| Author | Message | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 454 Registered: 7-2003 |
I'm thankful my church isn't that way, Pw. The only mention of tax receipts comes with making sure your number is on the check. If you want the church to print a tax receipt at year end, they have assigned numbers to make sure the correct account gets credited, but other than that, it's never mentioned. I've heard others say taking the tax deduction is wrong, but I see it as being a good steward just as I take the deductions for daycare or mortgage interest. The tax deduction is a legal allowance, I don't give to get the deduction, but it is a benefit at the same time...which seems part of God's blessing back to me. I know others who don't take the deduction. Seems again how your conscience convicts you. Charles Swindoll did a great lesson today on legalists. I don't think he had SDAs in mind, but he could have. He talks about some of the texts that legalists can't deal with and it was right on...particularly when it comes to grace. | ||
| Sheryl Registered user Username: Sheryl Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2004 |
Thank you all for the warm welcome!! I miss interacting with other believers. I hope that nobody misinterprets my posts as slamming the SDA church, my only mention of these things is to just communicate truth. I pray for others still in that particular denomination. I look forward to discussing issues with all of you. I praise God that this forum exists, and for the ways that He reaches each and every one of his own. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 512 Registered: 3-2004 |
Sheryl, We have all said things about the SDA church due to the experiences we have been through. Some experiences have not been very nice and some experiences hurt. There has to be a place we can talk about those experiences and this is a very good place because we all understand. Vent all you want. It is better then holding it all in. We will not criticize you as all of us have done it. Welcome again to FAF. We do care about you here. Diana | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 123 Registered: 6-2004 |
Flyinglady is right. Coming out of the SDA is a difficult experience. I was only involved for a year but it was enough to confuse me about various topics. I can only imagine how much harder it is for those who were raised in the SDA movement. However, no matter how long we were involved, we share a common bond....one that was broken by Christ! | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2004 |
Dennis, I found your post about the tithing system in Israel intriguing. You mention that the ordenary Israelite gave his tithe every third year to the Levites. What did he do with it the other two years? helovesme2 | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 518 Registered: 3-2004 |
Helovesme2,Are you new to FAF? Will you tell us something about yourself. Welcome to FAF. This is a place to recover from having been in the SDA church. Diana | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 151 Registered: 4-2000 |
Helovesme2, By the way, I like your moniker. Every third and sixth year in the sabbatical cycle (seven years), the tithe was reserved for the needy such as the widows, widowers, foreigners, fatherless, etc. Interestingly, every seventh year of this seven-year cycle, the land was left fallow (to rest one year)to enhance the soil. Owners of crops would only need to tithe from what grew by itself during this year. They still needed to tithe the tenth animal that came "under the rod." If the rancher's increase consisted only of eight or nine animals, he was legally exempt from tithing. Part of the tithe was to be eaten by the tither as well. Ironically, Christians are told that eating the tithe is forbidden. Unfortunately, many Christians are taught that eating the tithe is symbolic of keeping it for themselves. The tithe is not money. Biblically, it is an edible substance, such as grain, wine, oil, and animals. On the contrary, money is never eaten, salted, baked, etc. How many tithers today get to "eat" their tithe, or share in the tithe, as was originally intended? How many people get to "taste" their monetary tithe, or get a full stomach? Furthermore, how can one "redeem" monetary tithe? Matthew 23:23 is mistranslated in the King James Version. The word "pay" is inserted that gives a wrongful, monetary connotation. Notice that the Pharisees were meticulously tithing unimportant crops; namely, spices and herbs--NOT salaries or business income. The Pharisees, as tithaholics, were not tithing with money. The Malachi 3 injunction was all about food, not money as well. There is yet another surprise that most Christians fail to understand. In actual fact, the Temple in Jerusalem did not get the bulk of its income for operation from the tithe that the Israelites gave on their farm produce and herds. Moses also legislated that the Temple itself was to be (in a primary sense) funded from the giving of a half-shekel by every adult male in Israel. In Jesus' day, the Temple was responsible for bringing into Jerusalem huge quantities of monies and other contributions from Jews and even Gentiles from around the Roman and Parthian worlds. Note the words of Titus the Roman general (and later emperor) in a speech to the Jews before the fall of Jerusalem. He called attention to the riches of the Jews at the time and how the Romans had helped them to secure those riches: "We [Romans]have given you leave to gather up that tribute which is paid to God [the Temple tax], with such other gifts that are dedicated to him: nor have we called those that carried these donations to account, nor prohibited them; till at length you