| Author | Message | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 898 Registered: 11-2002 |
I went down the scroll to the same title and it is closed. So I will start it anew. On a different website I read the autobiography of a man named H.F. Brown. It is extremely interesing. He has this quote in his autobiography of EGW. She says, "Those who reject the messages of God's servant reject not only the Son, but God the Father". 5 T. pg. 661. She is referring to herself as God's servent. With this statement she is placing herself equally as an addition to the Trinity. I would like a discussion n this. Also, I would like to be bold enough to share this statement with various SDA loved ones but the truth is I get very intimadated around them and I turn into a coward. However, I found that quote by EGW appalling!!! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 643 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Susan, I wish people in general knew about the preposterous claims EGW made for herself. For the church not to renounce her means they absolutely accept a non-Biblical prophet, and that fact is one they try to deny to the public. Yet it is true. They accept a non-Biblical prophet, and their doctrines are shaped by her. Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 158 Registered: 4-2000 |
I saw the PASSION OF LOVE book at Walmart here in Lincoln, Nebraska this evening. Interestingly, I noticed that it merely states that "E. G. White" is the author instead of the usual "Ellen G. White" name on her books. Being that E. B. White is a famous writer, shoppers may get confused by the first two initials "E. G. White." Inside the PASSION OF LOVE book is an offer to obtain the DESIRE OF AGES also by "E. G. White" instead of Ellen G. White. Obviously, this is yet another deception on the general public. They don't want Walmart shoppers to know about "Ellen" (at least not yet). The publishers know that the normative "Ellen G. White" designation would raise eyebrows among many of the Walmart shoppers. Sadly, many will quickly buy the book without making the connection with the SDA prophetess. Being born in deception, Seventh-day Adventism boldly continues to deceive the public. Personally, I consider it my moral obligation to expose their deceptive tactics. With stagnant growth in North America, they are desperate to increase their dwindling membership. By the way, Robert Folkenberg, the come-back kid that never lost a paycheck, is scheduled to be the keynote speaker for the forthcoming Westpoint Evangelism Conference (even sounds legalistic and/or militaristic) in Simi Valley, California during the first week in December. Many other presenters of the "Old Boy Network" will be there as well. He is advertised as being a Global Evangelist of the Carolina Conference. Apparently, they have no shame. A former insider, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 899 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dear Dennis, This presentation in Semi Valley in December, will it be at the SDA media center? Over there where they have their high-roller one and two day "campmeetings" every year for the folks who have contributed at least $1000 the past year to this or that various ministries? I have gone to several of those events. And, no, I have never contributed and money to any of them. I attend with kinfolk. At those events lunch is provided by a local cateror. It's always real good food. I'm just contimplating that I may be asked to drive kinfolk to hear that Folkenberg dude. The good thing about it is Costco is about a stones throw from the Adventst Media Center and when I can't take the SDA peptalk anymore I can slip out and go to Costco. BTW, who is this Folkenbery fellow I hear so much about? Isn't the current SDA pope named Johnssen? At this meeting do the devotees say 1844 Hail Ellen's to get absolved for every 666 cups of coffee they've drank? I better stop. But, really, who is Folkenberg? | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 160 Registered: 4-2000 |
Susan, Robert Folkenberg, former GC President (during late 1990s), was removed from office due to an eight million dollar personal business entanglement with a Catholic organization of all things. A key person for the Catholic charity, a Mr. Moore if I remember his name correctly, sued him and the church for eight million dollars. There were numerous other unethical behaviors as well. The SDA Church settled out of court for about half that amount. Like Colleen mentioned earlier, Robert Folkenberg could not have done all these shady deals without support from his peers. Consequently, he has never missed a paycheck. The Old Boy Network is very loyal. The Adventist tithe dollars are hard at work! Folkenberg was not even publicly mentioned at the Toronto GC Session--whereas the delegates enthusiastically sang Happy Birthday to Neil Wilson, another former GC President before Folkenberg was forced to resign in disgrace. This Westpoint Evangelism Conference will be held at an elegant hotel in Simi Valley. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 900 Registered: 11-2002 |
