| Author | Message | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 892 Registered: 11-2002 |
Did they tell the folks about ellen white at all? Were most the converts illiterate? I assume in such a non-modern location there would be no need to mention bowling alleys, movie theatres, pubs and nightclubs, etc. But, culturally though isn't there a lot of dancing with those peoples? How's this addressed? Or, maybe it isn't. | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 161 Registered: 5-2004 |
Susan, I am not sure what they taught about EGW, to tell you the truth. WHat I heard was mainly elementary about "needing God" and the Gospel message, and, of course, Saturday. Then they tacked on the ban on jewelry. But some of what they were preaching was not translated into English, and I was not at most of the village speaking session. (Many of them actually occurred before we got there. There was a native Malay SDA missionary there for several months before we arrived to put in the water system and do a clinic.) I do know that they were baptizing whole families at a time, many of them, I am sure, were just there for the experience and didn't know what was really going on. And yes, they were almost entirely illiterate up in the jungles where we were. The only people who read were the native missionaries from the cities who would move out there to witness for a year or so at a time. Hong Kong, I am sure, is privy to the EGW messages. | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 102 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hi Susan, I see no-one else has answered about Europe. I cannot really give you a great deal of info on this, just what I have come across. I am from England, but I have never met any British SDAs, so I have no idea what they are like. I have met one Romanian SDA lady, who used to cook for my Welsh friends who are doing mission work in Arad. According to my friends, she seemed to be a Christian, accepted them as brothers and sisters (they are Evangelical/Pentecostal), and used to talk about having a relationship with Jesus. She was, hoever, vegetarian and would not work Saturdays. I have heard that in Germany, they do not push EGW too much, but I have no personal experience of that. In Hungary, I have met two SDA ladies who were on a Christian retreat with people from lots of churches. They seemed to have a great time, though one of them went on about the Sabbath a bit - no-one took much notice. They were knocking back the coffee and the meat stew with the rest of us, though - I did not make a comment, I just noticed! Apparently they had been told by people from their church that they should not go to the retreat, as they would be learning bad things there! My main contact is (or has been) with the Christian Advent Fellowship here in Hungary. They split from the SDAs in the 1970s, because they felt SDAs were not Adventist enough (I think). Mx friend Gyula attended their Bible College, that is how I know them. They advertise the college as interdenominational and open to all, and then teach Adventist theology - the deceptive tactics do not change! Gyula learnt all the distinctives: EGW as a prophet and the latter day Elijah, remnant church, Sabbath as the seal, Sunday as mark of the beast, Sunday laws, Revelation and Daniel interpretations, the Pope as the beast, 1844 and the investigative judgement, Satan as the scapegoat, soul sleep, conditional immortality, Jesus having a sinful nature. The CAF people are mostly vegetarian, and keep the other food rules, like no coffee and tea, no vinegar, etc.. Gyula was supposed to read EGW books as part of the college course, but never actually read one all the way through. The laugh is, that I actually got through the Great Controversy, whereas he only manged half of it. Anyway, the CAFs I know do not seem to be particularly heathly, for all their food laws. They seem pretty neurotic about keeping them, and the Sabbath, they seem quite depressive and melancholy on the whole, but also arrogant about having the truth. That probably isn't much different either. I forget to mention one more SDA I have met, who is a Bible college lecturer. (That is SDA, not CAF). He gives me the impression of being miserable all the time too. I also get the impression that SDA and CAF do not get on at all well, by the way. Sorry my information is not more extensive. God bless, Adrian | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 103 Registered: 2-2003 |
One incident I forgot. I am acquainted with the pastor of an independent church who personally knew the ex-president of the SDAs, who is apparently quite a competent theologian. His name is Szigeti Jenž. He once said to him, "Do you not know the Bible teaches salvation is by faith, and not by works." The answer was, "Yes, I know, I know. But what would happen to the church if we told people?" Can you imagine? God bless, Adrian | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 896 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yes, Adrian, I can immagine. However a lot of churches teach faith over works and the result is the Christians in those churches have great enthusiam and zest for Jesus. I have not seen much zest or enthusiam for Jesus among SDA's. I have numeros Canadian kinfolk who are SDA. The would be what is referred to as Historic Adventists. They ae the type who keep the Bible on the shelf and read The Great Controversery at their evening worship. | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 168 Registered: 5-2004 |
