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Dd
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Username: Dd

Post Number: 47
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 6:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Okay everyone...I am about to embark on explaining my views on why EGW/SDA is no longer for me to one of my old college friends. This is my first time to brave the replies I know well (I gave them myself over the years!). A while back on this forum (I just started reading in May) someone said something about responding to SDA common argument/reponse of "That's throwing the baby out with the bath water!"

That was said to me by my friend but I don't get it (remember I'm blond! :-) )!! What does it mean to throw a baby out with the bathwater? Something else that was said to me was: "When God gave us the decalog (which no Christian will say was done away with), He just reminded us of Sabbath. Is it a sin to ignore Sabbath? If no, then is it a sin to covet? If so, what is the difference?"

First of all - what is the decalog? I know these questions are difficult to answer because I remember saying the same thing. It was not until I realized that the sin of ignoring Sabbath is not resting in Jesus on a daily basis that it all became clear. These are things, though, that I could not be told, so how do I tell someone else? Please pray for me that God will lead my conversations to bring to my friend a pin-prick of Light so that the rest will fall into place with the power of the Holy Spirit.
Ladylittle
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Username: Ladylittle

Post Number: 32
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 6:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Baby out with the bathwater" is an old saying from when people took baths only once a week, starting with the oldest. Each person used the water left from the one before. By the time it got to the baby the water was so dirty that, theoretically at least, you could throw the baby out with the bathwater because you couldn't see where the baby was!

It basically means don't throw out the good with the bad.

The decalogue is another word for 'the ten commandments'.

Mary
Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 125
Registered: 4-2000
Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 10:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dd,

It should be no surprise to find a ceremonial law in the very center of the Decalogue (Ten Commandments). Hundreds of moral, civil, and ceremonial laws are all mixed together throughout the Pentateuch (first five books of the Bible). The weekly Sabbath is clearly identified as one of the ceremonial or festal observances (see Lev. 23).

On the other hand, a moral law is in effect 24/7--every nano-second of time. A moral law is always binding--not just once a week.

Dennis J. Fischer
Dd
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Username: Dd

Post Number: 49
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 5:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Mary and Dennis,

I figured from the way it was used in the sentence that it meant 10 Commandments because the rest of the question is very "typical". Dennis, I appreciate your short reply. I hope you don't mind if I use it...I can see where pages can be filled trying to explain where I stand. You have said it very neatly but clearly (and Biblically, I might add).
Cindy
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Username: Cindy

Post Number: 617
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 6:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis, what great insight on a "moral" law! ("in effect 24/7--every nono-second of time"..."always binding--not just once a week".)

Seems simple to comprehend now, doesn't it? I am so grateful to have Jesus' Rest every day!

I just noticed on my computer weather screen that "sundown" is 8:41 tonight. I can't imagine going back to that old mindset of "getting ready" for Sabbath...trying to "keep" a DAY "holy".

It just doesn't make sense separating your life into "secular" and "sacred" times. Jesus gives us His Holy Spirit to be with us at all times!

grace always,
cindy
Pheeki
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Username: Pheeki

Post Number: 377
Registered: 1-2003
Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 7:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Has anyone here read the Left Behind series? My daughter will be (praise God) attending a non-denominational school this year and on her required reading list is Left Behind for Kids...this makes me uncomfortable as it is a work of fiction (like Ellen) and one person's interpretation of end time events...and I don't want her scared for the end times becuase Jesus has it under control...

I hate to complain to the new school but...has anyone an opinion on these books?
Dd
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Username: Dd

Post Number: 50
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 8:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cindy,
LOVE your thought "It just doesn't make sense separating your life into "secular" and "sacred" times." AMEN!

Now I understand why, as a SDA, I could never feel comfortable talking about my love for God to even a fellow SDA! It is a seperation! How horribly sad to only feel His freeing love once a week (if even then...)!
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 409
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 10:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pheeki, I think it depends upon how the books are presented. I have never heard them as presented as anything but a fictional spin on one possible end-time scenario. In that respect, fiction is fiction. On the other hand, if they play them as SDAs do the EGW books, I'd talk to them. There are a lot of fiction thrillers that weave far less God-oriented tales than left behind. To me, and I don't personally see the evil since they are defined as FICTION (unlike EGW, which is billed as "of God"), it's no different than other fictional series, but with a Christian spin. I know I may be in the minority since it seems a lot of people have villified the book series because they don't agree with its theological premise, but it's better than harry potter and has less mysticism. Reading is reading. Perhaps you can read them with her and use it to study scripture so she can see where fiction has taken away from what we know according to the Bible.

As I said, I don't think they're in the same category as EGW because she is considered as good as scripture and no one would place these books in that category. That's my opinion and what I would do if it were my child.
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 488
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 10:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis, your explanation is really good--Sabbath had a time limit!

