| Author | Message | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 40 Registered: 7-2004 |
My fiance' doesn't celebrate Easter. Instead, they join in the festivities and after hour parties of Oakwood College because it is their Alumni Weekend (homecoming). She has called Easter a pagan holiday much like Halloween. So hear are my questions for your insight. First, yes the festivities of Easter have gotten out of hand because of man made Easter hunts, and bunnies, etc. But has the purpose of Easter been forgotten? She doesn't celebrate Easter, but Christmas has its own festivities attached to it as well courtesy of Mr. Claus, and she waits impatiently for that day. I know SEVERAL Adventists that do the same. It seems as if actions contradict their belief. The entire day of Easter, her family didn't mention the Resurrection of Christ once. Is the magnitude of saturday sabbath so heavy that the Resurrection of Christ isn't celebrated because God happend to want it to fall on a Sunday? And if the sabbath is so compelling, then why didn't God send Christ a memo and instruct him to get up a day early? At what point does Christ exit this doctirine? Just my thoughts, I hope my ignorance doesn't offend, but I do too much research I think, and you all are the first people I can discuss my thoughts with because my familiy is in Missouri and getting a hold of them to share is difficult. So you all have inherited the slots of discussion that my parents hold when I cannot get in touch with them. | ||
| Vchowdhury1 Registered user Username: Vchowdhury1 Post Number: 22 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hrobinsonw, unfortunately in dealing with most sda's, there are many contradictions and discrepancies within the sda church, so I'm not surprised about your fiance and her family. For example, first you can't have a christmas tree, now you can. Then they faint when they hear the word "pork", but somehow its okay for these married sda's ministers to around with other women (even with the knowledge of their congregation), it's alright to celebrate Christmas but not Easter, Its okay to own an expensive car and live in a mansion but you can't wear jewelry because of "pride", you can't eat shrimp but you can gossip, They claim that the dead know not nothing and will sleep in the grave until Jesus comes but Ellen White in one of her visions claims to have seen Daniel, Abraham and a lot of other saints already in heaven. Ellen White claims that anyone who rejects the Sabbath is lost but when William Miller died never having accepted the Sabbath (he outright rejected it) she claims to have had a vision were she was "shown" that he will be saved! So go figure. The sda church is full of double talk and nonsense. It made my head spin so bad that I left the sda church after 35 years. Also, I like your comment about "If the Sabbath was so important, God should have sent Christ a memo to get up a day earlier". All through my studies of the New Testement, It seems that the Sabbath was not the most important issue in Christianity. It seems that "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind, love your neighbor as yourself, and obstain from any sexual immorality" seem to be the most important issues. Also, the bible says that the Holy Spirit will be the Seal of God's people in the last days. SDA's say that the Seal will be the 7th day sabbath. This is not biblical. Also, as you well know, during the times of Jesus and Paul, many people have come to them asking what should they do to be save? Jesus or Paul NEVER ONCE answered "Keep the 7th day Holy". | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 116 Registered: 7-2004 |
Vch 1... You are right on about SDA's (and other legalistic Christians) upholding their pet law yet treating their fellow man with disrespect and contempt (ie. eating shrimp is harmful but partaking in gossip is ok). SDA's believe they keep all the 10 Commandments. Jesus, in His Sermon on the Mount, gave specific guidelines. He began each thought with, "You have heard..." (Matt.5:21-48) SDA's have heard "You shall not commit murder" but have they been angry with their brother? YES! SDA's have heard "You shall not commit adultery" but have they looked at someone walking down the street and then taken a second look...? YES!! I think Jesus was talking specifically to legalistic Christians when He told the lawyer what the greatest Commandment was: "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND WITH ALL YOUR SOULS, AND WITH ALL YOU MIND...YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." Bottom line...the SDA church has been worried for so many years that they keep the Commandments so much better than anyone else they have completely missed the whole point of Christmas, Easter AND the Commandments. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 651 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hrob, you are touching on the heart of the matter when you say, "At what point does Christ exist in this doctrine?" The fact is, He doesn't. In typical Adventism, Jesus is like a ticket to Disneyland. You can't get into Disneyland unless you have a ticket, but you can have the ticket and still not get in--i.e., you can decide not to go, you can have an accident on the way there and miss out, etc. Jesus is the Adventist "ticket" to heaven. You have to have Him (although they're not sure what that means except an intellectual assent to His divinity and sacrifice), but if you refuse the "rest of the gospel" after having it made clear to you, you will still miss out. You're beginning to see the craziness of it, Hrob, and there is NO logical way to explain it. There's also no Biblical way to explain it. It's a false religion. Even the current subtext of "evangelicalism" among many laity and some