| Author |
Message |
Jeannette
Registered user
Username: Jeannette
Post Number: 47
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 6:34 pm: |     |
Today,I notice one of my students had a National Sunday book with her. All through class I was wondering if I should even say any thing or what to say. . After class I asked her to stay for a minute which she did. I asked her if she was SDA, she told me she wasn't and that a friend gave her the book, that she said it was about what is going to happen in the future. I told her to please go to the egwhite.org website and read about the author before she reads the book. I couldn't keep my mouth shut. I hope I did the right thing. Please pray for me that I may say the right thing, for her to not get sucked into sdaism, and for her friend to find the truth.
Thanks |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 702
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 7:40 pm: | |
Jeannette, I think God allowed you to see that girl's book so you could say something to her. I realize that in public school, you have to be more careful than in a private school--but God is sovereign, and He can take care of this whole situation. I am praying that God will provide the opportunities AND the words for you to say in the future if there should be further conversation about this subject with her. I'm also praying that the girl will be protected, that her friend also will find the truth, and that God will glorify Himself through this situation.
Praising Him for being in charge of reality,
Colleen |
Pheeki
Registered user
Username: Pheeki
Post Number: 392
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 8:17 am: | |
Has anyone heard an update on how the Passion books are selling at Wal-mart? |
Vchowdhury1
Registered user
Username: Vchowdhury1
Post Number: 31
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 2:24 pm: | |
Jeannette, I would have done the same thing. I can't stand that book  . My parents have it on their dinning room table, and I can't tell you how many times I was tempted to throw it away when they weren't looking (but it wouldn't do any good because they would just get more). A lot of those "Sunday-Law" books and pamphlets that the sda's distribute have a lot of reference material in them from other outside "sources" pointing to a "soon to come" Sunday-Law. It would be interesting if someone would find out if these so-called sources even exist at all! I have a feeling that they don't, and most or all of them were made up by the sda church.
|
Derrell
Registered user
Username: Derrell
Post Number: 31
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 4:01 pm: | |
"National Sunday Law" isn't put out by the SDA Church. It is written, published, and distributed by an extremist off-shoot named Jan Marcussen. He has been disfellowshipped, and defrocked. If you think that book is something, you ought to see his newsletter. He thinks that everyone is a Jesuit. In his latest letter he claims that the Salvation Army is is the army of Rome, insidiously preparing to attack. Look out guys, they just might ring your bell! LOL |
Vchowdhury1
Registered user
Username: Vchowdhury1
Post Number: 32
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 4:18 pm: | |
Derrell, then why do you think this book in sda homes and churches??
--Valerie |
Derrell
Registered user
Username: Derrell
Post Number: 32
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 4:52 pm: | |
Lots of these people are predisposed to jump on anything that smacks of apocalyptic. They grew up with the beasts, dragons, horns, women, and timelines of prophecy instead of the love of Christ. In every person there is a spiritual hole. We seek out ways to fill that hole, and if we don't know Jesus, we will take what we are taught is the most important spiritual thing and use that. We have traditionally started all of our evangelistic campaigns with the study of Daniel & Revelation. When we go into a community to do outreach, we start with a Revelation Seminar. All of these studies are centered around Rome changing the Sabbath, Rome persecuting Sabbath keepers, and ending with a great apocalypse based on the national Sunday law. In short, Jan is feeding them what they want even though he has been thrown out of the church.
It is so sad, but I do see the church changing. Some of the evangelists have relegated Daniel & Revelation to a small part in the middle of the series, and some have even stopped using it. Why? Back in the nineteenth century it was not only popular, it was actually politically correct. Times have changed, and the church is starting to realize that if they don't change, the long term results will be catastrophic. Stuff like Jan's material is still popular among the older generations, but the 0-34 demographic is leaning more towards the Gospel, Praise God. |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 382
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 5:18 pm: | |
Derrell, I have read Marcussen's book "National Sunday Law". It is entirely consistent throughout with the writings of Ellen G. White, especially material contained in the last several chapters of Great Controversy. In my opinion, there is nothing "extremist" about this book at all from a purely SDA world view. It is quite basic to SDA doctrine. Can you point out somethign in Marcussen's book that is more extreme than what was written by EGW (who is referred to by the denomination as an "authoritative source")?
Chris |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 383
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 5:50 pm: | |
Derrel, I am already repenting of hitting "post" on that last message. I hope you will forgive me for the rather emotional tone. The emotion was not directed at you, but was stirred up by my memories of the many people who tried to talk me into staying in Adventism because it was changing. I actually don't believe that it truly is. I believe the younger generation is much more ignorant about SDA doctrine and history and are therefore more "cultural SDAs" than anything else. However, I see very few in the laity and no one in the leadership who is willing to denounce EGW as a false prophet and repent for promoting her teachings. I do not believe that any real meaningful change can come until the SDA leadership is willing to do this. Many have talked about the amazing transformation of the WWCOG, but we must remember that it all had to start with renouncing Armstrong and his teachings. In contrast, there are many SDAs who might say in casual conversation that they don't really believe all that Sunday law stuff, however, if you read them one of the many clear statements from EGW on this matter they would immediately change their tune and begin revising their position. Perhaps I am wrong, but I am currently convinced that the change in Adventism is one of ignorance as opposed to one based upon a knowledge of the Word and a rejection of false teaching. My apologies once again if I am too passionate on this topic, but I feel we do no one any favors by overlooking the dark theology that underlies SDA doctrine and belief.