I had someone (a non-SDA who is witnessing to 3 SDA families) ask me about the Sabbath observance given with the manna. I'd never really looked at that because it all made sense to me after I understood the New Covenant, but this is what I found.

God gave Israel the manna one month after leaving Egypt. (This fact was explained and cross-referenced in the study notes of the NIV Study Bible.) God gave the 10 commandments three months after leaving Egypt. (Study notes again.)

When God gave the manna (Exodus 16), He said through Moses (v. 23), "This is what the Lord commanded: 'Tomorrow is to be a day or rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning."

Again in verse 29-30 God said, "Bear in mind that the Lord has given you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out." So the people rested on the seventh day.

Here's what I realized: God gave the first Sabbath command in the Bible--the shadow of rest in the finished work of Christ--along with the manna, the shadow of the Bread of Life--Christ Himself. Before He gave the law, He gave them the symbols of God's finished work for them along with the promise of their eternal life.

Two months later, it made sense to them that the Sabbath was put into the center of the decalogue as the symbol of their covenant. They already knew about the Sabbath and the command to rest, and it was intimately entwined with partaking of the Bread of Life. For the next forty years Israel gathered manna six days a week and ate, literally, the shadow of the true Bread of Life, and for the rest of their history they rested in the shadow of Christ's finished work.

Whoa!

Colleen
Thomas1
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Username: Thomas1

Post Number: 129
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 11:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I received a delightful publication today from the VOP, called Getting in Touch. As they asked for comments on "why", I sent the following

Mike Jones
Voice of Prophecy

July 30, 2004


Sir,

I read with interest your Getting in Touch newsletter, which I received yesterday. I am not ìoldî but I am old enough to remember H.M.S. Richards and his powerful voice and strong preaching style. I heard him preach in person, many times, and as a small boy, met him and had dinner with him and the ìon airî staff of Voice of Prophecy when they came to our small Ohio church in the 50ís. He was a fine man and so dedicated to his church.

I am saddened that whoever sent you my name and address, feels that I am not active in the church. I am very active. Not as an Adventist, yet active non the less.

In reading your letter, I was impressed with your approach. The persons you featured stressed either a falling away from the church followed by a coming back to where they felt ìhomeî, or personal reasons such as intolerance which caused them to leave, again followed by ìcoming homeî feelings that led them back. I understand that the Adventist church has a large problem with membership exodus in the U.S. I was surprised to read recently that the membership numbers now are quoted as less than they were in the U.S. when I was a boy. As one who was raised in the Adventist church, this is sad. My father and mother died as loyal members, believing in your doctrines and your prophet. I love and respect them so much.

For hundreds of us, perhaps thousands of us, the reason for leaving had nothing to do with personal problems. When I considered rejoining the church, I wanted to do what God wanted me to do. It was then that I realized that with all of the schooling and training that I had received in the Adventist movement, I did not know how to be saved. I have always believed that the Bible is the only inspired written word of God. As a child I was taught that we were the people of the Bible and that our doctrines were taken only from the Bible. So to the Bible I went. Thank God, I did not filter it through the ìholyî writings of the church. I found the Gospel like Luther found the gospel. Like him, I would not consider the writings of the church fathers (or in your case the church mother) as equal, authoritative, or the only explanation to be used in reading the Bible. I read the Bible and the Bible alone, with only the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I read it completely and in context. Not once but many times. The more I read the more I failed to find the doctrines which had been so definite in my past. Then is when I realized that I could not go back to a church whoís doctrinal structure was taken from sources other than scripture. The Bible is not meant to be read ìLine on line, line on line. Hear a little, there a littleî, but as it is written, in context with the Spirit to lead and interpret.

Since I have gone on into Christianity, I have been asked several times by Adventists about my decision. Without fail, they have all asked the same questions, usually in the same order. 1. How could you give up Sister White? 2. How could you give up the Sabbath? And 3. How could you give up the health message? Never once by them or in your publication have I ever been asked about the only thing that matters. Jesus. In fact in your letter His name is only referred to once, in passing. Yet Paul in his letter to the Colossians calls all of these things Shadows and points only to the reality of the Son. That, my friends saddens me the most.

Since leaving Adventism, I have discovered the finished, saving, assuring work of the Cross. The liberating freedom of the Easter morning empty tomb, and the power of a life lived in total relationship with Jesus Christ. He is the ìTruthî, not a day or a prophet or a diet.

So no, thank you, I will continue to walk with Jesus. And I will not be back. I will continue, however, to pray that you and the thousands of sincere Adventists will find what I have found. The Way, the Truth, and the Life. Life that begins today and never ends in death. The life that is given only through faith and the Grace of God, as a free gift to all who believe

Thom Francis
__________________________________________________
Jesus will set you free.
If you ASK Him.
John 3:16

Praisegod
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Username: Praisegod

Post Number: 99
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 11:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Beautiful letter, Thomas. Kind, loving, yet giving them the reality of having learned the gospel as a relationship with Jesus.

