| Author | Message | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 304 Registered: 7-2003 |
Welcome Frost! Gald to have you here. One comment on the argument about Koine Greek not using punctuation.......there's a very simple reason that Koine Greek didn't use punctuation.......it didn't need it. In Greek the order of words is not terribly important because the form of the word determines it's use, meaning, and what it modifies. Looking at the Greek sentence construction and word forms in Luke 23:43 destroys the SDA argument on this text. There is a reason that ALL respected English translations put a comma after "you" and before "today", because the construction of the Greek sentence indicates it. Also to do otherwise would be to translate Jesus' well used phrase "amen lego soi" in a way that is different than it is used anywhere else. "amen lego soi" does not need a "semeron" (today) to modifiy it. Rather "semeron" modifies the following action (being with Christ in Paradise). I have long suspected that those SDA pastors who have taken Greek know something is very wrong with the SDA eisegesis of this text, but are too tied to the SDA doctrine to speak up. That particular argument just doesn't hold up to serious scruitiny. Chris | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 82 Registered: 2-2003 |
Chris,I never thought about that before. Even if I had it probably wouldn't have made sense to me before this year. My daughter is taking latin grammar at a classical christian tutorial this year and I'm learning a little myself here and there. I'm guessing that Latin and Greek are similar in that the endings of the words, not the order, tell you what the translation is. With latin, the words can be in almost any order because the endings give you tense, case, etc. Thanks, Chris! | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 167 Registered: 5-2002 |
After coming out of the SDA cult, I too struggled with the state of the dead. The portion of Scripture that finally put the nail in the coffin that only my body will be buried in, and not my spirit, was where Paul talks about it being better to depart and "be with Christ". Why in the world would Paul desire to depart his work on behalf of Jesus in order to go sleep in the dirt? Clearly, it means to me that where he desired to be was somewhere better than this life. How can one "be with Christ" when one is "sleeping with the fathers"? Something dramatic changed at the cross, my friends. In Christ, we have life eternal. Period. Suspended animation 6 feet underground for possibly thousands of years is hardly better than the Christian walk in this life, no matter how difficult it may be in the flesh. That did it for me. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 215 Registered: 12-2003 |
Me too, Freeatlast. Those two passages of Paul's, one in 2 Cor. 5 and the other in Phil. 1 are the statements that really convinced me. How could sleep, even if unconscious, be better than being with and in Christ? How is that eternal LIFE? I also agree that something dramatic changed at the cross. It's so wonderful to know that we can trust Jesus, and we'll be with him for eternity! Colleen | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 84 Registered: 10-2001 |
I may be a little slow, but this just occurred to me a couple of weeks ago. Jesus told Mary not to touch Him that He hadn't ascended yet, then later he told Thomas to touch Him.....Obviously He ascended somewhere in between. As far as Paradise, that explains it. Paradise being Abraham's bosom and tho holding place for saints, Jesus WAS with the theif in Paradise that day because they weren't released to heaven until after the ascension when the blood was applied to the mercy seat! I had wondered why He didn't say "You will be with me in My Father's house or heaven." So, Jesus did tell the truth and I think used the term Paradise to prove that He indeed took the blood to the mercy seat at His ascension since Hebrews is rather vague about it. Did all that make sense? | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 308 Registered: 7-2003 |
Sabra, a more literal of translation of what Jesus said to Mary is: Jesus said* to her, ``Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, `I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.' '' John 20:17 (NASB) I believe the meaning here is that she needn't cling to Him because His ascension is a ways off yet (40 days). I can picture Mary seeing Jesus, then grabbing Him and desperately clingining to Him so that He couldn't leave her. On a side note, this is sometimes used to "prove" that Jesus couldn't have possibly been in Paradise with the Thief immediately after the cross. however, this approach betrays a lack of understanding of body and spirit. Indeed, Christ did not bodily ascend to the Father in His glorified resurrection body until 40 days after His resurrection, but during the time his body was in the grave His Spirit was indeed with the Father (Luke 23:46). If Jesus' own statement in Luke 23 is not enough we should be able to deduce this from reason as well. Jesus is God. God is spirit. God cannot die. Therefore only Jesus' body was sleeping in the grave. His Spirit was alive and with the Father just as He said it was. Jesus' experience prefigures our own. When we die our body sleeps in the grave, but our spirit is with the Lord, then one day God will bring us with Him and reunite our spirit with our glorified body. (1 Thess. 4:13-18, 2 Cor. 5:1-11, Phil. 1:20-24). Jesus really was the "first fruits" from the dead and through his example and promise, we can know that we who are in Him will "never die" (John 11:25-26). Chris | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 65 Registered: 4-2000 |
