| Author | Message | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 1 Registered: 9-2004 |
I am non-denom. The young man I am seeing has worshipped at my church for almost year now but has no intentions (so far) in leaving.. Doesn't really care about the "free-spritedness" of my church but does enjoy the messages. He also speaks in tongues now as he was baptized in the Holy Spirit now like Acts 2. This man loves the Lord. His heart is soo in the right place. What was the light bulb that made you realize SDA was inappropriate? And for the record, I have also attended his church on Saturdays for about a year. They NEVER bring up Ellen White or her teachings, so I need other responses that he would relate to. Unless you think it's still valid points. (he does have a couple of her books-- Doesn't read The Clear Word Bible.) Although a major point is that the roots of the church are false and those same roots have to be pulled up and out of him. And unless he leaves, we don't have a chance to be married and that concerns both of us. But the most important thing is that he comes into the full gospel truth. | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 57 Registered: 5-2004 |
Tracey, I understand your concerns and welcome to the forum! Does he hold onto Adventism because it makes him feel safe? Somehow, that they have the truth and so he's still part of the fold even though he's open to visit other churches? This is something to watch for. Many SDA's don't realize how much of a hold it has on them until they're confronted with having to give it up. Would he give up EGW, or the Sabbath, for Christ? Is he open to seeing that the law is fulfilled in Christ? Does he trust Christ for his salvation only... or when you ask him what he must do to be saved, does he admit Christ, but then add a long string of what you must believe? Unfortunately, Adventists can go through periods of "backsliding" (as other Adventists would call it) where they seem more open minded and grace based, but when they again start to feel convicted about what they grew up believing...they can have a very hard time accepting anything else. I really think that until an Adventist really addresses the issues for themselves, and understands the place of the law and grace, they are always liable to slip back into the system. And, for most, when they truly, honestly address the issues, they find that God leads them out of the system sooner or later. I will add you to my prayers! That the Holy Spirit will impress truth on him, and that he can rely entirely on Jesus for salvation and rest. Praise God for His Son... and truth in Him! | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 466 Registered: 7-2003 |
Tracey, I don't know how many thread's you have read, but I am also in your shoes, or was. It's hard to define where I am now. I have dated an SDA for 5 years this month...or did....not sure where we are now. We have the same dilemna as you. Unless and until he is willing to leave the SDA religion, on his own, because he knows in his core it is the right thing to do, the relationship is at a dead end. For me, it has nothing to do with false roots, it has to do with a false gospel. The greatest heartbreak is that there is not one thing that will turn the light on. I have spent years quoting nothing but scripture in context to show errors in the doctrines and teachings, but because I am "deceived" by the fact I am not an SDA, I'm not given any credibility. What opens a person's eyes, as I've heard on here and read in other books is only the willing heart to hear the Holy Spirit. I hated that answer the first time someone said it to me, and every one I have repeated it to can't comprehend there is not a key verse or teaching, but that is what deceipt is... it's subtle and masked in enough right words, that it sounds true. I admire you for being able to get him to attend church with you. B would never do that with me. He needs to go to wal-mart on Sunday mornings. There are other strings here that can give my particular story in more detail, and if you're interested, I'll figure out which ones. I know you want a quick fix answer. I did. At some level I still love B and in a very small quiet space in my heart I suspect I still hope that someday.... But in the meantime, I've had to get on about the task of living day in/out without him as a part of my every day or my future. I didn't feel I could do what the Lord had for me to do and still hold such a strong hope for unity there. I would highly recommend several books out by former SDAs to help you recognize some of the errors within the religion that you may not recognize off the top. I'm sure God will guide your path as he has done for each of us non-formers, who find ourselves here. If you have any questions, please ask. There is safety here and understanding of what you're experiencing. | ||
| Madelia Registered user Username: Madelia Post Number: 83 Registered: 2-2003 |
Tracey, I have to say "ditto" to what Melissa has posted above. When I met my husband, he was SDA, but sort of "backslidden". I did end up joining the church; I can't help but think if I would have had access to the internet in 1993, I would have had some resources to help me realize what a mistake that was. My experience has been that with having two children, my husband wants to bring them up in the "Truth". Even though the SDA church you've attended with your boyfriend may not blatantly quote Ellen White, I would venture to guess it's still there in subtle ways. I agree with Melissa: an SDA needs an open and willing heart. My husband doesn't have that. All I can do is pray and try to be as loving as I can. I will keep you in my prayers. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 660 Registered: 12-2003 |
