| Author | Message | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 123 Registered: 7-2004 |
Tracey - I reread Galatians 3 and 4 this morning - that is VERY powerful stuff....hits SDA Sabbath hard! You are right on on EGW being the root of SDA Sabbath beliefs - and it goes sooo much deeper than keeping it holy. Remember we were taught to fear Sunday worshipers and anything outside of "truth". | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 670 Registered: 12-2003 |
Tracey, You're right about the root of Adventism and about showing C the difference between the Bible and EGW. For many of us, it took knowing that EGW was a false prophet before we could be open enough to grasp the new covenant. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 545 Registered: 3-2004 |
Tracey, keep your mind open to God's leading. You are right about the root of Adventism and showing C the difference between the Bible and EGW. It was not until I learned that EGW plagiarized that I was open to the correction of the doctrines taught by the SDA. God is awesome and will lead you and teach you. Diana | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 164 Registered: 4-2000 |
Several months ago, two Mormon boys visited our home. When I mentioned the Utah Lighthouse Ministries (Jerald and Sandra Tanner's website and bookstore: www.utlm.org), one of the guys quickly said, "They are very bitter." I could hardly believe my ears! That is exactly how Adventists talk about former insiders as well. Apparently, the Mormon missionaries are taught to make that comment about the well-known ministry of the Tanner family, former Mormons. Interestingly, one of the Mormon boys said that "The Adventists stole our health message." Indeed, the Mormons did prohibit coffee and tea many years before the Adventists did. If I remember correctly, the Tanner's are now Baptists. They have both an online bookstore and one physically located in the heart of Salt Lake City. I am a subscriber of their "Salt Lake Messenger" newsletter. There are many similarities between Mormons and Adventists (i.e., their extrabiblical writings, their prophets, stunning similarities between Ellen White's and Joseph Smith's general writings, phrases, events, light descriptions, health message, angel descriptions, visioning, warnings, exclusiveness, initial denial of being merely prophets, etc.). Several years ago, I listened to an NPR broadcast giving an audio clip of a Mormon prayer meeting. I remember one lady going on and on about how thankful she was that she finally found the "truth." The same audio could have been played at a SDA campmeeting--the AMENS would have erupted everywhere. The Adventists would be certain that such a testimony could only come from one of their own. It really sounded Adventistic! Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 661 Registered: 7-2000 |
Yes, Dennis...there are many similarities. About 15 years ago we lived in Southern Idaho, heavily Mormon country. Our neighbors were very kind, generous and helpful in many ways. When we moved, our next door neighbor (a Mormon Bishop and family) gave us "The Book of Mormon" with a beautiful letter written by them in the flyleaf: Here's the last paragraph of their note to us: "We would like you to have this book...it is the greatest gift we could give. Hope you will read it prayerfully and put it to the test. Page 529 Moroni 10:3 thru 4 and also 3 Nephi chapter 16 and chapter 17:17-25. The Lord bless you." There's an eerie reverence in that note to the extra-bibilical "Book of Mormon" that I know also exists in the minds of many Adventists regarding Ellen Whites' writings, especilly the "Conflict of the Ages" series.... Sigh... grace always, cindy | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 58 Registered: 5-2004 |
Tracey, We were gone for the weekend and it looks like I missed alot  I wanted to say that I agree with your dream to not attack the Sabbath. I would always clarify that Sabbatarianism isn't a bad thing. It's something God gave to man, and can be a wonderful day to worship and devote to God. I know many wonderful Sabbatarians who have chosed to remain so even though they know it's not a salvation requirement. The point is: it doesn't matter. Christ has come, the shadow became reality, we walked around the mountain, and now behold God. We can observe the Sabbath if we chose, or God leads us to, but it's not something to hold everyone to. It's not a "ticket to heaven". The danger with SDA's is that Sabbath has SO much power to them. That for SDA's to keep observing Sabbath, they must really make sure that they are not doing so as a safety precaution. They MUST realize that they are fully giving their own works to Christ, and relying COMPLETELY on Him! So, I don't believe that studying the Sabbath/Sunday issue is the point. The point is coming to Christ...and if he's already doing that, he may be on the right path. God has His own timing for each of us. Putting the rest the errors of Adventism, open a Christian up to SO MANY wonderful blessings, and a walk with God that is so new...something so unimaginable while under the law. (Speaking from my own experience that is). BTW: I hope my words didn't offend him. They serious questions that every person should know the answer to. They only stemmed from my own journey. I was an multi generational (at least 5) SDA. Raised in the church, in the schools, married the SDA boy. Had SDA missionary great grand, and grand