| Author | Message | ||
| Krista Registered user Username: Krista Post Number: 11 Registered: 8-2004 |
Here is a quote from EGW with the attitude that we go to Heaven when we die. "Enoch's translation to Heaven just before the destruction of the world by a flood, represents the translation of all the living righteous from the earth previous to its destruction by fire." (Spiritual Gifts, vol. 3, p. 59) Is it correct that the soul sleep idea originated to simply to fit in with the Investigative Judgement? When did she suddenly change her tune on this idea, and how did she explain it? | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 30 Registered: 7-2004 |
This EGW quote does not mean EGW believed people go straight to heaven when they die. Enoch didn't die, but was translated, which meant he went straight to heaven without dying. EGW is saying that at the second coming, those who have not yet died but are righteous, will go straight to heaven without having died. That's what it teaches somewhere in Thessalonians anyway, that at the last trump (2nd coming), those which are alive and remain will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. I don't know the whole history of EGW's progression of belief on soul sleep, but the EGW quote you mentioned is not inconsistent with belief in soul sleep. | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 147 Registered: 5-2004 |
I asked my husband about this very thing the other day. We were talking about the few people that were directly translated to heaven, and I asked "does that mean that just a few old guys are rattling around up there with God?" And he said "yeah, I guess so. I hadn't ever thought about it, but I guess so." -the question of sould sleep is one that my husband still hasn't reconciles himself with. He has a great deal of difficulty thinking that a loving God would let us suffer on Earth while the "lucky ones" die and get to go to heaven. Any good information anyone has on this, especially written by or for former SDAs, would be greatly appreciated. | ||
| Krista Registered user Username: Krista Post Number: 12 Registered: 8-2004 |
I understand about the 2nd coming... but shouln't Enoch be "sleeping" right now? My impression of soul sleep is that there is supposedly nobody in Heaven yet... Also, she even traveled to a planet and had a conversation with Enoch - yet I understand we're not supposed to contact the dead. Sorry for my confusion and thx for your help! | ||
| Sheryl Registered user Username: Sheryl Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2004 |
The doctrine of soul sleep never brought me any comfort, and I had many difficulties with passages of scripture where the Apostle Paul speaks on being "absent from the body, and present with the Lord". I could not reconcile his writings with what I was taught both as a child and adult. I can't remember a lot of EGW's writings, but it appears that she was trying to make Enoch's translation prior to the flood, match up to the belief that believers were to be translated at the second coming. My understanding of soul sleep: you simply did not exist, the body slept in the ground, and your breath went back to God in order to await God bringing you back to life at the second coming. I have had to research different websites that counter the doctrine of soul sleep, and have had to look in the Bible to determine what God's word has to say about it. The IJ doctrine was one of the first ones that I had to dismiss as not Biblical, others may differ on this. I never had assurance of salvation because of this idea. If anyone has any additional input it would be greatly appreciated. | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 121 Registered: 6-2004 |
This is a topic that will forever haunt former SDA's. I was really deflated when I was taught about the soul sleep theory and it was a hard issue to erase from my mind, even to this day. I can't see how anyone could see any comfort in knowing that when you are dead, that's it. Even if you were looking forward to a resurrection day, the idea of dying is not peaceful but one of dread. Thankfully the truth outshines the lies of EGW's ideas and wherever she is now (heaven or hell), I'm sure she's regretting her doctrine that has misled so many. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 621 Registered: 12-2003 |
This question was one that grew on me gradually until one day it hit me: if my spirit is my breath, then the Holy Spirit (who witnesses to my spirit that I am God's child--Romans 8:16) must be communicating with me in my nose. I don't think so! I began to realize that the Bible is full is texts that describe our spirits as something volitional and knowing. (see Matthew 26:41; Luke 1:80; Luke 23:46; John 4:23-24; 1 Corinthians 2:11; 5:3; 2 Corinthians 7:1; Philippians 2:1-2; 1 thessalonians 5:23; 2 Timothy 1:7; Hebrews 4:12; 1 Peter 3:3-4, for example.) Our spirits are the part of us that know God. Therefore, if our spirits know God, Jesus' words on the cross when he said, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit" had to mean that he was committing to God something much more meaningful than his breath. The Bible just isn't clear on exactly what condition our spirits are