| Author | Message | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 145 Registered: 5-2004 |
I have an SDA friend who says that that she tithes 10% as the church teaches. Last year she attended a small (100 or so members, I think) SDA church, where she tithed faithfully. They are a one-income family with a modest income. -anyway, she got the endo of the year church statement, and was suprised to find that she and her husband had tithed a full 1/3 of the total tithe the church received that year. That means there is a lot of talk and not much action in the tithe department. Do you think that is typical or some sort of anomaly? | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 23 Registered: 7-2004 |
I think it is fairly typical. And I'm not sure that the issue is with giving or the amount. I have had conversations with some very committed and conservative SDAs in their 30's and 40's who are very frustrated with the SDA church's treatment of tithe. For younger members there is almost no opportunity to have your voice heard at the GC level (look at the age distribution of delegates to GC sessions). There is very little disclosure about the actual, detailed use of funds. And there is no accountability for mis-use of funds. I am convinced from my conversations that many SDAs are voting the easiest way that they can, with their wallets. The giving goes to other places than the "tithe" box on the envelope--both inside the local church and through other institutions. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 82 Registered: 7-2004 |
My husband and I found that tithe paying (or not paying) is a means of control for church member. For several years in a row no one at the SDA church we attended wanted to be Cradle Roll leaders. Our daughter was in the class (and her little brother followed after her) so we were asked by the nominating committee for at least 4 years to lead out - which we did. After 4 years we told them we had been in the class long enough. We were not asked to do any other position for 1-2 years. A few years later the people who had been the music directors for many years moved away. For the first time they asked me to be "involved" in the music. I was told at that point that if I started paying tithe they would give me the title "Music Director". The elder that called to discuss this with me could not explain to me why it was okay to be a non-tithe paying Cradle Roll leader but not a non-tithe paying Music Director. This incident opened our eyes to see why the same people always were involved in decisions. The same people with the same power year after year. Tithe paying was their source of power. It also became evident that those who "bought" their way into the system were people who did not have any other source of power in their lives. This church is in a small town in a very small (poor) conference. The church was also very, very EGW based. I don't know if power structures in all SDA churches are based on this same tithe paying system. Any thoughts? | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 872 Registered: 11-2002 |
WOW! That sure is different than my experience at the Lutheran church I attend. I give far less than 10%. In fact, the church has come to my aid several times. And now the pastor wants me to study the books definig Christian faith and teach the kids in the fall Catachism class. I also had a call recently asking if I would commit myself to being Communion server for the next three months. What a difference! | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 51 Registered: 5-2004 |
Growing up in a pastors family, I know how crucial tithe paying is in the sda denomination. Though the black hole it goes into is beyond me. This is, irronically, how we're choosing to leave the church. My husband wasn't comfortable writing a letter. But we were advid tithe payers who didn't miss a cent... And so, we've just stopped attending. Which for 6 months now no one has called or asked a thing. But I'm sure when the records get reviewed, when our tithe shows up missing that's when we'll get visited  I praise God to leading us to Him, where we can give with no compulsion, what He impresses us to give! And in ways that we never would've been free to before. Praise God for setting us free! Jn 8:36: "If the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed" PS funny thing. I just went to look up the reference for that verse to make sure I was quoting it correctly, and typed in "free" as the search criteria...and the first verse I got was: Matt 10:8 "Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give." I've always heard the last half of the verse quoted in the SDA church as a commission to give tithes and offerings, but it looks as if it's refering more appropriately to healing people through the power of the Spirit. | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 118 Registered: 6-2004 |
Does anyone continue to tithe even though they are attending other churches now? I still practice it (not to the exact cent) but it seems to work for me. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 448 Registered: 7-2003 |
I guess my amazement is that people "know" who has given what. In most of the churches I've been in, only those preparing financial records for tax purposes actually see how much any individual has given and in one church I was in the pastor routinely told the congregation he had no idea who gave what, but I'm sure it's apparent who has the ability to give more than others, at least to some degree. In the day of automation, I would guess its quite easy to never really know who gives what unless you're trying to look up someone specifically (unlike the old days of manual bookkeeping). Just print the pages, stuff the envelopes and away they go. In fact, if we don't put our "number" on our check, it won't even be credit to our "account" (and we won't get a tax statement). So, it can really be "anonymous" in a church of 1100. We get statements quarterly for those who have to pay taxes quarterly, but never in all my years of church attendance have I ever had anyone contact me about how much or how little I was giving. one year, I did get a letter that I had not turned in my pledge card (which has a box for 0 as well), and they were trying to determine the budget for the year and would appreciate my completing it, but also stated on that card is that the amount can change or even be withdrawn at any time for any reason, it is only a good-faith estimate of the future year's giving to allow the elders to