parents that were involved in the foundational work in Africa, etc. I don't say this to brag...in fact, now it's almost sickening for me to say...because these are all people that I love, who now hate me for "turning away from the truth". But I had no reason to question SDAism. I thought I was blessed to be so lucky to be born into such a time But I desired to know God more than anything, and something was missing. I was constantly looking for the next great sermon, the next seminar, the next book, that would connect me to God, and help me feel spiritual. I carried guilt for not living perfectly the life I knew I should be. (you know...still having laundry in the dryer at sundown). And though, I loved God, and had a relationship with Him, I wanted more. If God can reach down and pluck me out...He can rescue anyone who desires it! And how can I even put into words how my life has changed. Every pain from my family and friends, is well worth what I have gained in KNOWING Him! In the "soul-connection" I have now. So I can relate to his perspective of thinging everyone who leaves must have something to be angry about. When this all hit me, I spent a whole week gasping for air, my very lungs ached I hurt so bad and felt so lost thinking everything I had believed was a lie. But encourage him to reach out, to grasp a hold of Christ... There's a story of little boy who went searching for truth. He climbed a tall mountain and found a wise old sage. He asked the sage about truth, and the sage replied that if the boy wanted to truth, he would take him to it. They set out walking and climbed several peaks until they came to a river. The sage waded in and the boy followed. Suddenly the sage grabbed the little boy and pulled him under the water. The boy fought and fought until he was about the pass out and let death come, when the sage pulled him back to the surface. As the boy gasped for air he asked why the sage would try to kill him. The sage said, "When you're hunting for truth as desperately as you were fighting for air...that's when you'll find it". I'm not sure where I heard that, but I always try now to keep hunting for truth that desperately. It's like Jacob, clinging to God for life. That is our only hope | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 468 Registered: 7-2003 |
Tracey, just getting back after the holiday weekend. To answer your "long ago" question, no, B does not routinely listen to non-sda speakers. He doesn't like Tony Evans, he has listened to David Jeremiah upon occasion, and except for the parts he disagrees with adventism, B thinks he has great insights. It's all measured by how they agree with adventism. He never considers that adventism is the one that's wrong in its view of scripture. The default thinking is they are right and everyone else has to "prove" they're wrong. The generational thing didn't lend any credibility to B either. He even had Gladson as a professor (wrote one of the books available) yet he just saw the anger over the way he was treated and never acknowledged the doctrinal struggle that brought him to the point of disagreement with the institution to begin with. Even one of their own scholars (Cottrell) put together a paper talking about the errors with the IJ, and he would rather say the scholar was wrong, than believe anything of adventism was wrong. See, it didn't matter who or where the message came from. Saying adventism is wrong in any way, shape, or form does not compute to him. No matter what the cost. Part of me wants to say it's okay to hope, but a larger part of me says you're setting yourself up. I haven't read all the posts inbetween your question to me about B, so some of this may be duplicated. Sorry to be so negative. I've been on this road a long time. I'd just like to spare you some of my pain. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 469 Registered: 7-2003 |
I gave B a whole host of books and articles to read, but unfortunately, though he said he would read them, and though he will never acknowledge why, he has never actually read them. It took him 2 years to read the one book he did read and I'm sure the point from the beginning to the end was lost. He's read some of the other posts from the other websites I've printed out, but he says I'm listening to others and not studying the Bible for myself. Of course, neither is he, but he has the truth and I'm listening to deceivers. I hope your C really does follow-through and read the things you've given him with as much of an open mind as possible. Try not to overwelm (overwhelm??) him at the same time. Sometimes I think that did more damage than good. For B, it is not only the sabbath and being a part of the remnant church, but for some reason being "right" about the state of the dead is also a huge issue. I pray that God will touch your C and that you will follow God's leading as to how much and when to provide him with information. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 470 Registered: 7-2003 |