Chris, Those are excellent thoughts in reference to the body and the soul. Jesus was never the Second Noah, the Second Moses, or the Second Joshua. He is, however, the SECOND ADAM. Adam and Eve are the only Bible characters that had both a pre-Fall and post-Fall nature. Without understanding man's dualistic nature, right from the Creator's hand, the rest of Scripture becomes darkened with confusion, meaninglessness, and an outright puzzlement. The SDA theory of death distorts both Christology and soteriology. By the way, we were really "messed up" theologically in Adventism. Having to relearn almost everything is not easy, but praise God we found an anchor in the new covenant teachings of Jesus Christ. Furthermore, it is exciting to see how the Bible fits neatly together like a completed puzzle when one utilizes accepted principles of hermeneutics. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 85 Registered: 10-2001 |
Chris, You realize you just messed up my whole revelation don't you? LOL!! I'll have to think about it a while. Great points Chris and Dennis. Sabra | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 30 Registered: 3-2004 |
When my Mom died I was very comfortable with how the SDAs teach about death. The hospice chaplain who helped care for her and us before she died was so kind. At her memorial service he said something to me about her being in heaven. My reply was thank you for your kind words, but we do not believe the same. He asked my brother if all the rest of the family believed as I did. I am glad the state of the dead is not a salvation requirement. It is a complex subject. Understanding it in heaven will be fine with me. And whatever God's decision is regarding my Mom, I know I will accept. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 309 Registered: 7-2003 |
I would be interested in your responses. I'm actually not as dogmatic about soul-sleep as I might sound. In terms of the Christian faith, I would consider belief in a literal bodily resurrection and belief in a literal bodily return of Christ to be essentials. I would consider an understanding of the intermediate state to be a non-essential (something we can debate vigorously without dividng over). Having said this, I as curious as to why this is such a hot button topic for SDAs and Formers. This seems to be one of two doctrines to hang on the longest after leaving Adventism (the other being the Sabbath). I have a very good friend who left Adventism shortly after me. He no longer believes in the Sabbath keeping for Christians or any of the other distinctive SDA doctrines, but he shys away from the topic of soul-sleep and usually says something like, "Well, we don't really know about that one". He's stated before that the idea of his loved ones not being uncounscious at death bothers him. He's stated that it doesn't seem right for them to be with Jesus all the while knowing their family members are still suffering on earth (I've heard this from a lot of SDAs). 1)Why do you think this particualr concern is so deeply embedded in the SDA psyche? I've never heard any other Christian worry that their relatives who have gone to be with the Lord might be unhappy. 2) Why do you think SDAs and/or formers are often so attached to this particular doctrine? | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 304 Registered: 7-2003 |
I can address a little of what B has said, but I'm sure that is no way comprehensive. It seems he thinks that to believe in conscious existence means you have to think people who have died are out there "watching" you and he thinks it would be horrible for them to watch your mistakes as well as the idea they are watching what you do. He also attaches a lot of spiritualist theology with it rather than the simple belief people are with Christ, whatever that means. He also confuses being with Christ to receiving eternal reward. He quotes passages about eternal rewards and thinks that saying you are with Christ somehow means you have been through the judgement and received eternal rewards. Looking outside in, it is tangled with the whole view of not knowing you are saved. He seems to think that since it is not possible to "know" for sure you are saved until judgement, that somehow at the judgement seat of Christ people can still lose their salvation and it's not fair to let them experience heaven, then send them to burn up...his view. It would seem he has to get a correct understanding of salvation and the judgements at the end before he can comprehend a person "being with the Lord" and straightening out all of those other things. At least, that's how I see his perspective. Also, didn't EGW say those would be Satan's two greatest areas of deception among "babylon"? I think he is still psychologically trying to distinguish himself from non-SDAs even if he conceeds they "might" be Christians. And some of it might be habit. He is adamant any view but his is non-Biblical. If you are sincerely trying to be true to scripture, it's a hard pill to accept the Bible might say something different.... Those are my observations as an outsider.... And B is not even entertaining the possibility adventism is in error. Those are just things he has said in past conversations because I have asked him why it is such a hot issue when I think their treatment of the gospel is far more important. He thinks it is vitally important to believe "the right thing". | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 169 Registered: 5-2002 |
