| Author |
Message |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 40
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 7:46 pm: |     |
Hoytster--
My comment wasn't particularly directed at anyone, it just happened to follow yours.
My comment was more about a theme that I see here from time to time. For a group of people who have been set free from a fixation on a day (to use Susan's words), sometimes we seem to get fixated again on a day. Seems a lot like the same old thing with a new twist. |
Tracey
Registered user
Username: Tracey
Post Number: 18
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 9:22 pm: | |
And I believe, don't just pick a day even, even more important is to make sure the church is balanced and providing you with the opportunity to grow and mature spiritually in Christ. And whatever church has these things, THAT is where you go, regardless of the day. ; ) |
Pw
Registered user
Username: Pw
Post Number: 136
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 6:44 am: | |
I think many former SDA's have a bit of an uncomfortable feeling about switching from Saturday to Sunday. I know I did, it felt like I was betraying God (but in reality it was just an SDA grip that was still trying to control me). After a little while it wore off and now I have no problem with Sunday attendance. Sometimes I go to a Saturday evening service, not because of the seventh day observance but because it's a chance to have a Sunday free. Jesus said his yoke is easy and his burdon is light, why anyone would want to have EGW "undo" his commands is a sad decision. I know I regretted it and will forever be grateful to be free from the traditions of man...or woman! |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 480
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 10:15 am: | |
Tracey, from your 9/11 8:41 post...where C claimed to be non-denominational who choose to worship on Saturday... B did the same thing. I haven't gotten through the rest of the posts, but that just makes my point again. I had been pointing out the texts in Acts and Luke that called going to the Synagogue on the Sabbath a 'custom' and pointed out at the end of Luke the women "rested" in keeping with the commandment. So, synagogue is custom, rest is commandment. Then B said he was keeping the same custom....yet they condemn Sunday worship as some man-made tradition. Don't be deceived. To me, it's just more rhetoric. The hold of Adventism on people is tightly intertwined and it will take untangling more than one issue to change his heart. Keep yourself grounded. I hope he reads the books, but I know B only read one and from a very defensive position. The seed of the word fell on rocks and eventually the birds within adventism ate it until it was all gone. Remember the parable? |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 696
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 11:17 am: | |
Ric_b, you make a valid point about observing the "anti-Saturday" feeling many have. I suspect I'm one of those who sounds "anti-Saturday". I know I probably don't have to say this again, but I'm going to: I personally am not "anti-Saturday". I fully agree that we should never judge another for the day they keep; all days (as all foods) are available for us to enjoy, consecrated to the Lord.
That being said, I still strongly believe that most (admittedly perhaps not all) former Adventists have a subliminal attachment to the day based on long tradition, practice, and teaching. There is a subliminal fear of losing salvation if one abandons the day. That is why I believe that people leaving the church need to abandon the day as well. It requires an act of faith to "descrate" the day as an act of expressing total faith in Jesus alone. Again, it's like the 1 Corinthians and Acts 15 command for the converted pagans not to eat meat offered to idols even though Paul said he could eat it because those idols meant nothing to him. For those converted pagans, though, the idols used to mean something, and they used to have a spiritual hold on them. Eating meat offered to them would put those people back into a practice conditioned with behaviors and responses from the past, and they would be opening themselves up to fears and temptations to embrace old beliefs.
That being said, I do believe that many former Adventists eventually grow to a point where worshiping on Saturday may not evoke old responses and fears and a sense of "covering the bases" of salvation. But then, and Hoytster observed, why go back to a church which holds Sabbath sacredness?
I really do not believe the day is something to judge in one another. And I also want to say it's possible that some formers (such as vchowdhury) may be able to worship on Saturday without that cascade of subliminal reactions. Further, I do suspect that the day is less emotionally binding in those who were not life-long Adventists. In general, though, I believe the day is an issue for former Adventists because it was a spiritual bondage used to replace Christ. It was a symbol of heresy--replacing the Holy Spirit as the seal of God--just as eating meat offered to idols was a symbol of the heresy of worshiping false gods.
Praise God for the freedom to worship Him in spirit and in truth--on absolutely any (or every!) day of the week!