Tracey, welcome to the forum. What Esther and Melissa have said is completely true. Nothing can cause the light bulb to go on in an Adventist's head except the Holy Spirit in a heart willing to know Truth. There really is no "magic bullet" or text or fact. And, as Esther has said, unlss they truly search for themselves because of their own internal desire to know, they will slip back towards Adventism even if they seem to venture out for a while. Other threads have also discussed the fact that there is a spiritual power behind Adventism that has a claim on the heart of every Adventist--not by conscious choice necessarily, but by virtue of belonging to it. For an Adventist to truly seek to discover the Truth, he has to choose Jesus over anything else--and that means choosing Jesus over even what he deeply believes is truth. It's very frightening, and it requires one to trust Jesus in a way that means being willing to give up everything he thinks he is for the sake of knowing Him. Leaving Adventism means being willing to allow the Holy Spirit to replace the very real spirit of Adventism in one's heart. Adventism is not just an intellectual misunderstanding or a mis-reading of doctrine or scripture. Adventism has a spiritual claim on its members' hearts. That's the reason it's so very hard to help one "see the light". The only thing you can do that really works is pray for him and be willing to discuss Scripture prayerfully with him when he asks questions. I also recommnd some of the books to which Meslissa referred--more for your understanding than his, although if he were open, they would be very helpful to him. I recommend "Discovering the New Covenant" by Greg Taylor, "Cultic Doctrine of Seventh-day Advenitst" by Dale Ratzlaff, and "Sabbath in Christ" by Ratzlaff. Thee are available through Dale's website, www.ratzlaf.com. With prayers for you, Colleen | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 2 Registered: 9-2004 |
I sure do appreciate your reply. I have ordered Sabbath in Christ and C. said he wants to read it. Esther, I do think he feels safe.. Very much so, but he stated to me that most importantly is not what his family thinks, but what God thinks. I personally believe that He could backslide back into them if he left also unless, like you stated, he seeks the truth for himself. I am finished talking and discussing frankly. He has the baptism of the Holy Spirit, speaks in tongues and this tells me that he is very open to God and the things of God available to all of us. But that openness to the Holy Spirit that he has helps me believe He wants God for real, not a religion. He considers himself a christian first, not an SDA. But yes, he will proudly state that he is a sabbath keeper. And to your question, does he believe Christ is all he needs? No, of course not. But God also saw his heart and filled him anyway! Maybe he's on his way, but our "discussions" have stopped. We are seeking the Lord for ourselves now and the direction for us as individuals. He wanted us to study EGW and compare to the bible.. and I would not learn her teachings just to discredit what I already know.. Plus, it's been done and why reinvent the wheel. I will present the materials that I found on Dale's website.. C. loves the Lord, no doubt about it. a good hearted gentle man, but you are right -- Unless he studies it for himself, he may backslide into it again, in spite of the supernatural experiences in God that he has had. Madelia, I know it! the internet has been a blessing! I will keep you in my prayers also and my prayer is that your hubby reaches the openess that C. has to the full gospel truth. One other thing, even though SDA is wrong, I have met some wonderful people that love the Lord and what I believe are truly saved people. Melissa -- yes, it's so subtle, b/c I researched on an SDA site to make sure waht I was getting into and it said nothing that I wasn't already believing in! If I had done an even deeper research, I know that I wouldn't have even let him take me out on our first date frankly. Un like you, I have credibility with him, b/c he really likes me to pray and his prayerlife has increased and being amazing as a result of us doing so together. He also knows that the Lord speaks to me in dreams and some have come to pass since we started dating. He trusts that the Lord is in my life in a real way. But as you said, there's nothing I can say that will "make" him, he has to know the roots are false to want to leave for himself. Thank you for your words and taking the time to share with me. Colleen -- I understand that there is no lightbulb..And that if the HOly Spirit doesn't change his heart, it won't stick. He doesn't want to lose me and nor I him, but if he does it for the wrong reasons, he will revert and the spirit of this thing will deepen its roots. I def. don't want that! Thank you for telling me these things and taking the time for my situation. I will trust God as we "separate" to seek the Lord. I printed some works from Dales' site that i will give to him also. The Lord is leading me to address the root of the religion first rather than the disagreement over the sabbath. So the things I am giving him are related to false teachings.. With Love, and many thanks!! I will keep you posted!! | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 3 Registered: 9-2004 |
