| Author | Message | ||
| Busymom Registered user Username: Busymom Post Number: 7 Registered: 4-2004 |
I am struggling with as many of you have as to why I was in the Adventist church for so long. I am not sure that I can assume that this was God's perfect timing. It is quite possible that I was being called out sooner and didn't listen to God's voice. I compare it to someone who is a smoker, if they develop lung cancer, is that God's will? I don't think God wants any of us to be sick. I think God can use our experiences for good, but I want to be sure I am listening. If any of you can recommend a book on prayer or listening to God, please let me know. My understanding is that prayer and listening can improve with practice and a correct attitude? | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 594 Registered: 7-2000 |
absolutely both improve with practice and attitude. And that adds up to it takes time. We are to be literally continually in an attitude of prayer in our daily lives. That means that at any moment we can be doing whatever and praying at the same time. BUT, it is imperative that we also take the time to often get alone with God, block out the distractions, take our thoughts captive, and concentrate on Him. One thing I have learned about really getting into this kind of prayer is that we often approach it totally backwards. We immediately launch into our requests, needs, problems, and concerns. But that isn't what Christ taught in the Lord's prayer. Studying that is a good place to start. Notice that Christ begins with worship (hallowed be your name). Then He invites the Lord to release His kingdom into life here (thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth) that immediately turns your thoughts away from your ideas to choose to be open to His thoughts. Then He asks for the Lords guidance (give us this day our daily bread....the Word of God). Then he asks for forgiveness including a choice to forgive those who have wronged us. Then ask for the grace to cope. And ends with acknowledging once more that God is greater than all. Personally I am finding that beginning the prayer with worship is just hugely important. When we begin with that acknowledgement of God's character, with the reminder that it is all about building His kingdom, it puts lots of stuff into perspective. It puts us in a place of being open to listen, open to see things through His eyes. | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 318 Registered: 1-2003 |
I think the SDA church serves a purpose in a really round about way. The Law is what drives us to Christ and they are all about law...slapping people around with it at will...the problem is...it becomes a god for some and there is a malfunction... You were led there so they you can appreciate GRACE all the more. | ||
| Busymom Registered user Username: Busymom Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2004 |
Thank you Lydell for your answer, what you wrote makes sense. When I am free from distractions i.e. kids being awake and I pray I am peaceful afterwards, I haven't reached the point yet when I am praying during the day and there are lots of distractions going on that I feel peaceful after praying. Pheeki, you are absolutely right I am afraid I am going to embarass myself at the new church I have been attending, because the idea of God's grace without any works on my part makes me cry. The only thing I am nervous about at the new church is the idea of being "slain in the spirit". I am comfortable with tongues it is not practiced in a disruptive way at this church it is practiced in a biblical manner. Is it biblical to be slain in the spirit? I haven't seen it happen yet, but my friend who attends the midweek prayer service says when people go up for prayer there are catchers behind them. Next week I plan to attend the midweek service for the first time. Is it biblical for someone to be unable to move because of the holy spirit? I need to get out and buy a concordance. Everything else is good about the church, friendly loving people, good music, good sermons, youth oriented etc. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 329 Registered: 7-2003 |
Slain in the spirit is a concept AOG and pentecostals put under the umbrella of not specifically mentioned gifts, but speak more of a couple of examples of people falling down when encountering God. It's a weak argument from my perspective and the AOG pastor I have heard talk about it says that no pastor should ever push someone and sometimes pastors do that to get the effect, as in pushing the person down. Some people, I think, are predisposed to respond that way. On the other hand, I was in a service one time where a girl had been kneeling, with her arms raised up for a while (5, 10, 15 minutes, who counts) and she eventually fell over. It looked as though she fainted to me. She eventually "came to". No one had touched her, it was just during a praise and worship time and she was on her knees singing praises one minute, in seeming prayer the next with her arms upraised and out the next. If I didn't know the pastor's integrity and personal love for God (though I guess anyone can put on a front), it would be easy to be skeptical. But the ministers I've seen in the