Colleen |
Vchowdhury1
Registered user
Username: Vchowdhury1
Post Number: 28
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 11:41 am: | |
Hoytster, In answer to your questions, I choose to join a Seventh-Day Baptist church because in all honesty, I really liked the church and the people, and I'm just used to going to church on Saturday. When I was growing up sda, I would go to church on Saturday, and on Sunday we would clean house, shop, mow the lawn, etc. Maybe I find it hard to mentally switch ALL THAT AROUND, via shop on Saturday, mow the lawn on Saturday, then wake up early Sunday morning and go to church, etc. AND, I'm used to being able to just relax and sleep in on Sunday. I guess, SWITCHING everything around would be difficult. It has NOTHING to do with the day that I think we should worship on. Believe me It has more to do with lifestyle and lifelong HABIT than anything else. There have been a few Sunday churches that I have visited and liked very much, and have thought about transitioning to. But, like i said, sometimes a life-long habit is hard to break. Also, I like the Seventh-Day Baptist church very much. The only thing they have in common with the sda church is Saturday worship, and NOTHING ELSE. They believe that your actions, beliefs, etc., are strickly between you and God. Whatever you eat, however you dress, your views about religion, etc. are between you, and the Lord. And they don't follow FALSE Prophets!! And, last but not least, the sermons, Bible studies, and Lesson Study books are Bible based ONLY. And, Susan, to answer your questions, I am in Southern California, and I attend the ALL NATIONS SEVENTH-DAY BAPTIST CHURCH located in Gardena, Calif. They are located on Western Ave., and Pastor Lambert Lynch is the pastor. I have visted several Sunday keeping churches and have thought several times about transitioning, but like i said, a lifelong habit is very hard to break 
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Vchowdhury1
Registered user
Username: Vchowdhury1
Post Number: 29
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 11:45 am: | |
Oh, Susan, to answer your other questions, yes I do get the "Sabbath Recorder"
--Valerie |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 481
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 1:35 pm: | |
Still sounds like "sabbathkeeping" vs "sundaykeeping". We who go to church on Sunday do not "keep" Sunday. Maybe it's just an old term from historical thinking as well, but having heard how "inferior" I am for "Sundaykeeping" for 5 years now, it's hard to think "sundaykeeping" churches are "joint heirs" to the "sabbathkeeper". Maybe it's just symantics. It seems to me that New Covanant scripture goes overboard to teach us to be one (in unity), and yet many Christians still try to differentiate themselves from "other" Christians by the labels. My church has both Saturday and Sunday services and I go when they have the best options for my middle school-aged son, since it makes no difference to me. But if he has a soccer game on Sunday morning, it's no big deal to go Saturday ... neither is it a big deal to NOT be in church on Sunday morning to play a soccer game. I understand what you are saying about "habits"...when I've gone to church on Saturday I usually feel I need to apologize for shopping on Sunday morning, of course, some of that is baggage because I know that some sabbathkeepers feel a great deal of pride to "desecrate" the "pope's false Sabbath" by shopping on Sunday morning. While everyone has baggage from one's own personal journey to where they are today, I think Hoyster's point might be that there is a huge brotherhood of Christianity one cuts oneselves off from if one eliminates one day to gather. I wait for the day we don't look for man-made labels to determine who we will worship with or when we will worship with fellow believers.
I just read this last night:
Ephesians 4:1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
Also...Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
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Pw
Registered user
Username: Pw
Post Number: 138
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 1:51 pm: | |
I loved how colleentinker put it. The Holy Spirit is the seal of God, not Sabbath keeping. Boy, that's a good one to use for any SDA who tries to convince you otherwise. |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 41
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 2:56 pm: | |
Also notice that we have been sealed (2 Cor 1:22; Eph 1:13; and Eph 4:30). We aren't awaiting some investigation to be completed. And Paul certainly wasn't talking about waiting 1800 or so more years until some new heavenly activity could start this process. These texts don't just counter the Sabbath is seal of God, they also counter the whole 1844/Sanctuary/IJ teaching. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 700
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 10:40 am: | |
Amen! |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 931
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 8:04 pm: | |
Valerie, I attended the Santa Barbara SDB church regurally for around six years. Then I had business that I had to be down that way twice per month. My apointments were always on Fridays so I'd get a motel and on Saturday mornings I'd attend the Montrose SDB church. Steve Crouch is the pastor. If I'm in that area on Saurday mornings I try to get over there for the service. Unfortunatelly the Santa Barbara church got too small and the group couldn't maintain the responsibiliy of keeping the congreation going. The minister got the opportunity to minister at a large SDB church Back East. I try to keep in contact with the friends I made at that congreation. It's been my experience that the SDB's are very gosple centered. I like attending there. I generally attend a local Lutheran church now. In fact, our minister frequently mentions missionary work that the Lutherans do in partership with the SDB church. |
Vchowdhury1
Registered user
Username: Vchowdhury1
Post Number: 30
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 1:57 pm: | |
Susan_2, what a coincidence! I too have visited the Montrose SDB Church. I really liked it, but it was a little to far to travel to from where I live. Colleen, you mentioned in one of your posts that the reason why some former sda's still attend non-sda "sabbath-keeping" churches could be because of the "subliminal fear of losing salvation if one abandons the day". I mentioned that I attend a seventh-day baptist church because it is convenient and still a habit to still attend church on Saturdays, but, just maybe, I have this problem of "sabbath guilt". But, how does one get over it? Is the answer just to step away on faith and attend a Sunday church despite of how one emotionally feels?? Because, with the help of the Lord, I don't want to continue to have "sabbath guilt". I've noticed, however, that it is getting a little better. I have been doing activities on Saturday's that I normally would have felt guilty about doing when I attended the sda church (even though most of the time that didn't stop me from doing it then anyway). Plus, I want to teach my 11 year old son that his salvation does not depend upon the day we go to church, but it does depend on our relationship with the Lord. I would like to teach him this by example. I would appreciate any suggestions and prayer from anyone.