Susan, astute comment! The SDAs do teach that life under CHrist without law would be a free-for-all sin-fest. But it IS quite the opposite, from what I have seen. Those who focus on Christ are transformed and exhibit the heart and mind of Christ; Thus, zeal for God's ideals! Those who focus on law, are trying to "succeed" under their own power; Thus, less fruit, more disappointment, and very little zeal for Christ. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 31 Registered: 7-2004 |
T- What stands out to me again and again is that people who have not experienced what grace really is, struggle to accept others "warts and all." It seems as if all their own frustration at not being perfect are directed outwards towards everyone else. No one (not even themselves) can measure up to their standards, but the more they can judge others and knock them down a notch, the higher that moves them up in comparison. Those who focus on the law may also have much zeal, but very little joy. It is so much easier to share love and joy when you experience it routinely through knowing God's grace. | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 169 Registered: 5-2004 |
True Ric, It is joy that is missing. I also think that a fire, a passion, for experiencing Christ in their life is missing. - that it isn't just the joy resultant from a healthy relationship with Him, but they lack that God-given yearning and fervor for the Holy Spirit's touch in their life. | ||
| Yossariana Registered user Username: Yossariana Post Number: 5 Registered: 8-2004 |
Hi again! I am safe at home, thanks to God's care and your prayers. I wont use internet everyday, very slow connection... Regarding Egw...In Sweden, they dont quote her so much, or even if they do it they are very careful. It's an interesting adventism in Sweden compared to Romania. They meet on Saturday morning for two hours and that's all. After that, the young people go to pizza or to bowling. Most sda cook in Sabbath. Sda Hymnal praise is identic with Lutheran book. Once, Mark Finley wanted to come to Sweden to preach...but the Swedish sda didnt like the idea. I have never met somebody in Sweden who believe EGW is a prophetes, except some Romanian sda who live now there. Almost everybody told me Sda church from Gothenburg is an ecumenic church. In Romania, everything is different, to resume, it is exactly the opposite. PS: Adrian, are you an adventist?? andreea gascoigne | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 104 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hi Andreea, Glad you are OK. I have never been Adventist, I have just had "dealings" with them here in Hungary, where they seem to have rather disproportionate influence in the Christian world. The way it started was that a very good friend of mine attended a traditional Adventist Bible College, so I studied the teachings to help him sort his head out once he had finished. That is about five years ago, and he still comes out with Ellen-esque statements occasionally. Not too often though, I think most things have come up by now. Enjoy your stay at home - I found your city on the map, by the way. Right on the Ukraine border! I have never been up there, just to Cluj-Napoca several times. God bless, Adrian | ||
| Yossariana Registered user Username: Yossariana Post Number: 6 Registered: 8-2004 |
 Tnx! Finally I had a discussion with my pastor here. He asked me if I got married and I said 'yes'...Then, he asked why I was in such a hurry...and not waiting for my husband to become an adventist. I told him that Steve is a real Christian and then he accused me of ecumenism. I tried to justify myself but with no results. He said that going to Sweden (west) made me crazy. Before I got married everybody tried to influence me not to do it. Now that I got married, everybody keep pushing me to make Steve an adventist. I feel terible and above all, I feel they are trying to convince me that Im guilty, but I dont see how. What shall I do? Adrian, I will be living close to Leamington Spa. Im wondering if you know some ex-sda aound there. Tnx. sincerely in Christ, andreea. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 125 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear Andreea - I am so very sorry you are going through this time. I wish we all could be there with you to surround you with God's grace and love. Please know that I am praying that you will feel God's presence today in a special way. Andreea, YOU ARE A CHILD OF GOD! The Bible is FULL of promises of what we must do to be saved. It DOES NOT say, " For God so loved the world...that whoever believes in the SDA church...shall have eternal life!" It says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM" -- It is all about JESUS!! If God loved us so much, that He sent His Son to die for us, do you think He would have been so "secretive" about Sabbath and the SDA religion? NO!! He would have made sure it was very, very clear that keeping Sabbath and faithful attendence to the SDA church was a part of the deal! God's Word is clear - Jesus is our Salvation, our