became richer than we ourselves, even when you were our enemies" (Josephus, Wars, VI.6,2). This tribute was the annual half-shekel payment for the upkeep of the Temple which each Jewish male from twenty years of age upward had to pay each year. This money was collected from various sites all over the Roman Empire and conveyed in many instances under guard of the Romans themselves to the Temple treasury in Jerusalem. This tribute alone amounted to an enomous sum annually. It amounted to each adult male giving approximately two-days wages. With between 3 and 4 million Jewish males who would pay the tribute each year, this would amount to about $500 million U. S. dollars just for the half-shekel tribute alone. That is alot of money! It was the Sanhedrin at the Temple in Jerusalem that set the value of the half-shekel each year. The value was determined by the value of the animal sin offerings each year (Skekelim II.4). If the value of sin offering animals went up because of a scarcity, then the Sanhedrin would require more of the common currency to equal the amount of the shekel at the Temple. The standard of value was set by the Temple authorities so that God would have the same amount being given to the Treasury each year no matter what the value of coinage (either inflated or deflated). Whatever the case, there were great quantities of money coming into Jerusalem each year and this helped make the economy of Judaea and Jerusalem a very prosperous one. That wealth, however, came to an abrupt end with the destruction of Jerusalem in A. D. 70. George Foot Moore, in his work on Judaism (one of the recognized authorities on Jewish religion in the time of Christ) had the following to say about the law of the tithe in Leviticus 27: "All of these applied in the letter of the law only to the land of Israel, however, at any time it boundaries might be defined" (Judaism in the First Centuries of the Christian Era, vol. II, p. 71). Produce from non-authorized lands were considered impure and not holy enough to support the Levitical priesthood in its function at the holy Temple. As Edersheim records, even the very dust of heathen lands was reckoned as defiled (Life and Times, vol. I, p. 9). This is why tithe was not acceptable from them. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 520 Registered: 3-2004 |
Dennis, I really do appreciate your articles about the tithe. I first read about the tithe from a Jewish Bible that a brother uses. I wanted to see something in the Bible and it fell open to the book in the OT telling about the tithe and how God wanted it done. Looking back on it, God was showing me that the SDAs were incorrect in that. So thank you for enlightening my mind about the tithe. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 632 Registered: 12-2003 |
I agree, Dennis. Thank you. You know more about this subject than anyone I've heard! Colleen | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2 Registered: 8-2004 |
Hi Flyinglady, Just changed my username, I've been here awhile. Thanks for the welcome! Dennis, Thank you for elucidating further! I'd found the 'third year of the tithe' from my own research, but have not found how it fit into the seven year cycle. (Guess I need to look at the seven year and seventy year cycles). What I'd understood to happen was that two out of every three years the people were to take their tithes up to "the place God would show them" and there celebrate the blessings He had given them (Deuteronomy 14:22-23 among other texts), not forgetting to share with the levites; then every third year (Deuteronomy 14:28-29) the tithe was to be put in storage so the local levite, stranger (!), widow, etc. "may come and eat and be satisfied" (NIV). I'd somehow gotten the idea that two years out of every three the tithe went to 'the place the LORD will show you', and the third year it was put in storage 'in your towns'. I'm still trying to figure it out! helovesme2 | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 152 Registered: 4-2000 |
CHANGING TITHING CODES When the Israelites arrived at the Temple, Moses commanded them to do something with their tithe that they were not allowed to do while in the wilderness. They could now use part of their tithe to rejoice before God at the central sanctuary. They were also to share it with the Levites (Deut. 14:27). While formerly, only the Levites were to be given all tithes, now it was different. In a seven year sabbatical period, the first, second, fourth, and fifth years were times when the tither himself could eat of the tithe at the Temple with the Levites having only a share. But in every third and sixth year, the tithe was to be kept in the Israelite's own home area. In those years the tithe was not to be brought to the central sanctuary but given to the Levites and needy peoples located in communities throughout the country (Deut. 14:28,29). Look at what this meant. Every third and sixth year of a seven year sabbatical period were the only times that Levites got the full tithe (with the exception of that part of the tithe which went to the fatherless, strangers and widows, that is, to those who were destitute). This system was most equitable. What must be clearly understood about this tithing plan devised by Moses is that there was only one tithe being discussed. It was one tithe being used differently in the various years of a sabbatical cycle. There was no so-called "second" or "third" tithe in the plan of Moses. To find reference to those extra "second" or "third" tithes, one has to leave the Bible and consult the opinions of various Jewish interpreters who (after the Babylonian Captivity, when so much previous knowledge from the Bible had been lost) became so strict