| Author | Message | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 174 Registered: 5-2004 |
I have caught wind that the SDA conferences in many places are pushing a renewed delving into EGW and her writings. I think they figure that you either have to divorce her, or believe her, you can't just ignore her forever. The coming generations aren't going to just live with her ghost without fully embracing or rejecting her influence forever. | ||
| Nancy Registered user Username: Nancy Post Number: 10 Registered: 6-2004 |
Tealeaves, Do you think also that they're doing this b/c of questions from the "Little Flock" & others, about the authenticity of her. If people divorce her as you say, then where does it leave Adventism? A prophet is to be 100% correct in all things and well, she "Aint"!!! They've smoothed over about all they can pretaining to her, don't you think? | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 33 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dd, you sound so much like me! If I may ask, it sounds like your husband is the one holding on to the SDA doctrine? If you believe differently, how do you spend Saturday? Just curious how you do it. I have a friend who felt God was leading her to let her husband lead the spirituality in their home. She was very Baptist, but attended the Catholic church with him, as much as she was against it. He became a born again, on fire for the Lord, Sunday school teacher! But she spent years going along with him because she felt the Lord was asking her to. So I understand your position. It sounds like your husband is open to the New Covenant. Wonderful. Will pray for your family. Bb | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 127 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thanks, Bb. I really appreciate your prayers. This December I have been with my husband 20 years! He was a good guy when I married him but has become a great man...when we married neither of us were faithful SDA's. When our daughter came along I began to feel a need to have God in our home. Of course, that meant we needed to be faithful in our "Sabbath" and church attendence which I did for several years with my husband just basically following along - just going through the motions - while I became involved in leading Sabbath School and the music for church. By this time we had moved to an area that had a very small, very conservative SDA church. That is the first time ever in my life that I began to really see the "screwiness" of the religion. Once our daughter started at the non-denominational school and I saw REAL, joyous and faithful Christians...my journey began. My husband has basically just floated along with me. It wasn't until I decided to leave the SDA church that he became a little more involved in the spiritual raising of the kids. He has grown over the last few years. He did two years of BSF (non-denominational Bible study before we moved - there is not a men's BSF where we live now). What he knows of the New Covenant is what I share from my own study. We live in a town that is heavily SDA populated so that means we have a large variety of different styles to chose from. The church service that we attend is "Celebration-style" -- very Grace oriented and the music is based on Ps. 47:1 (my mother terms it "wild"! and of course hates it!  ) Since our Sabbath is all day/everyday, we no longer call Saturday Sabbath. Our kids are on the swim team with meets at least one weekend a month, sometimes two. We usually will go to church and then take off on a family bike ride or snow ski or a family only activity of some type. We do make Saturday special in that the kids know it is OUR day as a family. This does cause a great deal of anguish for grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins...in fact the cousins are on the swim team with the kids and they only do Sunday meets because of Friday night and Sabbath "regulations". I am sure it causes conflict for them because the cousins tell my kids they are so lucky. It makes for an interesting struggle but I am convinced that God is leading. Because of the unique setting of physically living amongst the legal system of SDA but living spiritually in God's grace, I believe the kids have a rare opportunity to really appreciate God's Covenant with them. It gives me an opportunity to share and preach and live my faith more openly than if we just lived a Christian New Covenant life somewhere else. Does that make sense? I praise God that the Jr. High teacher has seen my love for God enough to even ask me to give worship talks to her students! So, Bb, please tell me your story... | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 176 Registered: 5-2004 |
Nancy, I think that they feel the questions of the younger set, because so many of the SDA kids who grew up in the "don't ask, don't tell" generation are now exiting college and NOT COMING BACK. So they are having to address why. And true, as they look at having to either dicorce or embrace EGW, they see that divorcing her WOULD mean changing their doctrines. So the only thing they can think of doing is embrace her, very subtly and carefully. I think they are coming to an awareness of this crossroads, and people are having to choose their course. This is why prayer for them is so important right now. Le'ts pray that God helps them face EGW and see her writings for what they are. And to look at the Bible and discover the true Gospel message. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 35 Registered: 7-2004 |