I guess I have been out of touch with the going-on in the SDA for a long time. How come Fokenberg had dealings with Catholic Charities? I thought the SDA charities were ADRA, Dorcus, etc. Where the sitting-in-the-pews SDA's aware of these shananigans? Did that $8 million scandle make the mainstream news? Is that one reason the tithe money has dropped so greatly with the SDA's? Isn't their president now named Johnnsen? He's the fellow who I read in the Review in an issue about that convention that was held in Canada awhile back that said he stakes his salvation on being SDA, isn't he the one that said that? When I read that I was at my moms. I was appalled at what I was reading. I read the statement to her and exclaimed my aghast. She was cool with it, thought it ws a-o.k., made some statement about that being fine as the SDA is the only major denomination that teaches keeping he commandments, you know the line, I'm sure. | ||
| Madelia Registered user Username: Madelia Post Number: 79 Registered: 2-2003 |
Dennis and Susan, You both have made me chuckle this morning  Dennis, I enjoyed how you described Folkenberg as never missing a paycheck. And Susan, I can just picture you slipping out of the meeting to shop at Costco. One comment, on the Walmart and "Passion of the Ages": Before I joined the SDA church, I would have had no clue who Ellen G. White was, much less E.G. White. So if I saw a book with Ellen G. White as the author, I would have not known it was associated with the SDA church. All I knew about the church was that they went to services on Saturday. And, I think the current GC president is Paulsen. I think he's Swedish or Norwegian. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 649 Registered: 12-2003 |
You're right, Melissa--Jan Paulsen is the current GC president, and he's the one that said he risked losing salvation if he were to leave Adventism. He's Norwegian, I believe. Dennis, how amazing. I hadn't heard about the Westpoint Evangelism Conference. So they're bringing him back into the open. Indeed, as you said, they have no shame!! It's absolutely astonishing to me how Adventists recycle their "good old boys", as you put it. Folkenberg is much more high profile than a recent administrator of LLUMC, but he was put into that position after being put out to pasture, so to speak, for--as I understand it--embezzlement. He's finally retired, I believe, but the corruption knows no bounds. I have no proof, but I'm confident that Folkenberg has by no means ceased his lucrative business deals, partnering with whomever will yield him the greatest return. Of course, the church benefits... It's to his tax advantage, naturally, to have links with non-profit organizations. Westpoint Evangelism Crusade--hmmm--soldiers for Christ? Soldiers for prophet--oops, profit? How to raise money to battle paganism as a front for power and profit? I'm sorry, I'm really sounding cynical now. You know, I just realized that even Robert Folkenberg needs to be on my Saturday prayer chain list. I pray that God keeps us faithful and that we will honor Him. Colleen | ||
| Madelia Registered user Username: Madelia Post Number: 82 Registered: 2-2003 |
My husband has EGW writings on his laptop. Last night I noticed he had a text opened up and it was saying something to the effect of : "I've searched the Bible and cannot find anywhere that it mentions Jesus and his disciples partaking in amusement or physical exercise." The citation at the end was CT. The only EGW book I ever read was "Great Controversy" (and I had to force myself to read it; I had a hard time with the writing style, for one thing). So, has anyone else ever read that statement? What does CT stand for? Or did I read it wrong? Would it have been in GT? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 661 Registered: 12-2003 |
Madelia, the sentence you read does not sound like Ellen White; it sounds more like someone's response to reading the Bible to support an Ellen White statement. CT, I believe, is "Counsels to Teachers". It's one of the many compilations the White Estate has created over the years, combining her comments from various different sources and juxtaposing them (out of context, of course) with each other into books addressing certain audiences. (I have to be careful; I can't remember with 100% certainty that CT is a compilation and not an authentic book on its own, but I believe it is.) I do know Ellen did make several different statements about not participating in amusements, and I know she had things to say about exercise as well, though I can't tell you what they were now! (Since we burned her books including the three-volume index to her writings, I can't look these things up quickly. Her writings are avaialble, however, online.) I believe that her comments re: amusement and exercise would have been the sorts of things that one might find in counsels to teachers--but the quote above does not sound like a quote from her book. Sorry for the vagueness, but I hope this helps. Colleen | ||
| Madelia Registered user Username: Madelia Post Number: 84 Registered: 2-2003 |
Thanks Colleen, I almost wondered if it's something my husband wrote himself, and just used CT as a reference. It looked like a powerpoint presentation slide. In my dreams, I would have a big bonfire and burn every EGW book and every Amazing Facts booklet in our house!! This is a little off the subject, since the thread topic is EGW quotes, but I was looking at an Amazing Fact booklet/pamphlet the other day. It was one with some spooky picture of a woman looking into a crystal ball and the title was something about prophecy. Anyway, the gist of it was to justify EGW as a prophet. It even said one of her books has been used as a textbook or reference in a secular university. Of course, it never gave the university's name | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 9 Registered: 8-2004 |