AOG denomination particularly, have been sincere and Godly men. One time, however, they had invited us forward for prayer about a specific issue and I went. But when they started walking around laying hands on people, and some were falling (with catchers), I returned to my seat and watched. I was 'scared' too of being embarrassed. There isn't anything specifically in scripture about being slain in the spirit and the AOG pastors i've heard address the question acknowledge that. But they use the examples of Paul's damascus road experience and a couple of others as examples. I worshipped in that denomination for several years and except for getting used to the charasmatics, found it a church I was easily comfortable in. The gospel was pure. It's like the first time someone speaks in tongues and gets an interpretation that seems talking right at you. Much of it is a comfort zone thing, I think. God's not out to embarrass us. I know people think it's not of God, but having listened for anything contrary to scripture, I've never seen it. I still remember one particular interpretation that seemed so pointed to me... "you call all your friends, and family and neighbors to ask them what you should do, but why don't you come to me...." I just couldn't imagine demons influencing me to pray. Keep in tune with the Spirit, and I believe you'll know if it's authentic or fake. My experiences, for what it's worth... | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 175 Registered: 5-2002 |
"Slain in the Spirit" is not Scriptural. It is not necessarily a bad thing, but it has been used in powerfully destructive ways by charlatans such as Benny Hinn to promote their false gospel. You will have to draw your own conclusions about how the gifts of the Holy Spirit are apparently manifest in your church of choice, but I personally would not be comfortable if being slain in the Spirit is either the focus or the goal of the service or the minister. What is at the center of the ministry, so-called unBiblical "gifts of the Spirit", or the spirit of prophecy which is testimony about Jesus Christ and Him crucified? I personally avoid events where slaying in the spirit is either expected or promised. It is my own way of protesting one method in which false shepherds mislead many sheep. Such ministers get neither my attention or my money. Please proceed with caution... | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 81 Registered: 4-2000 |
Good advice, Freeatlast! | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 61 Registered: 3-2004 |
Dr John White, a psychiatrist, did some research to determine whether or not various manifestations were mass hypnosis, demonic deception or genuinely from the Holy Spirit. The book is called When the Spirit Comes With Power. Praise God... | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 330 Registered: 7-2003 |
There is a difference between word-faith healers like Benny Hinn (who is false), and a pastor who lays hands on you to pray for you (not necessarily to "slay in the spirit"), but sometimes whatever it is happens. It doesn't seem too terribly different from saying all SDAs aren't Christians because they believe in SDA doctrines...which are equally unbiblical. I'm probably not in a position to judge beyond the AOG churches I've been in, but I've been in several and know many AOG people. I've never seen "slaying in the spirit" as the "point" of a service. The point has always been prayer about something in someone's life in anything I've seen. Not every service has such activities and in the ones I've attended for years, I went whole years without seeing any of that. So, as I said before, let the Spirit guide you as to what you are seeing, but it seems harsh from my personal experiences to negatively cast everyone in those groups. I attended an AOG church for nearly 4 years, and in that particular church and the one I went to in college, there wasn't any of that "slaying". Even in the churches where I've been and it has happened, it hasn't been the focus. The focus has always been having a closer relationship with Christ. I can't explain what I've seen, but I personally know some of "those" people and would consider them Christian brothers and sisters based upon the testimonies of Christ in their lives. Whether it's hyper-suggestibility or whatever, I do not know. But some of my closest friends were AOG. Their desire to serve God and follow his will for their lives was as sincere as mine, though flawed as mine. Our Christian Attorney General, John Ashcroft, is an AOG and either a minister himself or from a minister's family (kindof fuzzy on that detail). You can't discard the whole lot because of unscrupulous some. I say it again. Keep in tune with the Spirit, and I believe you'll know if it's authentic or fake...and whether it's where God is leading you. | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 176 Registered: 5-2002 |
You seem to have a good, balanced approach to it Melissa. Paul tells us not to quench the Spirit or despise prophetic utterances. I am just naturally skeptical of people and organizations that "schedule" manifestations of the Holy Spirit and make Woodstock-scale events out of it. The Sprit moves where and when and how He wills, like the wind. You can't schedule the wind, and likewise I belive that you can't schedule miracles of the Spirit either. It sounds to melike your particular church has a pretty good approach to such things. | ||