Bb & Dd-- Peoples' stories here do sound so much alike that sometimes it is scary. My wife (Raven) was raised SDA, I became one shortly before we were married. My own studies led me to reject a number of SDA beliefs starting with EGW and the IJ. For a while I thought it possible to be SDA without these two glaring errors. My own understanding of grace and the purpose of the law slowly grew from reading the NT, to the point that I could no longer consider my beliefs SDA in any shape or form. But I was still an active member, primarily because of my wife's insistence on being SDA. Years earlier I had quit "sharing" what I found about EGW and SDA doctrines. While I was creating doubts about certain issues, she wasn't going to be swayed from being SDA. I had decided that God cared about relationships with Him rather than memberships, so I chose being together with my family even if it meant being at an SDA church. I know that my wife wasn't comfortable with everything that we might do on Sabbath, but I think we kind of had an unspoken truce. Since I went to church without complaint, she kept quiet about how we spent the day. Not the healthiest of situations! During this time, my wife's understanding of grace and Christian freedom were also increasing. At this point I think our kids started really getting mixed messages (and they were getting old enough to start noticing more of the differences between my wife and I) about what to believe. Our kids were in SDA school and we were both active in the church. We were fortunate enough to find a very grace oriented SDA church, which helped to limit the dissonance. But the messages of legalism are so intwined with everything SDA, that slowly our kids were exposed to more and more of them. I think hearing and seeing the impact of the SDA message on our kids played an important role in opening my wife's eyes about the church. When the Holy Spirit led my wife to many of the same understandings that I had come to years before, I rejoiced. Although I am also sure that all of her relatives and our staunch SDA friends are sure that it is my "fault." I find it interesting that my wife came to the same conclusions through very different routes and, in some cases, for very different reasons. It is clearly easier for our daughters now that we fully agree and we don't have to leave church explaining to them which parts of the teaching we didn't agree with and why (well not too often at least). I still think our one daughter struggles more as a result of the SDA teaching she has heard. She has always been more of a "rules" person in her behavior, so I think the nice, clear answers for everything provided in SDAism still has an appeal for her. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 129 Registered: 7-2004 |
Ric, How old are your daughters? | ||
| Madelia Registered user Username: Madelia Post Number: 87 Registered: 2-2003 |
Ric_b, Thanks for sharing your story. Like you said, the stories have so many similarities. My husband was (and still is) the SDA, and I joined the church before we married. You and Raven give me hope that my husband will come around | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 38 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hope my husband, Rib_b doesn't mind my answering for him, but I also wanted to add a little from my perspective. First of all, our daughters are 11 1/2 and almost 10. Ric and I have been married for 21 years now, so this "truce" had been going on for a very, very long time. I'm humbled and amazed at how God has encouraged Ric and me to be patient with each other all this time! In fact, there was a point just a few short months before my eyes were opened, that I was literally in tears over our situation. I begged God to please bring us into spiritual unity, no matter which direction that went! The dissonance was getting more and more wearisome. I truly thought God would answer by convincing Ric that SDAism was correct (and straighten my thinking out in the process), but I really was at the point (but didn't know it at the time) that if the Holy Spirit could convince me SDAism was wrong, I would be willing to leave it. I just never really thought I would ever see this day--Ric and I together outside of SDAism! As Flying Lady so often says, God is AWESOME! Our younger daughter just wishes we could have got to this point before either of them was born! She's currently hating the process of searching for a new church. Just the other day, she said a group of kids at her public school were discussing which denomination they belong to; one was Catholic, another Baptist, etc. Our daughter felt really bad that she couldn't say what she was. I tried to tell her she's a Christian, but she wanted to be able to say what church we belonged to. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 130 Registered: 7-2004 |
Raven and Ric, Your youngest sounds like my youngest (my son is 9). My husband and I laugh because we say if we were both agnostic he would still be SDA! There is no gray for him - only black and white, a rule is a rule, stick with what you know (like his father - that's why we still attend SDA church and school even though we do not hold any doctrines as truth...! BUT...my husband always tells me to look on the bright side - he won't change wives anytime soon! ). I asked about your daughters to hear how they are doing with the changes in your life. Mine do seem to do well with our non-SDA stance though we still attend SDA...but I always worry. I will continue to pray for all of us in this transition process. Please add my dear husband to your prayers that he will come to a comfortable spot to walk completely away - OR - as Raven prayed - that God will bring it all together for us. THANKS! | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 36 Registered: 7-2004 |
I think both of our daughters would be happier if we were settled into something. Both would like a church with many kids. I think that they are more comfortable now that they feel more like they can just be themselves, without worrying what someone else might say. Shortly after we announced that we were leaving the SDA church we went to dinner with some friends who are SDA, but have many areas where they do not agree with SDA teaching. Throughout dinner we discussed why we left and what our beliefs were. In many cases they agreed with us (but didn't understand why we couldn't stay SDA). In the car after dinner, my oldest daughter remarked, "I didn't know that they felt the same way about so many things." Both girls seem to pay close attention when we explain to others what we believe and why, but neither seems to want to talk directly about any questions they might have. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 552 Registered: 3-2004 |
Ric_b.Raven, Dd, Madelia, All of you and your spouses are in my prayers. I really like to read how God leads people to him. It is good that He is taking each of us out of Satan's clutches. He is awesome. Diana | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 921 Registered: 11-2002 |
Mostly us on here don't check out the bottom discussions. Under "Michael the Archangel" way far down on the list of topics I copied an article from the recent Signs. Please read it and comment. | ||
| Madelia Registered user Username: Madelia Post Number: 88 Registered: 2-2003 |