Madelia, That quote reminds me of one that is in EGW (I think in Desire of Ages) that says Jesus "was never known to laugh". But was not the reaction of many humans to the unlikely miracles God performed laughter? Sarah named Isaac "laughter" because God made her laugh, and that all those who hear could laugh with her. Has not God promised to turn our mourning into dancing and take our sorrows away? helovesme2 | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 906 Registered: 11-2002 |
Isn't the book, Counsils to Teachers just egw's book, Education with a different title? There are numerous occassions in the Bible of laughter and even more promoting joy, peace and happiness. There are numerous places where booze is promoted to help loosen one up to have a good time. I always thought maybe it was me, that I just was unable to see any joy or fun in the lives of the sda's I am close to. I have from the days of my early childhood been prone to break out in uncontrolable laughter and to seeing the humourous and funny side in almost any situtation. I always felt the lack of beig able to develope a sense of humor was a sad/sda thing. Just last week something struck me funny and I broke out laughing and my 83 year old lifelong sda mother admnished me telling me I laugh too much. I told her, "What's wrong with that? It was funny." Her reply, "Laughing makes me uncomfortable. Please, don't do that so much around me". | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 669 Registered: 12-2003 |
I believe that Councils to Teachers and Education are two different books with different sets of quotes juxtaposed in different ways. As Richard says, it's just another way to make money! Colleen | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 657 Registered: 7-2000 |
Oh Susan...that is funny (and sad!) about your mom telling you that you laugh too much and that laughing makes her uncomfortable! Do you attend a "Sabbath-School" class with your mom when you take her to church? (This morning our Sunday School class was good...and it included lots of laughing!) grace always, cindy | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 912 Registered: 11-2002 |
My mom doesn't attend the SS class. She likes to stay for potluck and if she gets there for the 11 o'clock service she doesn't get too tired. However, when I was a child and my parents were much younger they did attend the entire Saturday morning goings-on at the sda church. I had an extremely schitzopherenic religious upbringing. First, let me say that my parents would never consider a church that that wasn't a Sabbath-keeping church. That was/is the #1 criteria in attending a church. I have relativies who are Seventh-day Baptist. I loved going to church with them when I had the opportunity to do so. My mom never said anything either pro or con Seventh-day Baptist but my dad didn't like me being influenced by the SDB's because in his words, "they don't have enough rules and you can believe and do just about anything and be a SDB and the whole purpose of religion is to set guidelines on behavior". So, I didn't get to go much with my SDB cousins to church. But, across town was a Church of God (Seventh-day). My dad actually agreed with them the most but since the SDA had a nice childrens SS and the Church of God (Seventh-day) was very small and didn't have a children's department we would attend SS at the SDA and then quickly speed across town to get to the sermon at the Church of God (Seventh-day). The Worldwide Church of God met in a rented hall at yet another part of town on Saturday afternoons and we would have lunch (generally packed because my parents at that time still would not eat out on Sabbath as they then still wouldn't spend money on Sabbath) and then attend the WWCG in the afternoons. So, in the SDA and COG I'd hear that alcohol was wrong. In the WWCG the folks would actually bring their booze with them. At all three I'd hear the same line on the state of the dead but at the SDB I'd hear about our loved ones being now in the arms of Jesus singing praises into eternity in joy of being with The Lord. At the SDA, WWCG and the COG I'd hear about the evil of pork but at the SDB I'd get ham sandwitches at potluck. At the SDA I'd hear about the wonders of EGW. At the WWCG I'd hear about the wonders of Herbert W. Armstrong. In the SDA and the COG I'd hear it is wrong to dance. The WWCG actually had church dances at the hall after the service and the SDB, being the most level-headed of all kept out of those things believing if one has a relationship with Jesus then whatever that person does will be clean-cut and decent. At the SDA I'd be exposed to the holidays. The SDB's again being very level-headed would have nice programs for Easter and Christmas, etc. but not go overboard. At the WWCG and the COG I'd hear that holidays are a sin but at the WWCG they'd practice all the OT holy days. Then once, only once, I was allowed to attend Sunday School and the service with some Lutheran cousins. I loved it and I