| Busymom Registered user Username: Busymom Post Number: 9 Registered: 4-2004 |
Hi Melissa, thank you so much for taking the time to post. There are several things that lead me to believe that I should be worshipping at this church for now. You are right, according to our Pastor speaking in tongues, or being slain in the spirit is never the point of the service. His sermons are grace filled and people are being led to the Lord through this church. Their teen outreach program has really impressed me. There is no other church in the area that really reaches out to teens like this one does. I am just uneasy because it is uncomfortable to go from thinking you have all the answers to questioning everything. I think that as long as Jesus remains the primary focus of the service, I may be able to adjust to worshipping in a charismatic church. Anything that takes the focus off Jesus whether it is the Sabbath, tongues, or being slain in the Spirit is obviously a problem. I have been enjoying not worshipping where the order of the service is not preplanned. There are people worshipping here that would never have been welcome at my local Adventist church. Also, the Sunday School doesn't stop in the summer. I have been e-mailing the pastor with any questions I have had and he has been very gracious about responding. Thank you Dennis and freeatlast for your comments. I am being cautious and time will tell if I am too cynical to worship at a charismatic church. I do feel skeptical, but am trying to keep an open mind. Thank you PraiseGod for the book suggestion, I will check it out. | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 23 Registered: 5-2004 |
I talked to a woman a few weeks ago who was saying she was down in Florida recently at some large scale revivial, anyone heard of it? Brownsvillle or something? anyway, she talked about people hopping like frogs and being unconscious for hours, laughing in the spirit etc. She was very moved by it. I tried to ask very delicately what she believed God's purpose was in making her friend hop like a frog, and she seemed nonplussed at my question. She said "well just to show that He is GOd and can do anything He wants, I guess." I think the thing that makes me skeptical is that these types of things don't really accomplish anything specific that I can see, and usually the things that God does have a purpose. It doesn't mean I don't think it can possibly be of God, but I am skeptical. I know that the dynamics of group think are powerful, and I wonder if this sometimes plays a prt in such things. Anyone else know about this revival deal in Pensacola Florida? | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 332 Registered: 7-2003 |
That sounds like word-faith type stuff...laughing in the spirit, etc. I would be skeptical of that as well. busymom, I had come from a very conservative baptist background where tapping your foot was close to dancing. To experience an AOG service, where there was real, visible praise (not the stoic silence I was used to) was incredibly freeing to me. I know there are people who find what I term stoic silence to be very reverential and worshipful...thank God he is big enough to receive all kinds of praise. I tend to run the gammut. My church now falls in the middle. We have people who raise hands, but no tongues in the service itself...though there are people who use them privately. for me, as you seem to say, it opened a whole new world of what praise could be ... and if it's from the heart and honors God (which rules out frog hopping), I believe God is pleased. Sometimes when I'm in my car, I raise my hands, but in church won't. Sometimes in church I do. It is all from the heart, not forced or choreographed. I also like the freedom in their service. There were times, that the pastor would be ready to preach and feel lead to pray about a topic and rather than a sermon, it's a prayer service. My current church has "scheduled" 2 such services and they have been incredibly well received. I hope to see them do more in the future. I don't visit the AOG church as much as I used to because I've become more involved in my own church's services, but I have high respect for the AOGs that I know. It's not a blanket endorsement, but I have grown and had some great spiritual insights in the freedom of a charasmatic church. The term "pensacola revivial" brings negative thoughts to mind, but I can't place my finger on why. I think I may have heard it on Bible answer man as part of the word-faith movement. maybe someone else will know better. | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 595 Registered: 7-2000 |