My prayer is that someone at these various ministries is touched by letters or e-mails such as yours and others of us who have written. At least we're planting the seeds for the Holy Spirit to water.

Praise God...
Freeatlast
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Username: Freeatlast

Post Number: 205
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 11:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well said, Thom, well said.
Madelia
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Username: Madelia

Post Number: 66
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 12:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thomas,
You did an excellent job!
Dd
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Username: Dd

Post Number: 52
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 1:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thomas,
Thank you SO much for sharing your inspired letter. It was beautifully done and shows great evidence of your heart condition. God will bless your efforts!

Colleen,
I didn't even tell you that my friend brought up the "Sabbath at Creation" argument yet the Holy Spirit laid it on your heart! What a wonderful Helper we have! I spent a great deal of time, this morning, studying the very things you mentioned but received a "whoa moment" when you mentioned God's gift of the Bread of Life before He gave the Law!

I LOVE these times that God gives us such a huge boost in our days. I am blessed by this forum!
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 341
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 1:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis,
Thank you for putting so succintly the relationship of the TC to us humans. The Civil Law is for us to keep 24/7.

Thomas,
That is a beautiful letter that you wrote. No emotion, just the facts from the Bible. As Praise God said, at least we are planting seeds for the Holy Spirit to water.
God is awesome.
Diana
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 493
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 3:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thomas, what a beautiful and pointed letter. Thank you for sharing it with all of us!

Colleen
Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 126
Registered: 4-2000
Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 5:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thomas,

I can see the imprint of the Holy Spirit in those lines. I will share it with others. What a powerful testimony exalting our Savior and Substitute, Jesus Christ!

Colleen,

Excellent research on the manna, a shadow of the Bread of Life. Also, it being "intimately entwined" with the weekly Sabbath, a shadow of the True Sabbath Rest.

Dennis J. Fischer
Cindy
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Username: Cindy

Post Number: 620
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 6:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thomas, thanks for sharing your letter; it is inspiring... With a humble boldness you show your focus on Jesus--Jesus as being sufficient in your life.
grace always,
cindy
Cindy
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Username: Cindy

Post Number: 626
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 1:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen, Thanks for your reminder on the first command to keep the Sabbath--"manna"-- representing the Bread of Life, Jesus Christ. Jesus, Who is our True Sabbath Rest!

This subject and particular Scripture passage was the last conversation I had with my brother over two years ago, just a few weeks before he died of a sudden brain hemorrhage at 47 yrs old. We had started discussions on why I no longer believed in Adventisms' core doctrine of Saturday 7th-day holiness anymore...

He called me one day and said he was studying more into some areas I'd brought up and was surprised that Exodus 16 was in fact the first command to rest on the 7th day. He just assumed, (like most Adventists, that Adam & Eve were commanded to "rest" in the Garden of Eden... (from what?...didn't they have unrestricted access to commune every day with God?).

Anyways, two weeks later my brother was dead. I've often wondered what thoughts he had in those in those intervening days. I'm fairly certain he was being led by the Holy Spirit to focus on the Truth as it really is in Jesus...

grace always,
cindy
Leigh
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Username: Leigh

Post Number: 98
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 2:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I posted something on this forum several months ago about the story of the Israelites and the Manna. I thought I might share it again since there are several new posters, (by the way, Welcome!!)

One morning last spring, I woke up and in that "just waking up/ dream state" and heard "read John 6." It seemed so real. I went about my usual routine, checking e-mail, coffee, and still had that thought of "read john 6". So I read John 6.
I homeschool my children and we had been using a great Bible curriculum. For our Bible class, I don't have any partiuclar plan. We just go as far as we want per day and I usually don't read ahead so sometimes I didn't know exactly what was to be the topic of this particular day's lesson( this is something I need to work on!!). John 6 first starts out with feeding the 5000. THEN:

"Then Jesus said to them, "most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
Then they said to Him, "lord, give us this bread always."
And Jesus said to them, 'I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE. HE WHO COMES TO ME SHALL NEVER HUNGER, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN ME SHALL NEVER THIRST." John 6:32-35

As I started reading, my jaw dropped. The topic that day for study and discussion was the Israelites receiving the manna. As I said before in the first post about this, the manna story had always been taught as a Sabbath story. I never saw the connection between manna and Christ. The Lord was showing me THE TRUE BREAD OF LIFE!! I had the exact reference to go to in the New Testament to show my children what the manna represented. I know this is the second time I posted this story, but it was such a powerful moment for me.

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