pastors is deceptive. Many now talk of Jesus, of grace, of love and acceptance, of Sabbath and other rules having nothing to do with salvation. Yet at the same time, many of these people also say God cannot be both mete out justice and dispense mercy at the same time. They create a weak God whose justice is nearly non-existent. Sin, in this paradigm, is something we need not fear because Jesus has taken care of it, and God will not dispense wrath on humans since Jesus has died. Any way you look at it, Adventism cannot (I know that's a strong statement, but I believe it!) teach the true gospel. As long as a person admires EGW and sees her Great Controversy scenario as instructive, he will have a skewed picture of God. I'm not saying such a person cannot be saved, but I am saying they are not equipped to teach the true Biblical gospel, to answer people's questions fully, and to lead one to know the Bible and the truth of Jesus as He is revealed there. Sorry, I fear I've mounted my soapbox again-- Colleen | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 33 Registered: 7-2004 |
Colleen-- I'll go one step further. There is only one unique SDA doctrine, the Sanctuary/Investigative Judgment. This doctrine came from the error of putting an 1844 date on Christ's return. It is the only way out of that date setting that still left the believers as being "right" rather than in error. Without this doctrine there is no reason for the SDA to church to exist. There is no special date in Biblical prophecy to mark their emergence on the scene. There is no reason to conclude that they have the 3 Angels Message as their special, last day message to the world. EGW can not be a prophet if there is no sanctuary/IJ doctrine. And I don't see how you can reconcile the free gift of grace with a doctrine that says you will be investigated to determine if you have been sufficiently righteous to warrant granting eternal life. Recent history shows attempts to make the IJ look at "unconfessed sins" as the basis for eternal life. That is just lipstick on a pig. It still leaves the basis on the actions of the believer, rather than on the actions of Christ. SDAs can not teach the true Gospel of grace AND the IJ. Without the IJ there is no SDA church. Simple conclusion, the SDA church will never be able to teach the true Gospel. speaking of soapboxes... | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 32 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear Hrob, All I can do is recall my youth in the SDA church. I think the SDA's are a little more comfortable with Christmas because that was when they went Ingathering, which means they went house-to-house every holiday season caroling and collecting donations. This is going to sound cynical but as long as there was a monetary payoff the holiday was okay. Easter didn't have a payoff attached to it, so it was declared altogether pagan and then ignored. When I was a child we never had a Christmas tree in our house, and Easter was just another Sunday (in other words, clean up and get ready for the week to come day). By the time we were in our teens my sister and I imposed Christmas trees on the household and my mother grudgingly allowed it. She also threw the pagan thing away the day following Christmas. She allowed the tree because they had a tree in the church sanctuary. That tree was never decorated with ornaments, but had money tied to it. Ours was a small, very strict, very traditional Adventist community, but in its own way it was capable of loving and supporting its own. It was also interesting to watch it morph into a less traditional group with the addition of younger people and with each new pastor they sent our way. Anyway, it is possible that religious holidays are looked at as to whether or not the Adventist community itself can benefit from the holiday, and I'm not talking about spiritual benefit. When you are working for your place in heaven it's rather hard to be spiritual about things. You are working out a "sweat equity." | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 902 Registered: 11-2002 |
Reading this conversation is making me dizzy. Yes, trying to make sda doctrine match up with Bible makes me do a brainspin. I just think it all goes back to the founding of the denomination. The sda denomination was founded on deception and deception has been it's main consistant stronghold throughou the generations. Colleen, I really like your analagy of Jesus being like a ticket to get into Disneyland. The sda's know they need to have Jesus worked into their doctrine if they want to pass themselves off as Christian. They also know if they want to promote getting into heaven to people they somehow have to work Jesus into the plan. He is the ticket. But, it always goes back to the other rules of what has to be done and what cannot be done that is a higher pririty ticket. Do any of you out there remember back years ago Disneyland had tickets A,B,C,D, and E? The A tickets were for the really super awsome cool rides and then they graduated down until the E tickets were for riding the horse and carriage? Well, that is how I think of Jesus in the SDA church. The Sabbath is the A ticket. Pork is the B ticket. Sending your kids to sda schools and giving to all the different programs they want your money for is a C tickey. Then the D ticket would be not wearing jewlery, not attending movie theatres, not going to bowling alleys, going ingathering, you know, the do's and don't's and finily the E ticket is proclaiming Jesus as Lord and Saviour. Yep, I think I figured them out! | ||
| Krista Registered user Username: Krista Post Number: 14 Registered: 8-2004 |
