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Dd
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Username: Dd

Post Number: 117
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 1:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Belva,
My husband and I have tossed your question of "getting beyond" and how long can EGW and SDA truly survive? It is an interesting thought...as our generation ages and the following generation(s)leads, will the religion self-destruct (with the help of Holy Spirit...)?

Hrob,
The more I "get to know you" the more I see that God is using your fiance' to "grow" you. Here I thought God placed you in her life to bring real truth to her life...I keep telling you...God has GREAT things in store for you! Thanks for sharing your study insights of Galatians...I know it is my favorite Bible book as it opened my eyes and changed my whole life around!
Dane
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Post Number: 27
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 3:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Belva,
Your question about "getting beyond" is quite pertinent to the experience of any former. I have no idea of how long you have been out of SDA but I know that in my experience and that of my wife it took quite a few years. It was a gradual weaning away. Almost like regrowing your thought processes. For us, it took a lot of study and deliberate decisions of the will. Hang in there.
Dane
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 658
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 5:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just want to comment on the idea that Ellen was, perhaps seeing into the future when she saw the patriarchs in heaven and Jesus revealing the ark with the angels.

The entire sanctuary and all its furnishings were shadows of the reality which is found in Christ. When Jesus told the Pharisees in Matthew 12 that "one greater than the temple is among you," he was saying that he was greater than the center of Jewish religion and culture. Why would Jesus pick the temple to contrast with himself?

The answer is that the temple housed the law, the ceremonies representing salvation, and the presence of God (historically, at least, before the cloud of His presence left as recorded in Ezekiel). By saying he was greater than the temple, Jesus was saying that not only was the prsence of God in Him, as it had been in the temple--but He IS the presence of God. The law was not merely within Him--He IS the law. The ceremonies are not merely performed in Him--He IS the sacrifice, the blood, the salvation of all Israel!

The temple in Heaven, according to Hebrews, is not comprised of furniture. It is the presence of God Himself. The law is the eternal reality of God Himself.

Ellen's vision of Jesus revealing the ark and the cherubim is just plain unbiblical. Her vision of the ark and the patriarchs, therefore, could not be considered a reliable picture of heaven at any time. Clearly, though, the way she wrote that vision, she did not explain it as a future event. She did not speak of seeing the saved from her day in heaven with the patriarchs.

And Dane, I agree with your explanation of your leaving. It is a gradual weaning, and I find that the Bible continually yields new understanding and insight. I am so grateful for the Holy Spirit and the word of God!

Has your mom heard those sermons yet, Hrob? She'll enjoy them!

Colleen
Hrobinsonw
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Post Number: 44
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 7:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not yet.

Sabra
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Post Number: 179
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Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 3:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'll have to find my notes, Colleen, Perry Stone was speaking of how the sanctuary was laid out and that it was a perfect picture of Jesus. I can't remember all of it, but I know he said if Jesus were to lie down with His feet at the lavar and the Holy of Holies would have been His head, on His right hand would have been at the golden candlesticks--as in Rev. 1:20, His left hand had scriptural significance, but I can't remember and then the knees and all of it. I know I'm doing no good, sorry. What you said just reminded me of it and I'll try to get the details so it will make sense.
Belvalew
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Username: Belvalew

Post Number: 35
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 5:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Sabra,

I've also heard it said, and if you were to look at a representation of the layout of the temple you could see that from the laver to the holy of holies you would have the image of The Cross.

Thousands of years before Jesus lay down His life for us there was a representation of how He would redeem us. He washes us clean, He is the Light of the World, He is the Bread of Life, and He is all that is holy.

Human-kind can be so miopic when looking at scripture and the promises found there. Last fall I was fortunate enough to participate in an in-depth study of the book of Hebrews, and the fact that the layout of the cross was found in the temple was one of the points discussed.

I'm also of the opinion that the only person whose words you have to pay attention to are those spoken by Jesus when discussing eternal life and when it begins. I remember being told in the Adventist church that when Jesus spoke about the after-life, as in the rich man and Lazarus, he was telling the story based on Hellenized beliefs that were being bandied about at the time. Jesus was all truth. He wouldn't need mere human fables to make a point. If He said that the rich man and Lazarus were already reaping the "rewards" of their lives on earth immediately after they had died, then He was telling the truth. I think it was in a book by Billy Graham that I read about the fact that souls waited in a place referred to as "The Bosom of Abraham" until Christ died on the cross. At that point in time their way was opened to enter directly into the presence of God.
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 664
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 12:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Belvalew, I agree with you re: we must take Jesus' words seriously. I am appalled at how I dismissed many of His teachings--especially the Lazarus/Abraham's bosom parable--as "just a parable"--it didn't really happen. Jesus would never tell an untruth as a means of teaching something true. How disrespectul--how blasphemous of me to have believed that!