Esther, you ask, Is he open to seeing that the law is fulfilled in Christ? He believes this, yes.. but argues it doesn't mean "Mosaic law is done away with" Does he trust Christ for his salvation only... or when you ask him what he must do to be saved, does he admit Christ, but then add a long string of what you must believe? He again, says yes, but says, we should follow the 10 commandments.. This is the extent of his argument. That the 10 Comm. are God's word and are not contradictory or done away with. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 467 Registered: 7-2003 |
That is pure doublespeak. If Christ is all you need, BUT...., then Christ is not all you need. Like you, I wish I had known earlier, but I'm here now. I've read all the books Colleen mentioned and then some. Though i asked B to read them, he has only managed 1 in 3 years. He completely disagreed with it saying Dale doesn't use the scripture correctly. Be ware, SDAs think they have a corner on Biblical interpretation. If you agree with them, you're competent. If you don't, you are wrong, no discussion. B and I no longer talk about these things either. The wall that exists is incredible. It's like we're strangers. My worship is so foreign to him, and like you, I would never subject myself to EGW in a church setting. However, I have actually read some of her stuff. But I wasn't reading to prove anything when I first started, I had heard her name and thought I'd see what she said. I wrote 20 pages in disagreement with her statements, and I was told I took her out of context. That's where it began and it only got worse. I've said this to others because people said it to me...Guard your heart. This is not an issue to take lightly or to gloss over it's depth and significance. You may just be seeing the tip of the iceberg in his loyalty to the religion. And the language he uses is different than you are expecting. Same words, different meaning. Read on some other threads. There are great pearls of wisdom from those who have paved the road before us. As I've said before, I've been where you are. Stand firm in the gospel you know is true. | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 4 Registered: 9-2004 |
Yes! I will stand firm in the gospel that I know is true.. I told him that Dale was a FOURTH generation SDA who is now non-denominational like me (which adds to the credibility of saying SDA is wrong) I realized later on (as in now) that he won't believe any teachings against SDA unless they are from within and are spoken in an objective, intellectual manner (like Dale) I tried to give him some testimonies and he said that the people were bitter and you can't believe someone that leaves SDA in that manner. Point taken. But a book, objectively written (meaning w/o malice or hurt)by a former SDA?? I can't wait to hear what he says b/c his other argument is the "taken out of context" issues. You are the second person to say Guard my Heart, and although my heart is in this, I won't take it lightly-- this situation, I will think with my head and listen for direction from the Lord. TY for saying it again! And your other point: Is Christ all you need for salvation-- I will ask him directly again. I know his answer, but I never listened to "how" it was answered. The doubletalk that you speak of. Question: Did B listen to people like Joyce Meyer or Charles Stanley, David Jeremiah, TD Jakes.. ? Well- known non-denom ministers b/c C does regularly. I think he was searching for truth before he even met me. | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 650 Registered: 7-2000 |
Welcome Tracey! I agree with the excellent posts above. I know from many years of in Adventism, appearances can be deceiving! The real ANTI-CHRIST "spirit" behind the history and doctrines of Sevenh-day Adventism is manifest when you've be IN it and then state you no longer believe its' "unique" doctrines--most importantly 7th-day/Sabbath observance.... explaining that you are leaving to follow Christ alone. I have not found that they can rejoice with you that you are IN CHRIST!! There is a hold of Adventists minds over the Sabbath issue, even if they are very liberal "Sabbath-keepers"--not concerned with "rules" about eating out, shopping, entertainment, or sports. To actually go further and say Christ is our Rest 24/7--completely!--is something that would have to make them pause... ...pause and admit that Adventism is based on FALSEHOOD! They would have to consider the untruth of Adventisms'/Ellen Whites' "divine" instruction/claims about there being a "final test" of true loyalty to Christ--"keeping" the 7th-day Sabbath! My husband, son, and I watched the DVD of "The Passion of the Christ" last night (we'd seen it on the "big screen" a number of times). Because of recent interactions with Adventist relatives regarding our belief that we are SECURE IN CHRIST, I was struck with a very uneasy feeling watching the religious leaders/(Pharisees/Sadducees) attack Jesus with those sneering words of self-righteousness, concerned more about their laws, their ceremonies, their temple...their "place"...than in the One who fulfilled and embodied all of this...JESUS. Jesus, who stood before them as the final REST the FULFILLMENT of all true believers' hopes and dreams. I could see definite parallels with Adventism...the issue still being what are we going to do with JESUS!...how do we address who... and what... He claims to be? grace always, cindy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 665 Registered: 12-2003 |