Thanks for your prayers Diana. Thanks for sharing your stories Ric_b, Raven and Dd. It helps to hear there's hope! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 681 Registered: 12-2003 |
Madelia and Dd, I pray for your husbands, too. Raven and Ric, thank you for your story. It really is encouraging to see that God honors our desires for unity in Him, even if His timing is different from ours. Ultimately, I'm convinced that our ability to know for sure what truth is depends upon our willingness to surrender ourselves to God. Sometimes we even hang onto our careful processes of study as our defense against letting go of everything. (For example, we believe we have been scholarly, prayerful, and careful, and we cling to our beliefs because we can point to our careful process of study.) Ultimately, though, it is surrendering even our confidence in our own searching and allowing God to take us wherever He wishes with no belief in anything we have ever learned before that yields the humility that removes the veil from our eyes. I have seen or corresponded with so many people over the past few years that struggle to know for sure what the truth is, but in reality they can't be certain of truth because they use their own reasoning or research as their testing ground instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to convict them of their brokenness and reveal truth to them. It's very scary, but ultimately we have to be willing to give up to God our abiity to decipher the Bible and to interpret it. We have to come to the place where we admit we really don't know for sure what it says or means in spite of our careful efforts. It's at that point of ultimate weakness that God's strength is made perfect. Colleen | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 34 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hi Dd, I've been busy! I was raised SDA and my husband another denomination. He and I both were not very strong in our religions when we married. But like you when kids came along, I felt the need to bring them up in the church. I was very convinced the SDA church was the only way. My husband was so tolerant and never pushed me to do anything I didn't feel was right. He tried to attend my church but was so puzzled by the lack of gospel teaching. He kept asking me..."what if someone walked in off the street and wanted to know the Lord? He wouldn't have a clue if he sat through the sermons at your church." I had to admit he was right, but didn't know what to do about it. A few years ago we were visiting his church at an evening service, and he gave his heart to Christ. He is different and is more of a spiritual leader now. One night I went to his church to a visiting preacher about cults. He had nightly talks regarding different cults, i.e. Islam, Mormon, Catholic, etc. It was very interesting. After the service I went to talk to him and asked him about SDA. He talked to me very kindly, and gave me the video about EGW and gave me the websites also. With great fear I logged on to the website (Having been told that some would leave the church in the "end" and about the great "shaking" of the church) But my sister and I simply read and read until we realized that it was a farce! Especially when I read about the Millerite movement, and some of the people who told their side of the story, like Kellogg and A.T. Jones in the Pioneer letters. Anyway, God was leading me. I attended BSF at this point, studying the book of John. It was the first time seeing it from an open mind instead of clouded by EGW writings. It was wonderful. However, it is a long road to get rid of the baggage. I am still not honest with a lot of people about it. I can't stand for them to think I am "lost". But I hope to come to that point soon. I enjoyed your story and everyone's stories. We are in this together! | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 107 Registered: 2-2003 |
Colleen, I think the idea of surrendering everything to God before we can really know the truth is a totally Biblical principle. There are lots of verses, but one which comes to mind is Romans 12: 1-2, "Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God - this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is - his good, pleasing and perfect will." (NIV) Other quotable verses would be Matthew 6: 33, and Mark 8: 34-37. The order seems to be, let go, trust God completely, make a decision to accept what he says, and then he will show you his will. It is not completely a leap in the dark, though, as, besides having the word of God to teach us, we also have the testimonies of those who have made this step before us, that God really has been there to meet them. Adrian | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 688 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thank you for the texts, Adrian. I hadn't thought of those in the context of giving up our intellectual pride in order to perceive truth, but they completely apply. Again I'm reminded of Oswald Chambers' statement (not a direct quote, but the meaning's here--) We learn more about God's will/truth from five minutes of obedience than we learn from five months of studying about it. The obedience of surrender is the one to which God brings us over and over, and it's perhaps the hardest obedience of all. It's relatively easy to behave in certain ways when we're convinced we must, but to surrender our feelings and attitudes and confidence and motivations is far harder. Yet that obedience is where we learn the most about God's faithfulness and about reality. Yup, once again I'm faced with needing to give up my penchant to control--but already I know that God sovereignly ordains His will, so why do I think I have to make things happen "right"?! God is so faithful to give me His freedom and peace when I do release to Him whatever I'm worrying about--and who He is suddenly is so much clearer! Colleen | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 132 Registered: 7-2004 |
Colleen, That word obedience is difficult for me to swallow now that I understand the New Covernant Thank you for putting a whole new meaning to the word for me..."the obedience of surrender". It is a glorious thought and as you said, this new way of obeying does make God so much clearer. | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 109 Registered: 2-2003 |
For me, in new covenant terms, obedience involves more following the prompting of the Holy Spirit, rather than adhering to lists of rules - just to totaly over simplify things :-) |