I praise Him for knowing my weakness and blindness and for leading me toward His light despite myself!

Colleen
Hrobinsonw
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Username: Hrobinsonw

Post Number: 45
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 6:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Today I went to church with my fiance'. The scripture was from the first chapter of Genesis and was in reference to the Creation of Man and woman and the Godly presence. The title of the sermon was "Sex and the City." The pastor spoke of sex in modern day society. After reading this scripture, he spent the entire time speaking of sex and immorality and pornography. Genesis was the only scriptural reference. But in the midst of his hooping, he was speaking about people thinking that getting married will allow them to live out their sexual exploits and that they are wrong. Everyone rose up within the church and was giving amen's and yes sir's. They completely missed his contradiction of the Word of God. I was the only one as far as my eye could see that had my Bible open and attempting to follow alone. I remember a discusison Peter or Paul (if i remember correctly, i will have to find it) was having about sexual immorality. I remember reading that if individuals are going to give themselves over to sexual immorality, then they should get married. I will find it and document it later. My point is that, just that easy people are misled by words. An individual can quote basically a memory verse and because they stand in a position of Christian authourity, people automaticall believe what they say. I just wanted to share that. I almost fell asleep because it was yet another motivational speech that everyone that was surrounding me was treating like it was a soul saving sermon. Now let someone preach about the letter to the Church of Laodicea being luke warm and the message will be looked over as dull.
Susan_2
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Post Number: 905
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 7:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I had the displeasure of paging through the lastest issue of the Review. Maybe those of you out there who don't have easy access to that magazine can read this issue on-line. Seems as though one youth department at a church somewhere here in the USA has made a life-sized repleca of the sancturary. This repleca includes everything-the holy of holies, the arc of the covenant and the cute little lamb that the faithful sda's are sacrificing for their sins. The article even had a picture of the cute little lamb on the alter about ready to get whacked. The article said they are sacraficing the lamb but I don't know if they really kill the little cutie. I'm going to try and find out. If they are then I'm going to notify PETA and they can protest the SDA's who are vegetarian but will kill little lambies for their sins. Anyway, this sancturary repleca is a traveling sancturary. I guess like the traveling Vietnam War Memorial that goes back and forth across the United States so we all can have the opportunity of paying our respects to our fallen. The difference tho is that this traveling sancturary is the same size, an exact repleca. The sda's then go to the sancturary and get high on the incense and the preist does whatever the Isrealite priests did in the sancturary, they especially pay homage to the arc because it houses the 10 commandments, they give their sins to the cute little lamb and I guess the service is over. Colleen, I hope you read this article and look at the pictures. I just don't understand how come a Christian church would be doing this. I would like some discussion about this. HRobinsonw, that sermom you sat through sounds typical sda. I have sat through more sda sermons these past two years than I probably have in the previous 51 years of my life combined. I actually sit there and take notes. Very little is Bible. The local sda mininter generally just gives a 1 to 2 hr. informercial for this or that SDA program that needs $. The sermons that aren't informercials are like the one you spoke above about.
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 667
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 10:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan, you made me laugh! I'll look for the article!

Hrob, ditto Susan's comment--the sermon you heard is typical--maybe not in content, but in its lack of Biblical content. While there are some Adventist churches where the pastors are beginning to study the new covenant and are attempting to bring Jesus into their sermons (and these pastors, I might add, are on their way out whether they know it or not yet!), they are a small minority.

I understand your frustration!

Colleen
Belvalew
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Username: Belvalew

Post Number: 36
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 6:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not only do the SDAs have an exact replica of the temple they schlep it from camp meeting to camp meeting. They advertise the fact that it is there and offer, at a price, to allow the general public to tour their replica. I know this because my bible study women's group was invited to go tour the replica while it was set up at the SDA camp meeting near here. I never did get over there but since we had just finished a study of Hebrews there were several who wanted to look it over.