Tracey, your boyfriend's arguments that you can't trust the stories of people who have let in bitterness or anger is also a smokescreen. People who have left in bitterness or anger (and by the way, that fact that many HAVE let in bitterness and anger over the years says something about the church, not the people who left) seldom take the trouble to write their stories. The stories I know from people who have left (such as those on our website) are written to explain how those people found Jesus and found Biblical truth. They are not bitter or angry. I am continually amazed at the way people can dismiss the testimonies of those who have left by saying, "Oh, you can't believe them--they're just hurt." If Adventists hear a former Mormon telling his or her story, they certainly don't dismiss that person as merely bitter. Rather, they listen and gain information to add to their understanding of Mormonism as a cult. The fact that Adventists dismiss the testimonies of formers as merely bitter people is actually a big hint that Adventists don't want to deal with the truth. I want to add my caution to Melissa's: guard your heart, and beware of double-speak and different meanings for words that sound orthodox. Colleen | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 119 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hi Tracey, Welcome! I would like to add my two, very small, cents. Of all the books that I have read, the one that I think is the most loving, most clear as to his reasons for leaving the SDA religion is Greg Taylor's "Discovering the New Covenant". It is very apparent that Greg and his wife, Paula, did not leave Adventism because of bitterness (he speaks with genuine affection of current SDAs and SDA churches). Even though he had some doubts regarding several SDA doctorines, he stood up and "fought" those within the church who left before him. He was a SDA pastor for almost 20 years before he clearly saw the meaning of the New Covenant and the freedom and joy that comes to those who believe Jesus is our only salvation and rest. I think it is good that C is comfortable attending a "Sunday" church. I know for myself, that was a step that was a long time coming. The brainwashing of fearing Sunday worshippers is very traumatic - or at least it was for me. I did not begin attending a Sunday church until I was convinced that the SDA Sabbath doctrine had many holes. I can also see that it is good that he is wanting you to look at EGW (as long as you do the search along with the Bible - not KJV, though). Once someone really does start taking a good look at her writings, it becomes very evident that she was a sandwich short of a picnic! Have you been to the ellenwhite.com or truthorfables ? Those sites have a great wealth of info on EGW. I will be praying for you and C that your time together in God's Word and in prayer, will make it clear to both your mind and your heart what God has in store for you. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 904 Registered: 11-2002 |
Tracey, It will be good for you to be part of this discussian group. Welcome, I am Susan. You say your boyfriend does not read egw books. He does not need to read egw books to be greatly influenced with her deception. Have you ever read through the Sabbath school lesson books? The sda's get a new one out every 13 weeks. They is very little Bible and a lot of egw in those lesson books. Have you ever read through some of the sda magazines? Even tho egw may not be actually quoted the influence is there. Sometimes sda ministers don't want to actually say the quote is by egw so before the quote they might say something like this, "A very famous and acclaimed Christian author once said..." and then quote egw, thus letting their unsuspecting audience not know it is a sda radio or t.v. program. It's just more deception. It's good that he is open to attendig church with you. The sda's in my life won't attend with me and I attend a Lutheran church and to tell you the truth, Lutheran services tend to be a bit on the formal side with little to no spontaninity. We recently had a guest at the church where I attend. This person asked if Lutheran's practice the gift of tongues. One elderly lady at our table smiled at her and told the guest, "I've never seen that happen and I have been Lutheran all my life. We do occassionally break out in Norwegion though". I think the lady was looking for a different type of service as she has not came back. Thank-you, Jesus that we are free to worship in a style that is to Your glory and that each of us is comfortble with. It will be nice getting acquainted with you, Tracy. | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 5 Registered: 9-2004 |
Dd and everyone, Well, tonight I gave C. some of Dale's researched works and I told him to just read with an open heart and that some of it he may just have to have faith about but it is well cited papers etc. He said that was fine. I also printed and let him read Melissa and Esther's comments to me. I told him that I was reaching out to others like him (since he was the only one I knew) for help on this b/c I am greatly concerned. He didn't appear angry. And I explained to him that Melissa is/was in our situation. Esther's words were very insightful and I warned him that it may hurt his feelings. But he read it and didn't react negatively other than he'd think about it. I asked him if he ever heard people call his church a cult or sect and he said he had. He also said "tracey, I really don't know much about this Ellen White or her writings." To which I replied that may be so, but the 2 things I personally read of hers (1. somthing about not witnessing b/c God closed up heaven for a period and then admitting she was wrong. 