Hrob, I agree with your feelings about Easter. I couldn't believe SDAs didn't celebrate such a beautiful and meaningful day! I still don't understand why and it seems so strange to me. After 2 years of being in the church (quitting soon) and not going to an Easter service, finally this year I went to a wonderful mega-church with my husband on Easter Sunday - what a great feeling! Vchowdhury1, or anyone else, can you find the texts where egw sees saints in heaven? Did she go there? I know she saw Enoch and talked with him but I didn't know about these other people, lol... Thx!! | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 643 Registered: 7-2000 |
Hrobinsonw, Another thing...Adventists believe that Christ "honored" the Sabbath Day by NOT rising on that day...but instead "rested" in the grave! I am continualy convinced to a greater degree of the falseness of Adventism. In fact, I'm convinced there is an anti-Christ spirit at the core of Adventist doctrines. Adventism has a very real spiritual force of darkness behind it...which is not readily apparent to most people outside of it, or even to those in their folds. But try to leave it after being in it and then speak of your completeness and sufficiency in Jesus Christ alone... There is where the true "spirit" of Adventism is revealed! And this spirit is definitely one that is against Jesus as being our only Hope, Rest, and Assurance. grace always, cindy | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 644 Registered: 7-2000 |
Susan, Great illustration! I still have one of those antique Disneyland A,B,C,D,& E ticket books, one that my brother had kept for years and then sent me a few years ago... in memory of old times sake! Living quite close to Disneyland, we used to go often when we were kids. grace always, cindy | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 30 Registered: 7-2004 |
My "Sunday Keeping" mother in law could never understand why my son was never with us on Easter Sunday. She had a wonderful Sunday dinner and it was a special day just like Thanksgiving Day. But guess where he went year after year on Easter? A Pathfinder campout! They planned it for Easter! I think that is reprehensible. They certainly didn't mention the Lord's resurrection up there. We also celebrated Christmas to the full extent as a child. But Easter was taboo. I believe this is because it falls on Sunday and is the "Sunday keepers" reason for worshipping on that day. | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 41 Registered: 7-2004 |
I spent the wee hours of the night discussing with my mother and father about Galatians. Based off of one of the pamphlets that I took from Ratzlaff's site. I looked deeper and found this. The church of Galatia was much like SDA with the ticket scenario(thanks Colleen). These Judaizers turned the church from New Covenant and Jesus Christ solely, into accepting Christ along with the Commandments of Moses, mainly circumcision. It painted many pictures for me. In acutality, SDA's existed since Christ but really culminated after his death. Follow me on this, and I pray that I don't get lost in the typing. The book of Acts came around 51 years after the death of Christ. Galatians was around 51-53 years after Christ. Issues of Jewish custom versus Christianity were fresh by the time Galatia began to turn away. Paul founded the church, but they didn't keep the doctirine for long. People from the outside began permeating the congregation with false hood. But this letter to Galatia, makes a the rest of the new testament clear. Especially 1 Timothy. Paul was blatantly upset as he was writing this letter. And his gift, since he was small in stature was his ability to use powerful words. He wasn't a down south baptist minister turning back flips and hooping and hollering. But his words chosen carefully impacted the paper that they were written on. These people in Galatia were weak. The common denominator in Galatia since both Acts and Galatians were written around the same time is the subjects. Galatia is supposedly in northern Turkey. These people had no gospel. So you couldn't expect them to have the tutiledge that the Old Covenant gave. But that is the essence of Christ. The Gentiles, since they weren't given the constant tutoring of the Old Covenant, were ushered into the promise of the New Covenant under Christ. But the foundation wasn't there. Jesus takes time to work through you like cough syrup. The immediate impact will soothe your throat. But after about 30 minutes you feel completely better. Jesus will give immediate salvation and Holy Spirit impact. But over time you become strengthened and grow from children to adults. Those Judaizers knew that the Galatians were very young in Christ, and they blatantly imposed there will upon them. I see that in alot of SDA converts that I am around. I know so many people ESPECIALLY females that were greatly tramatized in their lives. I tried to present them with Chirst. They would feel great at church with me, but once they left it was different. They went to an SDA church and heard dynamic motivational messages of self esteem and they joined the SDA congregation. I feel as if I failed. It was similar to that in Galatia. These were Christians ripe for the taking. Which is why 1Timothy 4 has so much significance. 2 months ago I assumed that Paul was just prophesying to Timothy in regards to the people to come. But I now know that he was speaking from experience. The Galatian church is a prime example of Paul's letter to Timothy. | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 177 Registered: 10-2001 |