Hope, our EVERYTHING! (John 5:24, Isaiah 53:1-12, Malachi 4:2, Romans 10:9,10....the list goes on and on...!!!) Before Jesus left this earth He promised us a Helper, a Counselor, a Comforter. He did not leave us as orphans (John 14:19). We have the Holy Spirit who replaced the visible Jesus and He brings the same help and comfort that Jesus did when He lived among the people! We don't need a church to live for us. IT IS ALL ABOUT JESUS! EPHESIANS 3:14-19 - "For this reason I bow my knees before the Father...that He would grant you [Andreea]...to be strengthened with power through His Spirit...so that Christ my dwell in your heart through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend...and know the love of Christ which suprasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God." This is my prayer for you Andreea! God will bless you! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 676 Registered: 12-2003 |
Andreea, Dd's right; remember who you are in Christ. Your identity in Jesus transcends your identity as a Romanian, a wife, a church member--anything. You are in God's family, and you can call on your Father and receive the authority and power of His Spirit and wisdom at any moment. One thing to think about: you do not have to have any more conversations with that pastor. From what you have said, his method of talking with you amounts to intimidation and spiritual abuse. You do not owe him explanations or futher conversation unless you really believe God is leading you to speak to Him. If you find yourself in a place where you feel God wants you to speak, literally pray in your head that God will give you His words and His authority to speak and honor Him. You know the truth to which Jesus has led you, and you know the reality of Jesus' love. Arguing with an Adventist is pointless; you will not change his mind. Stay grounded in Jesus; stay grounded in the Bible, and spend some time every day reading it. God will give you the courage and the insight to know when to refuse to speak--and He will give you the words to say when you must speak! I am praying for that God will protect you with His Spirit. and that He will be more real to you than your fear and confusion. He is the God of truth and clarity; ask Him to guard your heart and mind in Jesus! Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 165 Registered: 4-2000 |
Adrian and Yossariana, Your mentioning the border areas of the Ukraine reminds me about my fraternal heritage. My late father was born in Odessa, the seaport city on the Black Sea, in 1906. Religiously speaking, they were much better off there than later when they were deceived into Adventism on the western plains of North Dakota, USA. My great-grandfather was a German-speaking, Lutheran minister there. Immigrants are very vulnerable to accepting new ideas in their new country and culture. During this massive immigraton in the early twentieth century through Ellis Island (New York City harbor), American Adventists took advantage of this unique opportunity to gain new members. At most, these new converts only knew about five distinctive SDA beliefs; namely, sabbathing, tithing, soul sleep/conditonalism, Ellen White, and clean/unclean meats. The twenty-seven distinctive doctrines were still unheard of. Consequently, these converts generally were not savvy with details about the nature of Christ, the investigative judgment, Ellen White's plagiarism/biblical contradictions, denominational history, Arminianism, Arianism, etc. As immigrants with limited formal education and linguistics, they were literally "sitting ducks" for German-speaking Adventist evangelists. Information truly empowers people; a lack of information often has the uncanny ability to enslave people. The fact that these SDA evangelists used their mother tongue made them feel more comfortable and acceptable as well. Not only did they have a new country and a new culture to get acquainted with, but now a new, strange religion was thrust upon them. Although my late mother knew very little about Adventism, it is noteworthy that she knew Jesus personally. In her case, as Providence would have it, a limited view of Adventism was beneficial spiritually. Repeatedly, I overheard her German-spoken prayers behind a closed door. Thankfully, the prayers of my mother have had a powerful impact on my life. Being one of six children, I often listened to hear if my name was still on her list. Praise God, she never missed my name. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 550 Registered: 3-2004 |