determine a budget. Of course, i realize that is different than the SDA church where money is sent elsewhere to be handed out differently. It just seems a little like money changers in the temple if what you give is used as a method of "awarding" more prestigious jobs within the church. B has tried to explain to me why it is unfair for big churches to have big budgets when pastors of small churches probably work harder and would get less, but that still has never made what adventism does look logical. Of course, I also have to remember B is not interested in the "historic" Christian faith, which he thinks is heretical. Just another one of those things I don't get.... | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 608 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dd, your experience is remarkable. It's astonishing they were so bold about stating the "manipulation by tithing" policy! I've always understood (in that vague, unstated, but subtly powerful way) that those who give are those who get the positions in the church. Those with careers which produce greater income tend to be the ones preferred for elder positions, building committees, church treasurer, etc. (I assume, though, that the "position by career" method requires the person to be giving generously.) In our church also, only one person knows how much anyone gives. The pastors do not know. It is strictly private. On a personal level, we do continue to give, although we don't use 10% as the strict guideline it used to be for us. It's in the backs of our minds as we plan the year's giving, but the church's needs have more to do with the amount we give than does a percentage. I praise God that He does bless us to be able to give! That is a remarkable sort of miracle than never ceases to astonish me. | ||
| Krista Registered user Username: Krista Post Number: 9 Registered: 8-2004 |
Where do SDA tithes really go? Bruce Burke's letter to the editor of the Little Rock, Arkansas paper, lists; "jewelry, coffee, tea, other caffeine beverages, missiles, military fighter planes, stock in the largest producers of fresh pork in the country." This is apparently from the GC Portfolio of Investments and I believe it's authentic. http://members.aol.com/Char777/tithes.html | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 146 Registered: 4-2000 |
HISTORICAL NUGGETS ON TITHING The Levites were not given territorial lands like other Israelites. They (along with the Priests) were allotted forty-eight cities in which they could earn a living. Many people have not realized that Moses gaves the Levites the means by which to earn a living without having a dependence upon tithe alone. Other than the tithe of the third and sixth years of a sabbatical cycle, the only Levites that received tithe were those who attended the service of the Tabernacle (and even then it was only that part left over from the festival use by ordinary Israelites). At other times they had to earn their own living within the cities and lands allotted them. The Levites were expected to work for their livelihood like any other normal citizen within the community of Israel. While the ordinary Israelite gave his tithe every third year to the Levites (and the destitute), look at the services he got besides the management of the Temple. Israel got teachers for their children, physicians for their ills, scribes, musicians, singers, judges, and law enforcement officers. A part of their tithe even went to support a type of social security service every third and sixth year for the destitute. This indicates that the one tithe, which was distributed differently over a seven year period, was not simply intended for religious purposes. It was something similar to our taxes that support our educational institutions, our government hospitals, our law enforcement agencies, our cultural societies, etc. When one sees the true picture of Israel's tithing system, the early Israelites didn't get too bad a deal in their payment of tithe. Today, however, the "tithe payer" normally gets no such material benefits. He receives the sole opportunity to supporting his church--and that's all he gets. What a far cry from the ancient tithing system of Israel in which all benefitted. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 84 Registered: 7-2004 |
I have found, since giving up the guilt of not giving 10% tithe, I actually give more than 10% - not each and every month but most months. Even though we went to the SDA church (that I referenced above), we only gave to local church budget or specific church programs. It bugged us that our local church had unmet needs but that they would send funds off to the conference to be used for whatever was deemed worthy by some "grand Pooh-Pah". I always felt that if pastors were "employed" by the local church members there would be a more accountability...but that's beside the point (I'd love to hear Dennis' opinion from his pastor point of view...). Anyway...my point...I have come to understand what God means when He tells us to give cheerfully. I am so grateful I have the opportunity to give. It is a great joy to give from my heart than to give from guilt or because I have to. | ||
| Sheryl Registered user Username: Sheryl Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2004 |
I believe this is my second post at this forum, so bear with me on my computer abilities. I am feeling such turmoil at times over this very issue. You see, I haven't been able to find a suitable church yet. When I went back to the SDA church in 94 after being backslidden for 18 yrs, I had remarried but hubby was agnostic. I noticed at the evangelistic meetings that had just started, I talked briefly with the pastor who showed great interest in my husband and his occupation which paid quite well. To make a long story short: hubby began attending the meetings, snuck in at first. He was eventually baptized after my rebaptism, and was treated differently than I. I am a lowly social worker who made very low wages. Our marraige was bad, and had gotten worse, during the separation the church made him a deacon after only being member for few months, and put him on the school board. He paid lot of tithe and donated to the school. I am not saying this to put anyone down, just being honest about what happened. My husband cancelled my car insurance without notifying me about it, as a result I lost my license for 3 mos, had lost job, so hubby said he would pay me for 3-4 mos until I got those back, well in order to pay me, he donated the sum to the church fund, then had the church send me a check for that amt. so he could get the tax deduction. The pastor went along with this scheme and I became disgusted by this church. I am thankful that in the past year or so, I have been able to read from God's word on the issue of tithe, and the new testament guidelines on giving. I truly want to find a body of believers and to give as God has blessed me. I harbor no hatred nor anger at the SDA church, but look back now and wonder how I stayed for so long. I did notice that the power base in the church was held by the same people for long periods of time, and positions were given to family members of these individuals. Folks with higher incomes ran the church I attended. It is unfortunate that this occurs. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 29 Registered: 7-2004 |