in when we're dead. Many people believe that our spirits are something real and essential, but they are asleep while they're with Jesus. Paul, however, suggests something quite different. One of the reasons I believe Paul is speaking from true knowledge and not just in metaphorical terms (as I believed as an Adventist) is that he says in 2 Corinthians 12 that fourteen years earlier, he had gone to "the third heaven" (although he didn't know whether he was in or out of the body) and that he had seen things he wasn't permitted to tell. When he wrote 2 Corinthians, he had already visited heaven. He wrote from first-hand experience and teaching from the risen Christ. He clearly says in 2 Corinthians 5: 7-9 that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, and we make it our goal to serve him whether in or out of the body. In Philippians 1:23 he said that he desired "to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far," but it was more necessary to remain in the body. Adventists explain this by saying that it seems instantaneous because the dead have no awareness of time. But Paul is not talking about resurrection in either of these passages. He is talking about being away from the body and present with the Lord. Since the Bible is quite clear that our spirits are not merely breath, since Jesus (and Stephen--Acts 7) committed their spirits into the hands of God at their deaths, then clearly the part of us that knows God goes to be with him with our bodies die. I don't believe our spirits can roam around; the living cannot visit the dead. It appears that our spirits stay with/in Christ--but according to Paul, this condition is better than being on earth in these limiting bodies. Of course, no one can make a completely difinitive statement about what it's really like, but Paul had the most first-hand knowledge of anyone who wrote about the subject, and he says to depart and be with Christ is better by far. Adventists had to have soul sleep; how, otherwise, would they explain the presence of people with God before the IJ got to their names? (And why does God need the IJ to know who is His, anyway? Isn't He omniscient?) Praise God that not even death can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord! (Romans 8:39) Colleen | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 93 Registered: 7-2004 |
My husband has a hard time with this concept. Like PW said, it is "haunting" for him. He feels that it would be very unloving of God to allow us to "live" with the knowledge of loved ones still on earth "suffering" through the turmoils of life. How do I address these fears for him? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 622 Registered: 12-2003 |
You know, there is nothing in the Bible that suggests that the souls of the dead have awareness of life on earth. The only thing is says is that we are with Christ. Souls without resurrection bodies, it seems, are limited, but they are not separated from Christ or God's love. We really aren't told how things really are, but if it's "better by far" (or more literally, "very much better") to be with Christ, then I don't believe the souls in heaven are suffering with knowing our earthly sufferings here. Colleen | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 456 Registered: 7-2003 |
If we take the story of Lazarus as a window of paradise, it doesn't seem there is any awareness of what's going on on earth...and you could even say the favorite Ec. 9:5 where the dead know nothing is talking about their knowledge of things "under the sun", further indicating tha the dead can't see what's going on on earth. Is that "watching people suffer" an SDA thought/teaching? B has said the same thing that he can't imagine being happy watching those he loves on earth suffering...but why can't you see it as watching their joys and happy times too if you're going to take that thought process? It does also seem that if Paul calls being with Christ as "much rather better" (depending upon translation) that we're not going to be sitting around "watching people suffer". On that same thought, there is no indication we "watch" people burn in hell. The "how can you enjoy eternity watching people in torment?" question is on the same plane. The Bible says they are cast into outer darkness, "outside" wherever we are...I doubt there will be windows where we go "watch". I've even had some suggest that God will have to somehow heal our memories to keep us from living with the guilt and grief over lost loved ones. That is more what I wonder about. I don't think there would be any greater peace thinking my loved one had ceased existing over their eternal punishment. But it is all speculation that will some day be revealed... Keeps me mindful of my real desire to see people know Christ. | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 122 Registered: 6-2004 |
I'm no scholar but when Samuel appeared to Saul in "spirit form" when the witch of Endor conjured him up, he seemed to be aware of the present situation of how God was no longer annointing Saul but David. Maybe it was an isolated incident. I often wonder how a person could enjoy heaven knowing they left family members & friends behind, but Paul did say we see through a darkened mirror and are trying to anaylize these things in a mortal way. I just hang onto the verse speaking of no eye or ear has seen or heard the wonderful things God has prepared for those who love him. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 97 Registered: 7-2004 |