--Valerie |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 41
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 2:40 pm: | |
For many years while I was still an SDA, I was confused about how to properly keep the Sabbath "post cross". It seemed everybody had a different set of rules, and most people that I knew said that post cross just meant it was a heart thing instead of a letter thing, and that's why everybody had a different idea of how to keep Sabbath, and that was okay. That didn't set right with me either, and I continued to have unsettled feelings about Sabbath and would feel guilty that I wasn't observing it properly whether or not I actually tried to observe it. When I finally read the "Sabbath in Christ" book, and I also read a book the Worldwide Church of God put out about the Sabbath no longer being binding, it was such a relief to see that it really was no longer an issue after all! From that point, it did not take long to have no more guilt about Sabbath! Of course, I was praying about all these issues over the years, and I'm sure God knew exactly what was needed, as well as the timing that was needed, to bring me to this point. I wish I had an answer for you about what to do with the feelings when they are not following along with what you now know. For me, once I truly understood it was not an issue, the feelings naturally followed. It was such a huge relief that I didn't have to worry about it and I was glad to toss that burden away! If you truly understand the Sabbath is not an issue, then keep doing what you're doing (recognizing all days are alike) and trust the Lord to take care of your feelings in His time. Maybe someone else will have something more helpful to say. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 706
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 4:30 pm: | |
Raven, what you wrote is very helpful. My experience was much like yours. I had to see Biblically how the Sabbath was no longer binding. Ratzlaff's book Sabbath in Christ is such a clear, detailed, thorough study of the subject. It was essential for me.
Once I understood that the Bible no longer required the Sabbath in any way (except as our continuous celebration of Christ's finished work 24/7), I did have some residual feelings of fear or guilt. We also began doing things gradually on that day, but we still saw it as "different"--quiet, or fun, but not like Sunday used to be for us. We finally had to simply act in our faith in the finished work of Christ and treat the day like we had treated Sunday--as a work day. What it amounted to was surrendering our tiny, lingering, conditioned fear that "they" might be right. We had to allow Jesus to replace that slight fear and act in faith despite our emotional resistance. Once we took that step--we were overwhelmed with the sense of God's presence on normal working days--a reality we had never experienced consistently before. Giving up Sabbath, for us, was the same type of thing (only in miniature!) as walking out of the church. It was a cliff we had to jump off by faith--and Jesus caught us as soon as our feet left the ground, so to speak.
He is faithful!
Colleen |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 571
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 5:02 pm: | |
It is really interesting how God works in each person's life. God started with me in 1979 when I started going out on Friday evenings, after my separation and divorce, and did not feel guilty. Then when I got chronic fatigue syndrome I had to work, but the only time I had to clean house and shop was on the weekend. I would do some on Sat and some on Sun. When I learned EGW was a false prophet I studied every thing on the internet web sites, with my Bible in hand, then with the Strong's Bible concordance, I studied the Sabbath. I was awed by the revelation of the truth. God is so good and so awesome. I often wondered why I did not feel so guilty about going out Friday nights. Now I know why.
Diana |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 932
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 9:19 pm: | |
Valerie, Please, let's corospond by e-mail. It is: susanan@webtv.net |
Vchowdhury1
Registered user
Username: Vchowdhury1
Post Number: 33
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 9:15 am: | |
Colleen & Raven, Amen and Thank you. Susan_2, I will e-mail you soon.
--Valerie |
Pw
Registered user
Username: Pw
Post Number: 142
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 10:04 am: | |
I never really had a good grasp on how to keep a Sabbath either. It was confusing to think we were supposed to rest that day but many SDA's still continued to cook for pot luck functions after service which I always considered work. Plus setting up and taking down tables and chairs was work too! But watching tv or playing the stereo was not allowed? I'm so glad those days are long gone in the past. |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 575
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 5:22 pm: | |
PW,
I agree, I am glad those days are long gone and in the past. It is so much nicer to rest in Jesus every day. Oh, no more waiting for sundown so I could do something "fun" on Sat evenings. Thank God for His rest. He is truly awesome.
Diana |
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