Chris, based on my understanding of SDA beliefs, there are three primary reasons this is such a "hot button". Have any of you other formers heard of these? 1. Beleiving that we are immortal takes away the the incentive to obey God because He no longer holds the "trump" card of justice over us - anihilation. However, this teaching seems willingly ignorant to the horror of eternal punishment, which is certainly a fate worse than anihilation. It also ignores the core of the gospel message - that we love Christ (and therefore desire to obey Him) because He first loved us. It is not to avoid His wrath, that is something He has already given us as a free gift in Christ. 2. Believing that our spirit lives on leaves one vulnerable to "the deception soon to be propagated by the three-fold union of Catholicism, apostate Protestantism, and Spiritualism" (for examplle: Demons impersonating departed spirits might be able to trick us into worshipping on Sunday.) 3. Ellen White said it is that way. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 218 Registered: 12-2003 |
I agree with the statements above. My own fixation on the doctrine as an Adventist is hard to explain or even to understand myself. My great concern about it as a former has stemmed from the deep, hard-to-explain attachment I had to it. Here's what I think it's related to: 1. I was taught that soul-sleep was as important a doctrine as the Sabbath. I wasn't taught it in those words, but the vigor behind its teaching was that to believe otherwise was to choose to accept spiritualism, and everyone knew that was devil worship! Believing in an eternal soul, in my Adventist thinking, was tantamount to abandoing God and accepting the devil's great deception. 2. Probably because of the connection of a spirit's going to God with "spiritism", belief in soul sleep had A LOT of pride and arrogance connected with it. It made me feel almost as spiritually superior as did the Sabbath. 3. Now I'm coming to believe that soul sleep as Adventists understand it may be as tainted by a true spirit of deception as is the belief in holding onto Sabbath. Satan, I believe, counterfeits everything true. The fact that the "state of the dead" is so important to Adventists suggests to me that there is a spiritual component to the belief that we really cannot explain logically. 4. Because ther Bible is unclear about the specifics of what happens after death, none of us can be too dogmatic about it. For me, however, I've had to let go of the absolute belief in a sleeping soul--a person who essentially is non-existent for an indeterminate time period--in favor of believing Jesus keeps my soul in him--whatever that means, but according to Paul it's desirable!--and accept that the Bible teaches that in Christ we will never die. Nothing, not even death, can separate us from Christ's love. It's sort-of hard to explain and understand--but I'm convinced ADventist's tie to the doctrine is a spiritual bondage--not because we KNOW what happens exactly, but because the belief in soul sleep as Adventists teach it actually supports a heretical belief in an incomplete atonement and a false view of the nature of Christ. Colleen | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 49 Registered: 3-2004 |
For me as an Adventist, soul sleep for loved ones bound for heaven was never a problem. And even before I realized that God was processing me out of the church I had my doubts because of being "absent from the body and present with the Lord." So I really was quite content to not be terribly concerned. The real issue for me is where the lost ones go. I'm having a great struggle about giving up annihilation beliefs. I wouldn't even be too concerned about that, knowing that God is going to do what's best, except that in my area of the country it's pretty much in all the Statement of Beliefs for churches. Since I'm looking for a church home, I better figure out what I really believe on the topic. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 219 Registered: 12-2003 |
Praisegod, Many cburches state eternal punishment as a doctrine, but they may allow you to become a member of the congregation without subscribing to it. When we joined our church, eternal hell was the one doctrine we hadn't come to terms with. After the membership class at which the pastor explained the history of the Evngelical Free Church as well as its doctrines, we went up to him and said, "We just have one problem." He, knowing our background, immediately replied, "Hell?" We admitted it was so, and he said, "Knowing your background, that will not stand in your way of membership. If you had never been involved in Christianity and just resisted the idea of hell as you learned about God, that would be different. " We became members, and completely on our own and with time and study, we began to see that the Bible really does support the idea of an eternal hell. Again, nothing is specifically explained in the Bible; I understand your uncertainty, Praisegod. I'm just saying this by way of encouragement. Don't resist becoming part of a church because of the doctrine of hell. I suspect that many pastors would understand your situation and questions and would welcome you anyway. And yes, do study the issue and ask God to help you understand what he wants you to know. He will guide you! Colleen | ||