I didn't have any of these experiences. We had easter eggs, chocolate, christmas tree, Easter Cantata every year at church, passion play too. Boy, yall were weirder adventists than me! Of course, the choir director left her husband and ran off with one of the members, who also left his wife, so that could be why she wanted so many "programs". I even remember easter egg hunts and stuff at church. I don't even care much for all that today, we downplay it here and focus on the ressurrection. It is the cooles thing to me to go to church on Easter, I always wanted to when I was a kid, and then we always have a big ham for lunch! Aint life good? | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 42 Registered: 7-2004 |
Ok, now I am discusisng Peter. Through all of is overwhelming action for Jesus Christ. And he was a God fearing individual through Jesus Christ, he still had an interesting flaw. I see him like many Pastors today. He knew what was right. He will openly vow his allegiance, but yet still he denied Christ 3 times. Later in Acts 15, he verifies the mission to the Gentiles, and decrees the neccessary commandments for gentiles to follow as well as declare that gentiles aren't to place that yoke upon themselves. But one on one when it is him versus Jewish brass, he wilts under pressure. He did with Christ. And he did it again in Galatians will Paul had to publicly chastise him for living a double life. Not I am not criticising Peter's Christianity because he was human. I just found it interesting. | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 31 Registered: 7-2004 |
That is interesting, Hrobinson. Peter seems to be put in the Bible just to let us know that we are all humans, and the disciples were too! Galations is a wonderful book. I love it. Sabra, now I do remember having some chocolate Easter bunnies now and then, but my mother now regrets the "pagan" celebrations that she partook in. That's great that you got to have some celebration at church. I don't think they do that much anymore. Maybe the "celebration" churches do. It just reminds me so much of JW's to totally ignore holidays and celebrations. I think God wants us to celebrate. I'm glad the Christians took pagan holidays and made them into Christian holidays. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 654 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hrob, great insights. You really are beginning to understand Adventism! Great observations about Peter, too. Colleen | ||
| Vchowdhury1 Registered user Username: Vchowdhury1 Post Number: 23 Registered: 7-2004 |
Krista, In "A Word to the Little Flock", 1847, EGW wrote this in regards to one of her so called visions. . . "In a moment we were winging our way upward, and entering in; here we saw good old father Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Daniel, and many like them. And I saw a vail with a heavy fringe of silver and gold, as a border on the bottom; it was very beautiful. I asked Jesus what was within the vail. He raised it with his own right arm, and bade me take heed. I saw there a glorious ark, overlaid with pure gold, and it had a glorious border, resembling Jesus' crowns; and on it were two bright angels--their wings were spread over the ark as they sat on each end, with their faces turned towards each other and looking downward..." So you see, EGW claims to have seen dead saints already in heaven in her vision. You can get more information about this vision on the website: www.ellenwhite.org, under the supressed visions/writings link. If anyone else in the forum has any insights about this, please let me know. --Valerie | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 43 Registered: 7-2004 |
Colleen, thanks to yall I am getting a handle on Adventism. And Peter is cool with me. It is like, your entire life you think that the people of the Bible were unflappable. I mean except for the 3 denials, but Christ was good with it so you looked past it. Bible study is so much more than the words. I was praying this morning that God would allow me to look underneath his rock which is the living word. I asked him for wisdom to understand the rock as well as everything surrounding it. And he is doing so. So many people will quote memory verses and ABSOLUTELY change doctrine of millions of people. Memory verses lead to interpretation issues. Reading the Bible in its entirety like a novel leads to comprehension. Then you can research around it. Right now I am trying to get the feel of the people of the Galatian church. I want to know more teachings of those Judaizers. Had they been given the Bible like we have it today, thinks may have been different. Then, they pretty much got it word of mouth. I don't want to be an individual that reads and understands and blatantly turns away from what I know. I feel like my fiance's father has done that. He has a masters in divinity, so he knows and understands the word of God well. But he turns away from it and teaches another doctrine, much like the Judaizers did the galatians. This entire process is bringing me closer to God. And I am happy for it. Oh, by the way, my mother wants me to burn her copies of the sermons from your church, Colleen. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 8 Registered: 8-2004 |
Some have said that she was seeing the future perhaps. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 33 Registered: 7-2004 |
Just an observation, but do you think even we will ever get beyond filtering our knowledge through what Ellen White said? As long as we have loved-ones ensnared in the beliefs of the SDA church we will have to deal with this woman who has been dead for almost a century. I get so angry when I stop to think that there are people within SDAism who know the fallacies being espoused in her name, but because they are dependent on the income from the organization they are willing to turn their backs on the Living Christ and teach lies. There are also many sincere believers, ministers and church workers among them, that are taken advantage of by these same perpetrators. Which of these would be the blind guides that Jesus spoke of? |