Andreea, As Dd and Colleen have said, you are a child of God. Remember that at all times. You and your husband will continue to be in my prayers. Diana | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 915 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dennis, My kin came from Ukarine around the same time as yours. The situtation between your heritage and mine seems very similiar. Apparently the Bulshavicks (sp?) would have whipped them out so instead they got out and came to the USA. They settled in Canada for awhile just to check it out and then decided on the US. What you say about the new immagrants being very suspectible to new everything, including religion in their new land is very interesting. Southeran California has many new American immagrants, many who don't know English and don't know our customs. The SDA denomination is FLOODING the immagrant neighborhoods in Southeran California to get converts. They invite the children to VBS, to other things generally showing the children a good time and thus sucking in the parents. The very small SDA school my granddauhter attends is made up mostly as Spanish as a first language families. Most of the families who send their children to this shool have converted from Catholic to SDA because of the SDA community outreach programs. Most the families who send their children to this school are much in poverty so I assume the school must be greatly substized by the conference/denomination finincially. The families who send their children there seem very nice and sincere and very vunerable to anything that will be American to them. The teacher my granddaughter had last year will be at a different SDA school next year. Also in Southeran California but at a school with a more higher income among the families whose children go there. The teacher said it is because the other SDA school will pay her $10,000 more per year for the same work. Last year was this teachers first year teaching. She had just graduated from PUC in June and started teaching there in September. It just seemed to me like the attitude was that she got her first year teaching in the poor, little immagrant school and now she can go teach at the "white" school and make $10,000 more per year for the same denomination but at a different school less than 50 miles from the poor, little immagrant, non-English speeking school. Am I making sense? Until I had talked with that teacher I had no idea there was such a great difference that the SDA school teachers made from one school to another, especially schools so close in distance. So, I can only assume it is because of the social/income status of the families whose children the school serves. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 472 Registered: 7-2003 |
How ironic...B's family is Ukrainian in background as well. Immigrated to Canada, where his grandparents still are, and his family moved to US...North Dakota first, then elsewhere. Are SDAs stronger in Canada than the US? It sure seems many had roots from Canada anyway. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 166 Registered: 4-2000 |
Melissa, The reason many of these immigrants first came to Canada and then to the northern Plains is because there was no railroad service going to North Dakota straight from the East Coast. Therefore, the detour through Canada (from Ellis Island Immigration Center) was necessary to claim their homesteads in the northern Plains. With a few simple rules, the 160-acre homestead was their legal property after just a few years (I think after about five years--not sure). Life on the prairie frontier was very difficult, while living in a sodhouse, in the very cold climate of the Dakotas. They were not used to the extreme temperatures. The women often cried as they remembered the land that they had left. It was only their hearty youth that enabled them to survive their plight. Overall, Seventh-day Adventism is less known in Canada than in the United States. The State, with the most SDAs, is likely to be California. Interestingly, the New England area being the birthplace of Adventism, has less SDA presence than the other regions of the country. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Madelia Registered user Username: Madelia Post Number: 86 Registered: 2-2003 |
Dennis, Just wanted to say how I appreciate your wealth of knowledge! Thanks so much for sharing it with all of us. | ||
| Spokenfor Registered user Username: Spokenfor Post Number: 40 Registered: 12-2003 |
Just wanted to add my 'heritage' to the list. My grandmother was a Lutheran German/Russian immigrant who came to Canada in the mid 1920's. She attended 'tent' meetings and was converted to Adventism when her Lutheran pastor could not show her where in the Bible the Sabbath was changed to Sunday. She was uneducated and spoke little English. I never asked but I suppose the meetings were in German or she wouldn't have understood them. Winnipeg, where my grandmother lived and died, once had a large German speaking SDA congregation as well as a Ukrainian one and several English ones. Growing up I always was amazed at my good fortune in being 'born' into the 'truth' and was grateful that my grandmother had been receptive to the message. I feel quite differently now! Until I read this thread I wasn't aware of how many generational adventists came from families who immigrated to Canada and the US. I can see how, as Dennis noted, they would've been sitting ducks for the SDA message as are thousands of people in third world and post communist countries today. Incidentally I live in upstate NY, very near the beginnings of several religions (a mile and a half from the Hiram Edson farm, 5 miles from the Joseph Smith farm and only a few from the home of the Fox sisters)! I can attest to the fact that Adventism is decreasing in the northeast where it began rather than growing. For every new convert (which are few and far between) a couple more silently drop from sight. Conferences are struggling financially and pastors have 3 - 4 churches a piece because there aren't enough members to support them. |