Busymom, being slain in the spirit is a valid experience. As Freeatlst and others have said, it is when a group focuses on that exprience, or any other manifestations of the Spirit that there is a problem. I have known several people very well who have had the experience. Many of these are people who were definitely not highly emotional people. The service they were in was not hyping up some atmosphere for it to happen. They were denifitely not seeking for the experience to happen. One was actually very much opposed to the idea of it ever happening. But, each of them was slain in the Spirit. And each of them will tell you that when it happened they were very deeply personally touched by the Lord. I have known people who have attended services at Brownsville. They were folks who were not into a bunch of hyped up stuff happening in services. They too saw the bizarre stuff happening. But they will also tell you that there was a clearly a deep move of the Spirit happening in those services. That they themselves were clearly touched. Think of it this way....when Christ was here on earth, dad satan ever show up and do weird stuff? When the disciples were going out peaching, did satan show up and do weird stuff too? Study it for yourself. As for Brownsville, it appears that the Lord was doing something huge there for quite a long time. It also appears to many that what the Lord was doing there is/has been winding down for quite some time now. That's the way it is with the Spirit. He does things the way He chooses, when He chooses, there is no formula....it is a matter of us seeing these break through demonstrations of the power of the kingdom of God for the purpose of touching peoples lives in very personal ways. He isn't in to doing things to draw attention to one group to give them notoriety. | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 63 Registered: 3-2004 |
This discussion makes me smile as I learned early on how judgmental Iíd been as an Adventist. Since Iíve gone to many different churches Iíve seen many types of services. My friends when I first faded out of Adventism were primarily mainline evangelical and the services mostly traditional. But as time progressed and my circle of friends widened, I got to more charismatic services. I remember one Sunday going to a church service that was way more into charismatic manifestations than I was used to. It was the only time Iíve heard laughter (not much, but enough to be disconcerting) in a church service. And I was really sitting there thinking critically to myself that this church couldnít possibly be from God. About that time the pastor invited up a young women to tell her story about witnessing. As the story unfolded, she told about being a waitress who had gotten acquainted with a regular over a period of time. He started getting very sick with constant headaches. It turned out he had an inoperable brain tumor. She kept asking him and asking him to come to church with her because he didnít have anything to lose. They invited the young man up to tell his part of the story. They had come to a Sunday evening service and arrived late with her bringing him when she got off work. He said he only came to get her off his back, not expecting anything to happen. He thought it was a really crazy place because there were people on the floor. He thought to himself that would never happen to him. The girl told the pastor the health issue, the pastor layed hands on him and prayed and he was slain in the Spirit. After no headaches the entire next week, he returned to church to give his life to Jesus. The week I was there was about two months later. He had his medical reports with him. He read the differences where no there was NO evidence of the brain tumor. A couple of months ago I ran into someone who attends that church. She told me the young man remains a firm believer, active in service to Jesus after about three years from my visit. Thatís just one of the lessons I have learned where God has made it clear that he isnít bothering to check with me about whether or not I consider certain things ěappropriateî or not. (said tongue in cheek.) Praise GodÖ | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 596 Registered: 7-2000 |
Praisegod it is interesting how He manages to teach us these lessons, isn't it? I would have to say that I can't give you a single scripture to defend holy laughter (and I am NOT referring to the false bit with everyone in a group laughing stupidly). Yet it has happened to me, and I can tell you that I know it is real. At the moment it happened, something was broken inside me and a door was opened for healing an area of deep hurt. It wasn't something I sought out or even believed in. Yet there it was. We are so quick to toss out the real because there is a counterfeit or because we aren't aware of a scripture giving a clear reference to what has happened. But I'd venture to say there is much in our Christian walk that has no straight scriptural referrence for support. I can't think of a single scripture to support the interesting phenomena of everyone in a congregation walking away from a sermon having heard something different in the same message. I can't think of a single scripture giving an example for the common occurrance of one day reading a very familiar scripture yet having it suddenly leap to life in your mind in such a way that now you KNOW what is being said. And there is no reference I know of telling how someone listening to the words of a song was suddenly deeply grabbed with the reality of God's love for them personally. Can't think of a reference that directly describes the experience of suddenly being overwhelmed