Welcome, Sheryl! My name is also Sheryl, I just post under "Raven". I don't meet very many people who spell their name our way. Does anyone ever call you Shirley by mistake? I've gotten that a lot, especially at banks! | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 875 Registered: 11-2002 |
Sheryl, It is good to have you on here. I am looking forward to learning from you. Yes, even I who has distanced myself as much as possible from the SDA church and its going-on know personally of dishonesty about money matters in a local SDA church. Years ago when the children were small my uncle wanted his little granddaughter to attend a local SDA school. She was a little kid at that time, second grade or so. The laws in this state are written that if a donation is given to a school and the school uses the money as scholarship money then the donation can be used as a tax right-off. The law also defines the word "scholarship". Anyway, I think by now you all know where I'm going with this. The SDA school had my uncle give them a donation for scholarship money and then they worked it out so that my uncles scholarship donation was the exact same amount as his granddaughters tuition. The next year I put my son into a local SDA school. Same state but a different cty, not the same school. My mom tried like the dickens to get the SDA school where my son went to do the same dishonest thing for her. Much to the credit of where my son went the school people would not budge. They kept telling my mom that just because the SDA's at the school down the highway were dishonest didn't mean they were going to be dishonest, too. I remember going round and round with my mom telling her she should be thankful she was dealing with honest people. She wasn't thankful, still isn't. Still is loyal to the SDA and still thinks the local folks should have altred the books so she could get my sons bill as a tax right-off as a scholarship. In my opinion what they did for my uncle was quite underhanded and dishonest. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 88 Registered: 7-2004 |
Sheryl - Welcome to a place where people understand where you've been and encourage you in your walk with God. I pray you will be as blessed as I am. God is in this place (forum). May you feel His presence in your life. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 510 Registered: 3-2004 |
Sheryl, Welcome to FAF where you will find that people here understand what you have been though to some degree or other. You will be blessed here. As Dd said above, God is in this place. I know I feel His presence here and I know you will also. You will learn as I have what an awesome God we have. Diana | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 147 Registered: 4-2000 |
A hearty FAF welcome, Sheryl! | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 148 Registered: 4-2000 |
Dd, Being that we believe in the "priesthood of all believers," a congregational church is ideal. My church, an Evangelical Free Church, is part of a denomination. It's 1,250 plus churches are all congregational in government. Our Elder Board (currently 8 members) completely runs our local church. Our Elders can only serve for a two-year term. They can be elected again after a two-year break in service. Our denominational affiliation is beneficial in matters of doctrinal purity, ministerial retirement plan, humanitarian relief fund, seminary and university supervision, youth camps, clergy licensing and discipline, employment center, church plant expertise, legal counsel, etc. Our church has amenities and resources through its denominational affiliation that it could not afford on its own. I definitely prefer the laity to control the local church. The churches in our denomination are basically an association of churches--an official affiliation. It is akin, in the business world, of being a franchise member. Tithing is not a doctrine in our church (smile). Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 120 Registered: 6-2004 |
I find that many churches (SDA and others) seem to focus more on the fact that tithes are tax deductible benefit more than how the funds are to be used for various ministries. Doesn't really reflect on giving to God with a cheerful heart but more on the lines on what the giver can get out of it. Just my observation...am I wrong here? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 614 Registered: 12-2003 |
I can't speak about other churches, but I know that at ours, tax deductions are never mentioned. We do receive receitps for our donations at the end of the year, but the tax benefits are never mentioned. Yes, many tax-deductible organizations including independent ministries often do remind people of the tax deductions. I'm with you, Pw--it seems those reminders should not be necessary for giving in grace. Another thing I'm coming to believe more and more is that God provides for what He wills. As I often heard it said in the Adventist church (always in conjunction with urging [or guilting] us to give more offerings), God doesn't need our money. It's true; He doesn't. But He does bless us in the body of Christ to be able to support others whom He calls to His work. Richard and I have found that God blesses us enough to make it possible for us to keep giving and supporting others. In a way, the giving phenomenon reminds me of the intercessory prayer pheonomenon; God asks us to do it, and while He doesn't need our money or our prayers to accomplish his will in another person's life, still somehow He does accomplish His will through our obedience to intercede and to give as He convicts us. It all seems quite remarkable and miraculous to me. It is such a privilege to belong to His family! Colleen |