| Qweary Registered user Username: Qweary Post Number: 3 Registered: 3-2004 |
Am glad that the subject of final destinations is nota Salvation Requisite!! However, It is hard to think of a loving God/Father having an eternally burning hell for eternity. Maybe I'm still steeped in SDA-ism in that area, but I read that the wicked will be ashes (or is that EGW). God will make ALL things new. A howling eternal flame doesn't coincide with my picture of an ALL-loving God. That would be scary, and there will be no fear. Qweary | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 66 Registered: 4-2000 |
Colleen, My wife and I had a similar experience as yours. However, the senior pastor assured and/or warned us that we will hear it preached and taught. As Providence would have it, after becoming Evangelical Free members, our continued study soon confirmed the biblical view of death and the afterlife. ANNIHILATIONISM: A Brief History "Perhaps the best way to study the theory of conditional immortality or annihilationism is to give a brief overview of its history...The theory of annihilationism is which the wicked pass into nonexistence either at death or the resurrection was first advocated by Arnobius, a 4th-century "Christian" apologist, according to standard reference works such as Baker's Dictionary of Theology (p. 184). Before his baptism, Arnobius wrote seven books which presented his "Apology of Christianity" to the Gentiles. They were probably written around A.D. 303, and it is these books which have been preserved for posterity. As we read Arnobius' seven books in Vol. 19 of the Anti-Nicene Christian Library: Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325, we had to agree with the historian Phillip Schaff's assessment of Arnobius' work. Schaff points out that it is 'Meager and unsatisfactory. Arnobius seems as ignorant about the Bible as Minucius Felix. He never quotes the Old Testament, and the New Testament only once. He knows nothing of the history of the Jews and the Mosaic worship, and confounds the Pharisees and Sadducees.' Given Arnobius' ignorance of the Bible, and that these works were written before he had the opportunity of even becoming a member of the Christian Church, it is no wonder that Arnobius viewed man in terms of the philosophy of materialism instead of through the Scriptures. Phillip Schaff points out: 'As to man, Arnobius...denies his immortality. The soul outlives the body but depends solely on God for the gift of eternal duration. The wicked go to the fire of Gehenna, and will ultimately be consumed or annihilated.' Schaff's sober assessment of the low quality of Arnobius' work is in sharp contrast to Froom who calls him "one of the bright anti-Nicene lights." The contrast between Froom's view of church history and that of professional historians is also highlighted in that the historians call Arnobius the first propagator of annihilationism, while Froom calls him "the last Anti-Nicene Conditionalist Spokesman." After Arnobius, no significant church father took up the doctrine of annihilationism. The position of Tertullian, Hippolytus, Cyprian, Ambrose, Chrysostum, Jerome, Augustine, etc., was clearly in favor of the doctrine of a conscious afterlife and eternal punishment. Both conditionalism and Universalism were formally condemned as heresy as early as the Second Council of Constantinople in A.D. 553 (see: The Seven Ecumenical Councils, p. 320). Even Froom is forced to admit that no Christian thinker can clearly be claimed as conditionalist until the 12th century. There were thus eight hundred years between Arnobius and the Waldenses, when the conditionalist faith was clearly viewed as heresy by the Christian Church. As the pressures of liberalism continue, we expect more neo-evangelicals moving either into Universalism or annhilationism, either of which are acceptable to those who hold a liberal theological position. This is regrettably the result of a weak view of Scripture which has been devoloping in certain evangelical circles over the last 25 years. Both the secular and religious forms of materialism view man as being explainable on material principles alone. They both deny that man has an immortal soul and that man's soul or spirit survives the death of the body. They are both guilty of reductionism in that they reduce man to his body." CREDIT: The preceding excerpts are taken from DEATH AND THE AFTERLIFE, 1984, by Dr. Robert A. Morey. The late Dr. Walter Martin said of this 315-page book, "The most comprehensive biblical study of the subject in the last half century!" Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 67 Registered: 4-2000 |