Seems to me it is another wonderful moneymaker for them. I'm sorry to be such a cynic where the SDAs are concerned, but it does make sense that if you sell out and overlook the Gospel, then next best thing to concentrate on is making a buck.
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 910
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 7:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Belvalew and others, So, you had already heard of this. It just seems to me the point of it to the faithful sda's is to upplay the law and to downplay Jesus. The point of it for non-sda's is to make money. Is it true that on Saturday mornings one can choose to attend the temple service in place of the regular sda sabbath school and worship service? If this is so then they really are replacing what they tell people is the only true Christian denomination (i.e.: the remnant, the little flock, etc.) with a total in-your-face non-Christian service. According to the pictures in the Review it is very accurate. Even the priests dress up like they did back then. It's all accurate down to the most minute detale. Belvalew, do they really kill the lambs?
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 548
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 8:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know I probably shouldn't be amazed, but I am, by the things the SDAs do. I did not realize the depths they sank to while I was out of the church and attending occasionally. And I found out they were deceitful from day 1. It was not until I got on here and heard all you formers tell of your experiences and read the other former web sites that I found out the depths to which the church will go. I can only say, If you do not know Jesus Christ, what else can a person/church offer??
I guess if one does not know Christ anything can be offered.
It is so sad that one has to sink/practice deceit to attract people to their church. I am saddened by their activities and deceit. That is all the more reason to pray for them every Friday evening and Saturday afternoon as a group. I just keep telling myself, that God is still in charge and He will prevail in the end. There are many people that are waiting to learn about Him and part of the responsibility is mine. I pray that I do my part as God wants me to do it.
He is awesome.
Diana
Belvalew
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Username: Belvalew

Post Number: 37
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 9:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi, this is Belva again. I never did see the actual replica, I only know that several of the women in my Bible study group had heard about it and were going to visit it while it was close. I was told that it was accurate down to the last detail (except that everything was overlayed with gold paint).

There was a "nominal" for non-members to tour the facility. I didn't hear anything about the actual services being replicated. I also received the Review that was bragging about their newest attraction. I scanned their article but didn't spend much time looking for details. Only said to myself, "Oh, this must be the thing they are touring around the country with," then threw the magazine away.

I would be appauled to find that they are enacting the actual services--to what end??????
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 911
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 11:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doesn't the sda church have a sda/egw amusement park in Michigan? And, doesn't a sda church in Colorado have egw in a stained glass window? Are those folks totally spun? What are some of the there goofy things that the sda church has come up with? I'm sure there must be more. And, I just wanted to make some extra bucks selling egw bobbleheads at campmeeting.
Pheeki
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Username: Pheeki

Post Number: 390
Registered: 1-2003
Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 8:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is a lady here in Texas who sends out newsletters asking for money and telling about her progress of building an exact lifesize replica of the temple on her 10 acres that people will be able to come and tour (for a fee of course). What a colossal waste of time.
Pw
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Post Number: 133
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 10:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does anyone know if the SDA church is growing or dwindling? If mainstream Protestant churches are their mission field, you'd think that people would know better than to be misled into their belief system.
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 674
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 11:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The church, apparently, is dwindling in North America, but it is growing hugely in third-world countries--along with Mormonism. Quite frankly, it offers a great way to become middle-class. You get cleaned up, educated, employed by "the system", and you gain status over your national peers by means of your new church. I realize that's quite a simplistic generalization, but I believe it is absolutely true.

Colleen
Vchowdhury1
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Username: Vchowdhury1

Post Number: 24
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 11:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

PW, a I would also like to know if the sda church is growing or dwindling. That would be interesting. I was reading on a website (I forgot which one)that the sda church has the second largest exit of members(Jehova Witness having the first largest). Does anyone have any statistics on this also?
--Valerie
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 471
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 2:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hrobinsonw, I have had similar conversations with B. First, he wouldn't dream of breaking the sabbath as SDAs teach it, he uses scripture on sexual immorality to "prove" he has to be vegetarian because his body is the temple of the holy spirit, but when it comes to using those same texts to address sexual immorality as directly spoken about in the Bible??? Well, he doesn't think those scriptures really mean exactly what they say. They say not to be immoral with prostitutes or harlots, it doesn't say anything about loving relationships outside of marriage. And the text that says its better to marry than burn with passion isn't supporting that either. I don't think most SDAs are as liberal with their morality in that way, but I know B says they have "a lot" of people with children out of wedlock and there is no problem. I have often wondered if the SDA even know how to apply a text in context. For example, I've wondered if they spent as much time putting the fear of God about sexual morality that they've put about sabbathkeeping, if there would be more attention to that?? But the even more peculiar part is that when I quote EGW and her puritan views on sex IN marriage, he defends it completely, even trying to site examples of why her advice is "best." Based upon the SDAs in Bs family/church and some of the conversations I have had, they are probably more concerned my son is not a vegetarian than that he exists. One year at Easter, B's sermon notes covered such crucial topics like Sundaykeepers use of easter as an excuse to eat ham, chocolate bunnies and easter eggs. For the record, I need no excuse to eat anything chocolate, nor ham, and don't care for hard boiled eggs whether the shells are colored or white. But I could hardly believe that of all the things to talk about in a day-before-easter sermon, those items made the cut. For B, these are highly spiritual issues and my attitude towards them 'proves' my lack of spirituality. I just shake my head....

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