PW, Where is that verse found ("no eye or ear...")? That is an excellent thought. Melissa, I had never thought of Ec. 9:5 in the way you presented it. I like the "under the sun" thought, too. You're right - God will have to "heal our memories" or change our emotions in someway to not mourn all those "Christian" friends and loved ones that do not accept His glorious gift of Grace as their only way of salvation. I know how a mourn for them now... May I prove myself "to be blameless and innocent, [a child] of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom [I, through the Holy Spirit,] appear as a light in the world..." Phil. 2:15. | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 151 Registered: 5-2004 |
last night, my husband and I sat down to really research the concepts of soul and spirit in the Bible. we used the verses offered here by Colleen (thank you!) as a starting point. It was one of the first times that he and I have been able to study something theological that we had disagreements on, and not feel tension. It was great! He really saw how starting with the Bible's use of the terms soul and spirit, you just didn't end up with a doctrine of soul sleep. that you had to start at the doctrine of the IJ and work backwards to tweak some prooftexts into support of the idea of soul sleep. Most obvious was that the spirit just can not simply mean breath. It is so much more. Thanks, guys for your input. I felt God's presence in our study, and that is a long time coming. As I have said before, our past arguments over theology (back when he was historic SDA) were still getting in the way of our spiritual relationship with each other, until just recently. My husband definitely got a final release from the SDA "hold" when he pulled his membership from the SDA church a few months ago. I think he is now free, and shedding the last of the EGW influences. God is good. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 628 Registered: 12-2003 |
Praise God, Tanya! I understand the transformation in your husband. Pulling one's membership really is a leap into freedom. One person I know who recently wrote to have his name removed after years of knowing he couldn't buy Adventism said recently that he is starting to feel a depression lifting. How wonderful that you are beginning to be able to study the Bible together with mutual joy and discovery! Colleen | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 25 Registered: 7-2004 |
Does anyone remember hearing about how when Jesus came forth from the tomb that there was an earthquake and many graves were opened and that saints from the beginning of time went to heaven? I remember that from my mother, so it had to be an EGW story. I remember thinking that even Adam and Eve were up there in heaven due to the resurrection at that time? Is it EGW or from the Bible? | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 29 Registered: 7-2004 |
Matt 27:52 | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 100 Registered: 7-2004 |
I just looked up Matt. 27:52. My Bible says, "...many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised." Was there a change from the death of O.T. characters to those after Christ? Is this just talking of bodies? The bodies were reunited with their spirits? | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 516 Registered: 3-2004 |
Tanya, just hearing about you and your husband reminds me of how awesome God is. I am so glad for the two of you. As for the souls in heaven, If I was in heaven right now I would be so happy to be in God's presence I would not want to watch what is happening in this world. That is how I think right now. Diana | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 26 Registered: 7-2004 |
Yes, I came across Matt. 27:52 this morning and that is where I got that. My study Bible had no comment on it. I really couldn't even figure out what that verse means because it said the saints appeared to the people AFTER His resurrection. How could they be raised at the time of the tearing of the curtain (Jesus' death) and then come out of their graves after His resurrection to appear to the people? I just want to know what Christians have studied about this and not the EGW twist. Because I do know that EGW fixes the problem of Moses appearing by creating a new story about the angels raising him after he died. | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 125 Registered: 6-2004 |
Dd, that scripture is found in I Corinthians 2:9. It says "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him". As for the spirit references in the O.T., read Isaiah where he writes about the coming death of the king of Babylon, he quotes that the "spirits of the departed" are awaiting him and even know about his situation on earth by claiming he will be brought down to where they are. I'm sure EGW would manipulate that into something else like she did with every other scripture regarding the spirit or soul. |