with the reality of the peace of God. God does what He has to do to touch His children. The majority of the time it is straight from the scriptures. But He is not beyond resorting to whatever means He must to communicate His healing love to His children. The human mind and emotions can get mighty deeply tangled from the stuff that happens to us in this life. Sometimes He chooses to directly give the process of healing a major boost towards resolution. To fight it is to miss a huge blessing. Busymom, just because there are catchers there doesn't automatically mean the people are in the habit of forcing some behavior. It could be they are just prepared for whatever God chooses to do, and if no one is slain in the Spirit (at our church we think of it more as resting in the Spirit), then it is no big deal. IF however, you are in a group where it is obvious that falling down is expected behavior, there is manipulation, or people being pushed down, you should just get up and leave. There's nothing there for you. | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 65 Registered: 3-2004 |
As SDA I had everything figured out. I knew the proof texts I used for everything and everything was kept neatly inside of my little box. I believe that learning to experience God is one of the fantastic things that come as you move out of Adventism and into a closer relationship with Jesus. ButÖ.experiencing God means you have to trust him that heís in charge. And Iíve been in too many places where the Holy Spirit has showed up to ever question that Godís ways truly are higher than our ways. Busymom, I notice that in the first post of this thread you asked about books on prayer. Iíve kind of contemplated how I transitioned over the road that you are now on. First of all, the book Experiencing God mentioned on another thread is absolutely top-notch. But another point that comes to me is that I had to really learn about praise and true worship along with learning how to pray. I was looking through my bookshelf and one book on prayer I really enjoyed was The Beginnerís Guide to Intercession by Dutch Sheets. Itís been awhile since I read it and while leafing through it, I notice that at the beginning he says, ěOur motivation for prayer must be relationshipócommuning with God.î Thatís a concept I really, truly did not grasp as an Adventist. I thought I did, but looking back in hindsight, I see that prayer was more of an intellectual pursuit. Praise GodÖ | ||
| Jenntooth Registered user Username: Jenntooth Post Number: 7 Registered: 4-2004 |
Busymom, If you've never heard of it, the ACTS prayer has been very helpful in my prayer life. I never heard of such a thing as an SDA but learned about it at a bible study at my non-denominational church. Start with Adoration: exalting God to humble yourself. Next Confession: confession results in humility, repentance results in change. Confession plus repentance is freedom. Thanksgiving: giving thanks to God for His working in your life. Peace comes from thanksgiving. Finally is supplication: making your appeal to God-this releases our control and gives control to God. I thought that this prayer was so simple yet have found it to be so helpful in my life. Also helpful was Phil. 4:6-7 | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 81 Registered: 3-2004 |
I never heard of ACTS prayer when I was an SDA. I am learning about it now in my studies with the Christian church I attend. Like you Praisegod, I thought I had it all and did not need anything else. Of course I could not tell any one the gospel of Jesus, but I could tell them about the Sabbath. I am learning more about experiencing God now. What I learned in my 12 step program is now making sense as I learn from the Bible who God is and what He wants for me. He is truly an awesome God. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 266 Registered: 12-2003 |
The vulnerability of genuine prayer really startled me at the time we left Adventism. The first year we took our kids to the Christian school they've attended (the year before I started teaching there) I joined Moms in Touch. (I'd never heard of it before--imagine an international organiztion of women who pray for their kids in school--and I'd never heard of it.) At any rate, the first time I attended, I left crying, having no idea why I felt so emotional. I realize now that the Holy Spirit was there, and I'd never experienced any prayer group like that before. At any rate, as the year went on, those moms prayed for their kids so openly and from the heart. I'll never forget the day one mom prayed, "O God, I thank you that Paul was caught cheating on his Bible test. You know that I've always asked to you expose him if he did something wrong, and I thank you that you caused him to be caught and that you're dealing with him about this issue." I will never forget how that impacted me. In Adventism, no one admitted, even in prayer, what the real issues were in their lives. Prayer is so powerful when we're honest. When we're not, we're dishonoring the relationship Jesus has suffered and died to have with us. He can't possibly heal the parts of ourselves we don't want to admit are broken. Those Moms In Touch really taught me some important things! Colleen |