Qweary, According to the post-resurrection teaching in the New Testament, the believer now goes to heaven at death to await the coming resurrection and the eternal state. But, what of the wicked? The wicked at death descend into Hades which is a place of temporary torment while they await the coming resurrection and their eternal punishment. First, it is clear that the souls of the wicked are in torment during the intermediate state in Hades. The Apostle Peter stated this in language which could not be clearer: "Then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and TO KEEP THE UNRIGHTEOUS UNDER PUNISHMENT for the day of judgment" (2 Peter 2:9 NASB). First, Peter says that the wicked are "kept" unto the day of judgment. This word is in the present, active, infinitive form, which means that the wicked are being held captive continuously. If the wicked merely pass into nonexistence at death, there would be nothing left to be "kept" unto the day of judgment. Obviously, Peter is grammatically picturing the wicked as being guarded like prisoners in a jail until the day of final judgment. Second, Peter says that the wicked are "being tormented." This word is in the present, passive, participle form and means that the wicked are continuously being tormented as an on-going activity. If Peter wanted to teach that the wicked receive their full punishment at death by passing into nonexistence, then he would have used the aorist tense. Instead, he uses those Greek tenses which were the only ones available to him in the Greek language to express conscious, continuous torment. The grammar of the text irrefutably establishes that the wicked are in torment while they await their final day of judgment. When the day of judgment arrives, Hades will be emptied of its inhabitants, and the wicked will stand before God for their final sentence (Rev. 20:13-15). Thus, Hades is the temporary intermediate state between death and the resurrection where the wicked are in conscious torment. Hades will be emptied at the resurrection, and then the wicked will be cast into "hell" (Gehenna). While Sheol(Hebrew) and Hades(Greek) describe the temporary abode of the dead until the resurrection, Gehenna is the place of future punishment in the eternal state. In one sense hell is so terrible because it entails separation from God. This is the meaning of the biblical language of darkness used to describe the fate of the lost. As Martin Luther explains in a sermon preached in his home in 1533, those who have heard the gospel but have not believed "must lie in darkness, cut off from God's light, that is, from all comfort, in eternal torment, anguish, and sadness, so that they will nevermore see one spark of light" (Ewald M. Plass, What Luther Says, 3 vols, St. Louis: Concordia, 1959, pp. 625-27). Yet in another sense it is God's very presence that makes hell so dreadful. Although he is not present in grace and blessing, he is present in holy wrath. It is not as though the ungodly see God and His appearance as the godly will see Him, but they will feel the power of His presence, which they will not be able to bear, and yet will be forced to bear. Indeed, this chief and unbearable punishment God will inflict with His mere appearance, that is, with the revelation of His wrath.` Evangelical Christians hold that God alone is inherently immortal (1 Tim. 6:16) and that he confers immortality to all human beings. The fates of the righteous and the wicked are both eternal (Matt.25:46). The saved enjoy everlasting life; the lost consciously endure everlasting contempt. It would be most UNLOVING for God to obliterate human beings simply because they disagreed with him. Instead, He is sustaining and allowing their existence and even providing a separate place for them to live apart from Him forever. God's grace can only be appreciated to the extend of our understanding the depths of His wrath. Indeed, in the big picture, sin is a big deal to God. The stakes of living a godless life are very high. God incarnate died a substitutionary death in our behalf. As someone recently asked, "So which is it? Did He die to prove we have to keep the Law, or did He die because we have proven that we cannot?" In awe of His grace, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 33 Registered: 3-2004 |
Dennis, Thanks for your writing above. Before I decided not to rejoin the SDA church I would think, once in a while, that I might as well sin and do it WELL because in the end I would die. WOW!!! What an eye opener. I am very glad God got ahold of my heart and mind and turned me around. Thank God I am saved. Oh, I have found a church that is very God filled. Diana | ||
| Qweary Registered user Username: Qweary Post Number: 4 Registered: 3-2004 |
Am so THANKFUL for John 3:16!! Praise our Savior for His paying the price of our sin and making SURE that we HAVE SALVATION through HIS Name. No longer do we have to shiver and WONDER IF we'll "make it." Jesus PAID it ALL!! Praise to the Holy Spirit that He dwells with us and guides us constantly. Am so thankful for dear people like HMSR, D. Ford, Henry F. Brown, Walter Rea, D. Ratzlaff and Pastor Joe Ray who stirred up our minds and got us thinking and reading GOD's Word for ourselves for our "meat" instead of depending on the "red books" for the pablum. Thank you dear ones for the support and your thoughts and taking the time to open my mind even further. What a privilege we have to study and share like this. God bless you all as you help us "babe chicks" to find our way out of the shells we have been in for decades! We THANK YOU and THANK GOD for you! Qweary |