2. Jesus' return date) was scripturally wrong. And I then said that I am not at all comfortable with the importance this one woman has in your church! He said that that was a fair statement. And then I said that "and then to start a church with these teachings being part of the basis?? -- You do understand that I will never be an SDA, don't you? and I asked him if he had been praying for God to change my mind..He said he hadn't." He is such a good natured, sincere man. It's hard. But still in all, EW's teachings are somewhere a part of his teaching and that is scary and unacceptable. I told him, it's almost impossible for me to even have a conversation about her b/c 1. she's dead and 2. I have served Christ for 13 years and never knew or needed her writings and never knew her name so she means nothing to me EXCEPT she started the church you belong to." He didn't want to argue and I didn't either so we just kind of ended it there. I will get that book -- Love is very important to C in seeing Christ in people so I am glad that you said this book is written in a loving way. C and I went to one of those websites dedicated to her foundation or something. but nothign came of it really. I don't find that her doctrines are in the forefront of his mind that proving her wrong would be a big fight. it's the sabbath thing (which round about is that spirit still) Also, when I asked him about the Remnant church and being the only true church, he said that wasn't familiar with that too much either but that he read EGW wrote that not only SDAs would be saved when Jesus returned. I DON'T CARE WHAT SHE SAID!! and I know that already! aaarrgghhhh! Lastly, I gave him so much to read, he looked dazed! Esp at the document entitled "the Dogma of the IJ." Also from Dale's site were already researched articles negating her EW writings and "theories" as I call them.. So I told him tha t the hard work is done for him/us and we just have to get the books and confirm the findings! He was fine with researching based on the stuff I printed off with the excellent bibs and citations. TY for keeping us in prayer, Dd | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 6 Registered: 9-2004 |
Susan, No magazines, although our last trip to his family's house, he picked up a SS book to bring back with him. Funny comment about the speaking in the prayer language at the Lutheran church. My "spiritual" father is Lutheran and their church is NOT normal at all!! The speak in their prayer lanugage there and are a pretty free spirited lively group! I was VERY surprised at that! I was like "Lutherans??" haha! Nice to meet you and all of you. Will keep you posted! | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 7 Registered: 9-2004 |
One more thing, our church fellowships with Messianic believers' churches occasionaly and I think something may have clicked when C saw Jewish people (their pastor spoke and brought a large number of congregants with him) worshipping with US on a Sunday. It never occurred to me before but God will use even those events that he may never admit are actually challenging his sabbath belief.. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 908 Registered: 11-2002 |
Another line that sda's use as proof that egw is a valid prophit (profit) is that she said just before Jesus comes again many folks who have knowledge of the sda truth will fall into the hands of satan and will try to bring others down to the lake of fire (sda's version of hell) with them. So, generally sda's will be leary (frightened) of former sda's. Ah,the thought plickens. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 668 Registered: 12-2003 |
Tracey, do keep us posted. I'll be praying for him and for you. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 537 Registered: 3-2004 |
Tracey, Welcome to FAF. I agree with all everyone has said. Guard your heart and your mind. Watch the double speak that SDAs use. I will be praying for you and your boyfriend. Keep us posted. God is in charge and is awesome. Diana | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 8 Registered: 9-2004 |
Hi Gang, Had 2 dreams this weekend. 1. I was at C's parents home and the house was VERY dark! I went over to the couch and there was an EGW book that was old that they kept(implying they follow the teachings) and in the book was an old dress that used to belong to a little girl. I asked the mother why she keeps it and she said "even though it's old, it's dear to me and has sentimental value and it reminds me of when she was a small girl(meaning her daughter)" The Lord was showing me 1. God is light, and where there is light, there can be no darkness or else He isn't in there. 2. The reference to a childhood dress means the root of this is in C's childhood and very deeply rooted. 3. the book represents EGW teachings are the root of his sabbath belief and I shouldn't address the sabbath, but the root of the religion. Praise God for confirmation in the direction to take concerning this. 2nd dream last night. I was opening a bible and it had lines in it like this: My Word: ___________________ SDA teaches: _______________ There was a whole page of this. I believe the Lord is saying to me to Spell it out to him. Use His Word and EGW's teachings and compare and contrast them and write them down like above so that the words are written and staring him in the face. We go to the library on Saturdays usually, soo... Keep us in prayer. Thankfully, Dales' reserch and others' have done the bulk for us already. If anyone has any other suggestions, please speak! Tracey |
