm: | |
About people who died thosands of years ago getting a "longer" sentence in Hell: I think eternity is so vastly unfathomable that a few thousands years is not even a half blink of time in comparison.
It wouldn't make enough of a difference that it is even worth mentioning. - Same with someone who "got to go to Heaven before someone else". |
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 31
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 5:06 pm: | |
We who are alive on the earth live encapsulated in time. Once we have crossed over into eternity time has no more hold on us. I agree that a couple thousand years, when measured against eternity, are like nothing at all. I'm very glad that God has it all well in hand and is in control of everything. Scripture tells me that my spirit, designed by God, is eternal. Jesus opened the way for my spirit to spend eternity at peace with God. Without his precious gift my eternal existance will be an existance within the framework of eternal destruction. Forever is forever, whether that forever started with Cain's mutiny against God, or starts with the very last soul on earth that will decide to chose contrary to God--it will still be eternal. We have a hard time fathoming these questions because we live within time rather than outside of it. God's frame of reference mentions a day being as a thousand years and a thousand years seeming to feel like a single day. That is a simple way of stating the difference between finite and infinite. No matter how well we think we have thought things out, or how well educated we may believe ourselves to be I'm sure that once we are outside of time we will realize how little information we had all along, and how immature our surmizings were.
I trust Jesus to have secured my eternal salvation and am so grateful that he gave me his grace. I'm willing to go "back to school" to learn the rest of what I will need for eternity when that first part of my life is at a close and the rest of existance opens up.
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Pw
Registered user
Username: Pw
Post Number: 132
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 10:47 am: | |
Very true. Right now we measure everything by time, our minds can not even conceive eternity and yet it exists. |
Madelia
Registered user
Username: Madelia
Post Number: 80
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 12:32 pm: | |
This topic brings to mind a Christian talk show I've been listening to on my drive home. The host this past week has been broadcasting from the state fair. He approaches passersby and asks them (after some casual chitchat) where they think they will go when they die. Everyone answers "heaven". Todd, the host, then asks why they are going to heaven, and most responses are "because God is all loving", or "He'll forgive me". Those responses remind me of the SDA response to their annihilation belief "Our God is loving, so He'll just burn everyone up in the hellfire, He wouldn't make them suffer forever".
I like what others have said: that we mortal humans just have no concept of eternity |
Dane
Registered user
Username: Dane
Post Number: 28
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 3:57 pm: | |
I have thought about the concept of eternity since I was a child. My ideas have matured but I believe that this is one of those issues that we we cannot grasp in life, locked in time as we are. But we don't need to understand it in order to believe what God says.
Also, this discussion reminds me of the many other issues that we look at here as a result of our SDA backgrounds. I think that SDA has always majored on the minors. They would have you believe that in order to be saved you need to fully understand all sorts of esoteric concepts and doctrine. This is a denial of the simple gospel.
When the thief who turned to Jesus for salvation as he hung on the cross, we have no record of a Bible Study, no SS Lessons, EGW was not mentioned, the poor guy probably had never read the review, and certainly had not heard of the 27 fundamentals. All he did was believe and it was enough. Enough for him, and everyone else.
Dane |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 118
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 4:56 pm: | |
I don't mean to argue BUT...I think the Bible does give us a little glimpse of our eternity...for those who believe the well known John 3:16 promise it is a promise of present tense:
"For God so loved the world...that whoever believes in Him...HAS eternal life" (present tense - We HAVE eternal life!).
Jesus told the woman of Samaria that the gift of God is "living water" (John 4:10). When I think of living water I think of the beautiful word picture that David gave us in Psalms 1:3 about those who find their delight (think present tense) in the Lord:
"He will be like a tree firmly planted by streams of water,
Which yields its fruit in its season
And its leaf does not wither;
And in whatever he does, he prospers."
Living water symbolizes the inner spring of joy of heart stisfaction that CONTINUALLY renews itself in the heart of the true believer! That is eternity. To choose to believe, trust and commit one's life to Jesus TODAY is to have eternal life (John 6:47).