that THEY INVENTED A SECOND AND THIRD TITHE TO SHOW AN EXCESSIVE "RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Tobit 1:7ff; Josephus, Antiquities, IV, 240). The so-called second and third tithes were devised through traditional concepts, and not from heeding the biblical commands of Moses. Churches who apply such teaching today are in no way following the biblical teachings of Moses. Jesus and his disciples were supported by private funds from those who believed in his mission. Jesus was not a Levitical Priest and he could not legally receive tithe. The Book of Hebrews makes a major point of this. "It is evident that our Lord sprang out of Judah; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood" (Heb. 7:14). Christ had to use personal monies for his work--not tithe. Jesus did not concentrate on getting money. While he was preaching he admitted that he was so poor that "the Son of man hath not where to lay his head" (Matt.8:20). He was in poverty. "Though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich" (2 Cor. 8:9). And poor he was. He did not have enough money to pay the half shekel for the upkeep of the Temple (Matt. 17:24-27). And note this. He never had an over-abundance of finanical support. On one occasion Christ had about 5000 people following him (John 6:10). Had he taken as little as ten cents a day from each of them (far less than a tithe), he would have had $500.00 a day in our money for the use of himself and his twelve disciples. But our Lord took not a penny from anyone at this early date. Indeed, he did just the opposite. He multiplied five barley loaves and two small fishes into enough food to feed the 5000. He was more interested in giving people something than taking something from them. And as said before, both he and Peter were so "broke" that a fish had to fetch a shekel in order for them to meet their financial obligations to support the Temple. The criterion that guided the mission of Christ in the matter of finances can best be summed up by Christ's own words: "Freely have ye received, freely give" (Matt. 10:8). The work was done by faith, supported by the free will contributions of God's people. Christians have successfully accomplished (by being legally "in Christ") all the duties that God ever gave in a ritualistic sense for people to observe on earth. We are no longer accounted as physical Israelites, physical Jews or even physical Gentiles (Col. 3:10,11). Christians are now reckoned as a part of the divine Family of God (I John 3:1,2) and we are already "in Christ" reigning in the heavens in the eyes of the Father. Sabbaths, holy days, rituals are not necessary for the members of that divine Family to which we belong--and that includes no more tithing to Levites and no more tithing to Christian ministers (John 5:17,18). Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 523 Registered: 3-2004 |
It looks to me, after learning about tithe as God first wanted it done, that churches use it as a "scam". I cannot think of any other word to use. Thank God He has taught me different since the first of this year. Diana | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 30 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dennis-- Thanks for the great posts. I remember many moons ago when I first decided to "just read" about tithing in the OT. The first thing that struck me was that tithe wasn't just an income source for the Levites but a way of helping less fortunate in your community. The second thing that struck me was that the giver participated in consuming the tithe. The giver literally "shared" the tithe. | ||
| Sheryl Registered user Username: Sheryl Post Number: 16 Registered: 5-2004 |
I am struggling with this issue at times. Giving tithes seems to be heavily emphacized by many ministries. The SDA church was no different. I have looked over many verses to determine for myself what God has to say about it. I wanted to make sure that I am seeking truth for truth's sake and not trying to get out of giving of my finances due to being selfish. I understand that churches and ministries do not run with out financial help, but feel that using the doctrine of tithes ensures a certain amount for budgeting. I don't believe that the ten percent is found in the New Testament, SDA's focus on Malichi a lot. I believe God wants us to give to him joyfully, not grudgingly. I feel condemnation internally over the tithe issue because I listen to Christian programming a lot and always hear about the tithe and feel I am not a good Christian and am now reaping the results financially because of it. Maybe I am imagining this, but it bothers me, is anyone else feeling this way? | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 153 Registered: 4-2000 |
GRACE GIVING When Christians decide to give, their gifts should not be governed with respect to what to give, how to give, when to give, to whom to give, and definitely not how much to give. Christians should especially refuse instructions on giving when under the guise of tithes and offerings. This is when Spirit-led giving becomes hostage to old covenant rules and regulations. Instead, giving should be decided according to each person's own ability and with the help of the Holy Spirit. The initial desire to give should be completed by following through with the charitable act, thereby pleasing God. The Bible shows that individuals ought to give according to their ability, not according to someone else's ability, a previously written rule or regulation, or a man-made tradition or custom. The Bible makes it clear that giving should be Spirit-led. Grace giving is another freedom we have in Christ. The ministry of Bob George, Founder/Director of PEOPLE TO PEOPLE radio ministries (www.realanswers.net) in Texas, is an excellent example of Christian stewardship. Bob has an excellent discernment between law and grace (new covenant/old covenant). Bob's international ministries and large church are living testimonies for grace giving. They correctly view tithing as a part of legalism. His project manager, Richard Pfeifer, is a former SDA minister. Other Christian radio and television ministries would be wise to emulate this successful outreach for Christ. By the way, don't delay in logging unto their website. You will be blest! Under the old covenant, God largely dictated the amount his people gave. However, under the new covenant, Jesus allows US to determine the amount as we are led by His indwelling Spirit. As Christ-followers, we are not dependent upon the directives of Moses to finance the Great Commission. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 524 Registered: 3-2004 |
Dennis, I really like what you write about tithing. That is the one thing I get twinges of conscience about. Where I am attending church now they collect an offering, but do not say anything about the needs of the church. Because of my job situation, where the income was not consistent, I knew God understood when I could not give. Now I will be getting a consistent income and I will pray about what to give and to whom. I do want to be a cheerful giver. Again, thanks for explaining tithing. Diana | ||
| Madelia Registered user Username: Madelia Post Number: 78 Registered: 2-2003 |
Dennis, Thanks so much for your postings on tithing. I really liked how you talked about Jesus "giving" rather than "getting", using the loaves and fishes as an example. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 34 Registered: 7-2004 |
I am just getting caught up on the reading on this topic of tithe. The teaching in the NT that I remember most came from Paul (of course) and at present I cannot give you book, chapter and verse, but he did mention that he worked to maintain himself and those with him while on his missionary journeys. He also told those he wrote to that if they were taught, they should contribute to the teacher. He didn't tell them how much to give, but he did mention that they should participate by giving and thus being in community with the teacher. I think that is the only real TN mention of giving other than Jesus' ridiculing of the Pharasees for measuring out mint and dill, but leaving the elderly in their own families destitute. Jesus expanded the obligation to include taking care of our own families so that the cost of their care would not fall upon the communities. I like Paul's position on giving. If you feel you have benefitted from the teaching, please contribute in order to keep the teaching alive. This is not an obligation. It feels more like a celebration to me. I know that when I have derived a benefit from learning something I can't keep myself from helping to spread that information around. It is something I am happy to do. Thank you, Dennis, for clarifying what constituted tithe and what constituted temple tax. When I attend lectures about how to operate a computer, or stitch a seam, or build a fence--whatever, I have to pay to attend that lecture, up front. Attending a lecture about the glories of heaven and the free gift of grace also require a place for the meeting to be held, a person to speak, and any other supporting costs such as electricity for lights and air conditioning. It doesn't pain us to pay for a secular lecture, so it shouldn't pain us to learn of spiritual things. It's too bad that as SDA's we have painful memories of being drubbed about tithes so often that giving to the church now has uncomfortable programming mixed into "joyous giving" opportunities. My husband, who is Presbyterian, has been reading "The Purpose Driven Life" and has a tendency to view Rick Warren's book with the same reverence as SDA's view EGW writings. Rick makes it clear that he feels that Christians have a tithing obligation. Jim lost his job a couple of weeks ago and he's wondering how he will pay his tithe. I have to remind him over and over that tithe is based on increase. He's not obligated until he has an increase to pay on. All I'm trying to say is that it is very human to want to have a formula for living written down for us so we can play the game by the rules. Grace in Christ isn't based on a list of rules for living other than to behave toward one another with Christ-like love until He calls us home. For a lot of people that is too loose-ended. It allows for too much thinking for one's self. | ||
| Dane Registered user Username: Dane Post Number: 29 Registered: 4-2004 |
The church we attend takes the position that tithing is Old Covenant. As New Covenant people we are to give out of our joy and love with the amount being determined by the individual. This is a two year old church that started with about 60 members planted by three other area churches. Now we have an average of 1600 in attendance. In just 2 years! We are always several thousand over our weekly budget without the concept of tithing. The people give as they are prompted by the Spirit. Dane | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 647 Registered: 7-2000 |
Dane, Sounds like a great church; where is it? One of the reasons we quit going to a large "Foursquare" denominational church was that they started promoting tithe as a requirement, albeit in a kind way..."you must tithe or at least be moving towards it" were the words used. We have being blessed attending a different church now, one that sees tithing as Old Covenental. One that realizes that in Christ we are now under the liberty and guidance of the Holy Spirit on what to give. grace always, cindy |