I would double what Dd said about Greg's book. It shows the depth of love he has for those people. I had a hard time through the beginning of the book because I want adventism painted as evil. While he makes the point in the end by talking about the church in Galatia, you can tell he sees lost people where I only see a religion. If C wants to read about the love of Christ, and in my opinion see it written towards a group of people he cares about, his book is outstanding. I wish it had been available when I started this quest. He has a very compassionate tone that I personally can't muster. But I don't really know the people, only the religion. He tells me I need to get to know the people, but I always come back that he's not willing to get to know the people in a Sunday church, so I won't support the double standard. If your communication is stil open enough to talk about these things without screaming at each other (very fruitful, I might add...NOT!), then maybe you're not dealing with a completely closed heart. Either way, a heart that cannot be touched by Greg's book is one of stone. I read it in 4 hours. The personal story of his spiritual quest is truly moving like few others I have seen. It's intimate, and it's a personal battle without outside conflicts. It was purely an issue between him and God, and that is what makes his journey unique. He has been in a nurturing and supportive environment until his decision to leave. Though he briefly mentions the angst after he resigned, the personal struggle he fights is obvious. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 675 Registered: 12-2003 |
I third the recommendaton of Greg Taylor's book. I do want to say--and I realize this might sound hard-nosed and picky, but I've got to say it anyway--ultimately the Sabbath is a really significant issue for most Adventists. I agree with you, Esther, that we shouldn't get stuck arguing about whether or not to keep the Sabbath; it's Christ we must know, and the truth becomes plain after we know Him. Yet the Sabbath, for most formers, is a sticking point because, I believe, it is a replacement for Christ. While observing the day is a moot point according to the New Testament, still most Seventh-day Adventists ultimately must give up keeping the Sabbath in order to surrender to God their deep-seated suspicion that the day MIGHT be significant. Giving up the day, however, is NOT the first step. Esther is right that knowing Jesus is definitely the first step, and for many if not most Adventists, seeing EGW as a false prophet must come before the Sabbath can be fully dealt with. The Sabbath, for former Adventists, usually becomes an issue like the meat offered to idols was an issue for the Corinthians. Paul said he could eat that meat; the idols were nothing, and the offering meant nothing to him. Yet he forbade the Corinthians from eating it. That meat offered to their former deities represented the false beliefs and worship from which they came. Eating that meat would trigger a cascade of memories, behaviors, feelings, and fears for them that it could not trigger for Paul, a former orthodox Jew. The state of the dead is deeply important, too, because the Adventist belief that the spirit is breath warps their understanding of the nature of sin, the nature and need of salvation, and the nature of Christ. There is much heresy underlying the apparently heterodox but benign practices and beliefs of Adventism. Adventism is truly one of the best deceptions around. Praise God for His Spirit, His word, and the fact that He reveals truth to us when we truly desire it! Colleen | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 9 Registered: 9-2004 |
Whew! Wow! Where do I start? Yes, C is saved knows Jesus and has even received the baptism of the Holy spirit and the evidence thereof (speaking in tongues-- or prayer language as we call it)..(Acts 2 and I helped him)Christ is his savior.. Salvation is not his issue and frankly, I tend to think that most Adventists have a relationship with the Lord Jesus and are saved. It hasn't been my idea that SDAs don't love Jesus;even though the teaching is incorrect and false in many cases; just an fyi. Second, Greg Taylor's book came in the mail today! Along with Sabbath in Christ. exciting to me! so.. So far, it is very sensitive and I am happy about that. Third, I told C that I believe observing the "jewish" sabbath is an option for me but that I am required to set aside a day of specific worship with other believers and therefore I practice the sabbath myself.I said this as well as told him that I see why God made it and how good it is to put the world aside and work aside b/c it benfits us spiritually, mentally, physically and I believe that the sabbath is good. I just believe I have the "option" to do it on Saturday because God is easy like that! Well, you know, only that first part went over well with him. WE don't yell "spritied conversations is more like it! haha! But we have always been respectful. This is interesting, one saturday we had a picnic and the Lord let me see a part of his heart. How to put this? His heart was saying "Lord, If I knew it was alright not specifically observe sabbath on Saturday,then I would do it." To confirm this word of knowledge, I said C, is this what you think or have said to yourself or to God?" then I repeated the above -- Do you know what he said?? He said Yes, that is exactly right, Tracey. If I knew I would still please him, I wouldn't feel I have to do it." He doesn't see the miracle in God even showing me his heart! It should be proof alone! But I know it's deeper than his faith wil allow b/c of the teachings. I agree,I don't want to overwhelm him, after I give him these two books, I will leave him to his own studies.. I can lead a horse to water, but I can't make him drink. It's in God's hands now. I also don't want to break him down by forcing him to do things on Saturday b/c he is sincerely convicted