"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being WILL FLOW rivers of living water.'" (John 7:38) My eternity is an everlasting satisfaction of life - today, tomorrow, next year...when Christ returns...FOREVER!
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 659
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 5:53 pm: | |
I love you last sentence Dd--"an everlasting satisfaction of life...!"
Dane, I agree that salvation is simple and involves only accepting Jesus as one's Savior. Many other points are interesting, but they're not essential for salvation.
That being said, if we do not die upon receiving Jesus, as did the thief, God does "grow" us in Him. Our continuing intimacy with Him depends upon our willingness to continually surrender and to learn to trust Him, and that means in all things, even our Biblical understanding. 1 Corinthians 3 reveals the fact that believers will be rewarded for their works. These rewards are NOT eternal life, as I was taught originally. Eternal life is a gift, as it was for the thief.
Our rewards, however, are not defined, but they are based upon our works as a Christ-follower: did we live by the Spirit, or did we insist on pursuing the ideas we thought were valid? On the Day of the Lord, our work will be tested. "If what [we have] built survives, [we] will receive [our] reward. If it is burned up, [we] will suffer loss; [we ourselves] will be saved, but only as one[s] escaping through the flames." (1 Corinthians 3:15)
The ongoing process of growing in truth and trust does have eternal consequences--but that process is not about our salvation. It is about our becoming who God designed us to be and growing in our trust and obedience to Him.
Colleen |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 162
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 4:06 pm: | |
THE OTHER SIDE: What a wonderful way to explain it!
A sick man turned to his doctor, as he was preparing to leave the examination room and said, "Doctor, I am afraid to die. Tell me what lies on the other side."
Very quietly, the doctor said, "I don't know."
"You don't know? You, a Christian man, do not know what is one the other side?"
The doctor was holding the handle of the door; on the other side came a sound of scratching and whining, and as he opened the door, a dog sprang into the room and leaped on him with an eager show of gladness.
Turning to the patient, the doctor said, "Did you notice my dog? He's never been in this room before. He didn't know what was inside. He knew nothing except that his master was here, and when the door opened, he sprang in without fear. I know little of what is on the other side of death, but I do know one thing...I know my Master is there and that is enough."
(Posted especially for Flyinglady, Diana, who loves dogs :-).
Dennis J. Fischer
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Dane
Registered user
Username: Dane
Post Number: 30
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 5:19 pm: | |
Dd,
I don't think we are in disagreement here. I was refering to understanding eternity as a space-time concept. In your post you appear to be looking at it from a spiritual concept. We are just talking about the same term from different angles.
Colleen,
I agree completely that the Christian should continue to grow throughout life, long or short. The idea I had in mind, but did not explain well was that groups like SDA make everything a legal obligation and a part of salvation.
Dennis,
What a great analogy,
Grace to all,
Dane |
Cindy
Registered user
Username: Cindy
Post Number: 651
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 9:06 am: | |
Dennis, I love that dog story/illustration, too!
cindy |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 538
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 9:16 pm: | |
Dennis,
Thank you for the dog story. I am sitting here laughing. My sister is home, so I am no longer dog sitting. When I was over there this evening, Binky, the female was all over me wanting attention.
You are the first one to whom I wrote about EGW and other topics when I first discovered about EGW and her plagiarism. I saved the e-mail you wrote to me and re read them every so often.
I have been having trouble with my computer so I have not been on line for 2 days. I miss it when I cannot read what everyone has to say here on the FAF.
As for the subject of eternity. I have no concept of it. It is beyond my understanding. But I am of the mind it is not how much I know, but WHO I know and I am getting to know Jesus better every day. He is the one that is important to know.
Oh, I like the analogy of the dog story.
God is truly awesome.
Diana |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 671
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 2:06 pm: | |
Thanks for the dog analogy, Dennis. As Richard said after reading it, To be afraid of the other side (eternity) is to be afraid of the Master--or not to know Him.
Colleen |
Another_carol
Registered user
Username: Another_carol
Post Number: 258
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 7:18 pm: | |
Jesus says to me: 2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
That is all I need and I am leaving the details to Him, Carol |