always remembered it and growing up if I was near a Lutheran church and my parents weren't looking I'd sneek into the Lutheran church and just savor it. I loved the feeling I'd have in the Lutheran churches. One of peace, of having the presence of God in the church, I liked looking at the cross and wondering if it was true that Jesus really died on one of those for me. And, I'd promise God that when I grew up I'd ditch that religious weirdness that I was being raised in and find a Christian church. After going to a Lutheran church once and the SDB sometimes I had enough of real Christianity to see the difference between the real and the fake that I was exposed to at the WWCG, the COG and the SDA. Oh, and the COG and the WWCG would give entire sermons denying the Trinity. The SDA never seemed to much get into the Trinity one way or another but the SDB would emphasise that is the hallmark of Christian teaching. I went three years of elementary and one year and several months of high school to sda schools. The rest of the schooling was in public schools. I'd hear this or that in one church and the opposite in another that we went to on Saturdays. The result was that I'd pretty much decided by fifth grade that they were all stupid and when I grew up I'd read my Bible myself and find a Christian church to go to. And, that is what I did. Now though even my mom tells me that she wishes there was a SDB church within driving distance because she's decided she likes them the best. Since there isn't a SDB church near she settles on the SDA. It always gets back to the issue of Sabbath. A lot of SDA's I know will disagree with the SDA on most everything and agree with a Christian church on most everything but they will not attend the Chrisian church and will attend the SDA church all because of the Sabbath doctrine. And, I cannot ever understand how attending church on Sunday somehow causes one to not keep the Sabbath holy. It's two completely different days of the week, two completely different time periods. I guess I got to rambeling. Catch ya all later. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 549 Registered: 3-2004 |
Susan_2, I am so glad God loves you and used your schizophrenic upbringing to help you out of Adventism. At least you had found something that gave you peace, the Lutheran church. Diana | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 167 Registered: 4-2000 |
Susan, Wow, your reflections about regularly attending four different Sabbatarian churches (SDB, WCG, COG, and SDA) is most remarkable and truly unique. I have never heard of such an experience from anyone else. What a blatant exposure to legalism in four different ways! Praise God, you discovered the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Thank you for sharing this extraordinary glimpse of your upbringing. In awe of His grace, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 919 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dennis, In all fairness I don't see any legalism in the Seventh-day Baptist Church. However, the other three denominatios are (were, in the case of the WWCG) very legalistic. And, did you know Herbert W. Armstrong allowed his very lovely first wife to die with what would have been a very routine surgical procedure to fix? She died from hernia complications. It is very sad. At that time the WWCG still did not allow their members to go to doctors, the ladies even had to have their babies at home and sometimes there would be coplications. Well, "too bad", they would say to the members. The SDA church where my mom attends rents out their social hall on Saturday afternoons to some left-over die-hard Herbert W. Armstrong devotees. That's why the SDA's have to make sure the room is clean and cleared out by 1:30 because the HWA people start their church at 2:00. Really though, I would still be attending the Seventh-day Baptist if there was a SDB church within drivig distance to my house. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 169 Registered: 4-2000 |
Susan, For the sake of denominational accuracy, the official spelling of the SDB Church is as follows: Seventh Day Baptist Church. SDAs, of course, officially spell their name as: Seventh-day Adventist Church. It is an interesting, grammatical difference. I don't know why the difference exists. Nebraska, where I live, only has one SDB Church (in north central Nebraska). In my view, they are legalistic because they observe a holy day. There are no holy days in the Christian calendar. Thanks again for the information about Sabbatarian groups. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 922 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yes, they do acknowledge Sabbath from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset as Sabbath. Yet, at the SDB churches I've attended they tend to be very Christ focused and I have heard numerous times different SDB folks I know say that their first calling in the great commission is to bring Jesus to the people. The SDB people I know would much rather people attend a Sunday Christin church than not hear of Jesus at all. I just am pointig this out because even though they have a special day, Sabbath, they use this time to the glory of Jesus. The SDB are members of the American Baptist organization. I don't know about other SDB groups but the one where I attended for our Sabbath School classes we used the Bible study lessons put out by the Lutherans through Concordia Publishing. The entire "feeling" if you can know what I mean, is different at the SDB than the SDA. We frequently would get SDA visitors. Sometimes they would ask questions after the service, like about pork, the state of the dead, does the SDB have "a health message", blah, blah, blah. After fully understanding that Seventh Day Baptists are Baptist and not SDA's with a different name they generally wouldn't come back. And, you know what I think about that? I think it's o.k. because there are people who need strict rules so they can keep their conduct in check. There are people who would probably be in prison if they didn't have the streict rules of their religion. And, Dennis, you are correct about the spelling. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 474 Registered: 7-2003 |
You know, I've heard from someone else who went to college in Lincoln and had SDA friends that "those kinds of people just need strict structure in their faith". A, that kind of structure can prohibit the Holy Spirit's ability to guide one's life as it might be 'coloring outside the lines'. B, it allows people to be lazy and "follow rules" rather than God. One of the fruits of the spirit is self-control. I'm not sure that fruit gets developed if you're just following rules. It's like a dog that learns to stay on its property whether there are fences up or not. (I knew people who used to have a dog like that). There is certainly something to be said for boundaries, but only when those boundaries are in tune with the Holy Spirit and don't bind your ability to folllow the Spirit's leading. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 923 Registered: 11-2002 |
I came to that belief about rules in religion while I was married to a man who most of his relatives had converted to JW. He has one sister who can get extremely riled up. Before becomming a super-JW she'd always have her ice pick available so if she needed to stab someone she was ready to do this. Now she's JW and she has her ice pick in a location where if she thinks she needs to stab someone she has to go get it, therefore giving her time to think through this horrid behavior and hopefully calm down and not go through with the stabbing. Funny thing is that those people are committing major welfare fraud and they totally justify it because all governments are of satan anyway so committig fraud against satan is o.k. and also if I would tell them that our country is By The People, For The People and Of The People so they're screwing over the hardworking American taxpayers their answer is that those people don't have the truth anyway and so it's o.k. but they never would do that behavior to another sister or brother IN THE TRUTH. I know these people very well. They would be in prison if it wasn't for their restrictive religion. In fact, most of them do go to prison when they are in their periods of being backslidden JW's. I agree with you tho that the Holy Spirit is inhihibited in this way of believing. I am just so glad that God is our judge and knows all our limtations and vunerabilities because I also know some people need the external structure of the rules and don't have the internal ability to set limits. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 684 Registered: 12-2003 |
Melissa, what an interesting observation, "I'm not sure that fruit gets developed if you're following rules." You're completely right. The fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22-23 stands in contrast to the observance of the law which Paul had just spent 4 and one-half chapters decrying. The fruit of the Spirit only develops when we live by the Spirit, not by the flesh--which includes the works of law-keeping. Colleen | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 10 Registered: 8-2004 |
Excellent point Melissa! If all we do is wall our sinfulness in with rigid outside guidelines, we never really get to know ourselves. And because we 'look good' (or think we do) we don't really feel the need to repent and be changed by God. I think that's why some of Jesus's strongests denunciations were about hypocrites. Hypocrites are sinners just like others, they just think people can't see it. I'm thankful God keeps working with each of us! helovesme2 | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 40 Registered: 7-2004 |
Law-keeping and strict behavioral guidelines may help keep society in line and keep people out of jail, which is certainly a good thing. But it will never give one person eternal life! Only Jesus' righteousness counts; ALL our righteousness is filthy rags. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 477 Registered: 7-2003 |
I had a singles minister (the one with the dog, actually) who used to ask why people always asked him how far they could go before something was sin (say in the sexual relations area) rather than wondering how righteously they could live their life. He said it was like people don't want to sin, but they want to ride right next to the line. He challenged us to move beyond "not sinning" to living righteously so that the lines aren't even visible. To me, that is the same message Paul uses when he calls the law elementary principles. And yes, it's GREAT God keeps working with us.... |