usually. But there was a small breakthrough on Saturday, 4th.. He helped me wash my car and it was only 4:30 or 5:00! I ws shocked but I don't dare say a word-- just "Thank you". Esther, I think your words didn't hurt his feelings.. They were insightful and I think he took it as such. I mean, who are you that you would mean him harm? So he was fine. I am emailing him your story about the little boy -- that's really a vivid image! Dd, I really didn't knwo they "feared" sudnay worshipers-- I dont' think he does b/c he worship together every Sunday and most saturdays that he isn't working. Melissa -- No, your exp. and emails really keep me grounded! I appreciate your warnings.. We are giving this until December (we will have been dating a year and 4 months) and although I feel rushed, I really have placed this in God's hands now. Colleen,FLday, It means a lot to hear from all of you.. That I am not alone in wanting loved ones to know the truth.. And I feel very safe in the fact that you guys confirmed my dreams re: the root of the matter being the first step towards breaking down EGW's credibility and then go from there. Love in Christ and May our Lord richly bless you all with more knowledge, understanding and the desires of your heart as you acknowledge him in all your ways! Tracey | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 914 Registered: 11-2002 |
I have been reading this thread and have been praying for each of yous individual situations. I am in a similiar situtation as several of you yet my situtation is much different. Most you on this thread are deling with boyfriends/girlfriends or spouses that you want to be able to share the love of Jesus with. I would like to just know how much I can share with my son and not have him ban me from being with my grandchildren. I generally say nothing. Frankly, I think he knows very little of the SDA religion and therefore what he does know agrees with how he understands the Bible. He went to SDA summer camp most every summer as a kid and to campmeetig most summers with is grandma and to four months of boarding school. He went to SDA SS each week until around ag 12 when the pastor at the SDA church either quit or got fired, I never heard which it was, and the next week we started attendig at the church this now previous SDA minister began ministering at. When we talk with one another I constantly have to watch every word and every expression because he will try to twist things to his advantage, which generally means making him to be top dog and everyone else seem like a doofus. I have been contimplating sending him Proclamation! and some of the books through Dale's ministry but I haven't followed through with those considerations because my son is just he type of person that to get back at me he might not let me hang with his kids as much as I'd like. As it now stands, I have pretty much unlimitated access to my grandchildren and I would be broken hearted if I was not allowed to spend time with them. Yet, my son says he reads his Bible and what he reads in the Bible agrees with the SDA church. Please, all of you pray about this and also do you folks have advice for me? Should I order him Proclamation! and some of the books? | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 126 Registered: 7-2004 |
Tracey, I was raised to believe that all Sunday worshippers would some day hunt me down because I refused to go to church on Sunday. When I started going to a wonderful church on Sunday a few years back, a "friend" who is my age (43) told me, "You CAN'T do that! They (meaning Sunday worshipers) aren't God's children!" The same type of comment was made by my mother when I first started attending my non-denominational Bible study 6 years ago. She said, "Oh, can't you find a good SDA study? I just hate to see you get caught up into false beliefs." | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 916 Registered: 11-2002 |
When my mom asked/yelled me if I was a member of the Lutheran church and I told her I am she asked me if I'm taking classes on perscuting the commandment keepers. I was so shocked and disguested at that comment that I went home and had to get my druthers. Then I realized it is the total brain-washing, mind-control that took over. But, yes, that is what Adventists are taught to believe by the organzation. | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 61 Registered: 5-2004 |
Hence my personal crisis of wondering my whole life if when the time came, I'd be willing to die for the Sabbath? Did I love it that much? Wow! How great to love a person...to place that affection and loyalty to God only!!! What a difference that makes! | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 662 Registered: 7-2000 |
Susan, perhaps sending your son magazines and book would not help much...Does he come visit your house? If he sees them at your place, he may be impressed to pick one up to browse. It's hard to say...but I am feeling that a gentle but persistent expressions of who I am IN CHRIST is the best way of defense or offence. Unless the Holy Spirit prompts those in the cult to ask questions, trying to make them see the "Truth" of Jesus alone is frustrating and damaging to ones' peace. Continuing conversations that show the simplicity and security we have in Christ--with no need of Adventism--is hard to argue against... grace always, cindy | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 10 Registered: 9-2004 |
Galatians is truly good! Last night, I introduced him to the idea that the law is not divided into 3 parts, but it is indeed 1 law. He said that Dale has a right to write whatever he wants to write. To which I replied, He has a right but more importantly, this man has done research and puts his life on it AND backs it up with scripture. There is only 1 law and I know you don't want to hear that or believe that. He said no, I don't. WEll, that's about it b/c I give him the books today (Greg Taylor's first)which I am enjoying. So, if we can discredit EGW, prove there is only 1 law, he can't read scripture with the old eyes, right? WEll, I'll be praying. And yes, Galatians, Romans and many others are excellent examples of legalistic issues being addressed. I read a really good article by Dale R. where he said something kinda funny like "I could just quote Romans, Galatians, 1 Cor etc" to prove my point but that's too easy, I will show other (imo, deeper) examples of why the New covenant is it for us" -- obviously paraphrased -- But boy do I appreciate his work unto the Lord. AndI appreciate this forum b/c you guys are the only ones (formers) that I know and Praise God for you all. Susan (my fav name, btw) I once had a dream and in it, C says to me "Tracey, You ARE making a difference" and I instantly woke up. That alone gave me strength not to give up. Personally, your son doesn't sound as open as C, so I would advise being a living testimony rather than giving him books. What do I mean? When something big or small happens, Praise God openly for it by saying Thank you Jesus! You came through again for me! Make references about how you trust Jesus to provide a way or a help for something - -to your son in conversations. Say "I wonder" stuff to your son.. Like "I wonder how Jesus feels about or I wonder what will Jesus say to me when I meet him, or I wonder how Jesus was obedient even to death or Jesus loves us so much, I am so grateful.. More than anything, when you pray with your son and family (esp those kids) Thank God and then Thank God for Jesus dying to take away your sins and give you life. Before I knew any of this SDA stuff, this was how I prayed with C, not realizing that it was doing something in the way he thought of religion and God. In only about 3 months, he told me that he was a Christian first and SDA second and that SDA didn't really matter to him as much as being a Christian. Only now that I better understand SDA stuff, do I realize how powerful his statement was and my being a living witness was making an impact. In Christ and love, I will pray for you and your families. Tracey | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 680 Registered: 12-2003 |
Susan, I also think praying for your son and having "stuff" available without directly offering it when he visits is wise. If I remember right, his wife was raised Catholic, right? He obviously doesn't have a firm hold on Adventism except, perhaps, as an outline for the way he should raise his kids--at least somewhat. He needs the Spirit's softening in his heart. As you embrace your identity in Jesus more and more, your interactions with him and your grandkids will reflect Jesus to them. Tracey, I'm glad to hear that C has Taylor's books as well as Ratzlaff's. I believe that the thing that will most prepare him to really understand what he's reading there (besides prayers for his openness to the Holy Spirit), is being immersed in reading the Bible in context. Adventists think they know the Bible and often are quite proud of their proof texts, memory verses, knowledge of the Bible stories, etc. In reality, however, they generally have almost no understanding of the Bible in context or of its meaning to it original, intended audience. In fact, most Adventists struggle to read the Bible, finding it difficult to comprehend or follow, or just boring. If C is truly open to the truth (and it sounds as if God is leading him to a crisis of faith), the Bible is the place where he will get to know God and understand His will and His heart. Encourage him to be in the word, praying for God to reveal the truth to him. God is faithful! Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 917 Registered: 11-2002 |
I appriciate all your imput very much. I agree that when it comes to this particular son a bold in-his-face approach is not the best way to go. He is the one who is the in-your-face member of the family. Therefore, since he is so bold I think it's best to bite my tongue. And, yes his wife referrs to herself as "a non-practicig Catholic". Before marriage she agreed to leave the religous aspect of their lives to him. (And she takes care of the shopping, ha! ha!, that girl loves to shop). She also told me she had never heard of SDA until she met my son. Now the six year old is taking hip-hop dancing lessons. I'm just waiting to hear about when she goes to school and shows off her hip-hop moves at recess or better yet wants to do her hip-hop dancing at the school (SDA) talent program. The positive is that when they first married my daughter-in-law had no prayer edicut. We'd be having prayer before eating and she'd just blab on the phone like she was unaware anyone was praying. Now my son is deployed and his wife even prays before eating with the kids and she says prayers at bedtime with the kids. | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 11 Registered: 9-2004 |
Does anyone know of any formers in Ohio? Tracey PS- C starts the books on Friday after work. |