Chris |
Cindy
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Username: Cindy
Post Number: 670
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 8:40 pm: | |
Chris, I so agree with you! I don't think you are overstating the case of Adventisms' darkness.
The growth of the "cultural SDA" mindset has been huge in just the past few years. You know, in some ways, I can at least respect the "historic", more legalistic Adventists. At least they are trying to live honestly... studying and living what Ellen White taught!
Yes, it will take Adventists personal and public (denominational) acknowledgement of Ellen Whites' true status as a FALSE PROPHET before Christ can assume His true position as LORD. (Along with a statement of repentence in promoting her as a "messenger" bearing "truth" for these end times.)
And what would be left? Only Jesus...Who has always been Enough!
grace always,
cindy |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 708
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 11:51 pm: | |
Chris, I also agree with you completely. I do not see Adventism changing. The only "change", as you mentioned, is the fact that the younger generation(s) have been less well educated in its doctrines. They are, after all, truly strange when seen beside evangelical Christianity. The church has been trying very hard to whaitewash its public image. They even call themselves a mainstream evangelical church on their website. The fact is, they are not.
Adventism is dangerous. It is not at all what it tries to pose as being. As one person I know said, after leaving the church after spending 15 years as an Adventist converted from Christianity, "For 15 years I lost my joy in the Lord." Such deception can only come from one source: evil.
And I've often thought the same thing Cindy says above; the historic Adventists are much more honest than the liberal ones who make up their own rules and ignore the history of their church.
Colleen |
Melissa
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Username: Melissa
Post Number: 485
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 8:07 am: | |
When B tried to use the "church is changing" line on me, he pointed out how his father used to not baptize people if they wore jewelry (even if it was only a wedding ring). And SOME SDA churches included meat at their potlucks now. Neither of those issues has a single thing to do with the clear gospel or Christ. B still contends that the "gospel" is milk and there are deeper things of Christ to learn about (such as law). He also has made comments like "well, you think the gospel needs to be presented at every service...." Well, dah, yes, I do. B had a whole box of those national sunday law books for distributing. He claimed he didn't believe "everything" in the book, but he believed much of it to be true and it was given out at his church by his church members.
Just the view from my side of the world.... |
Derrell
Registered user
Username: Derrell
Post Number: 33
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 10:26 am: | |
You get me wrong. I don't for one minute believe that everything is now as it should be. Expecting anything as dramatic as the WWCOG any time soon would be unrealistic. That wont happen. What I do observe, at least in the NAD, is that among the younger laity (and some pastors and leaders) there is a movement towards becoming more Bible/Gospel oriented. Many people my age and younger don't adhere to EGW, and don't believe the many prophecies, timelines, etc. The church is not a whole new entity, it is in a slow process of change. This change is happening from the bottom up, not from the top down. I believe that there is great potential in it for the salvation of many people who WILL NOT leave the denomination. This may take many years, but any grass-roots movement toward the Gospel is to be lauded, and I praise God for it.
Of course the Gospel needs to be presented at every service. It is appalling to see "Christian" leaders who don't agree with that. In terms of works, you will find a bazillion examples of pastors who place that above the Gospel, you will find a ton of people will distribute Jan's book, but you will also find that God has many people in the SDA church "for such a time as this", and He is working through them to accomplish his ends. As Diana says, God is awesome. |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 711
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 2:38 pm: | |
You're right, Derrell, God does have many people in Adventism through whom He is working to accomplish His ends. It reminds me of Ephesians 1:11-12, our memory verse for women's Bible study this week: "In him we were also chosen, acccording to the plan of Him who works out everything in comformity to the purpose of his will, in order that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory."
Notice that phrase, "...who works out everything in conformity to the purpose of his will." I find it very significant that the text does not say he works it out "in conformity to his will." Rather, it wouks out in conformity to he PURPOSE of his will.
The fact is that a great many things happen that are not according to God's will, yet He can work out his purposes in spite of the human sin that flies in the face of God's will. As God gets our hearts, His work in us is to bring us more and more into His likeness, more and more into conformity not only to his purposes but also to His will.
I still believe that those who do find Jesus will, as they continue to grow in Jesus, embrace truth at increasingly deep levels in themselves and will move increasingly away from false doctrine and from the endorsement of error by being part of it, even superficially. But as I've said before, the time table for all of us who have left and who are still discovering Jesus is in God's hands. Why did it take me over 40 years? I've no idea, but I know that God had to do a lot of work in me for over 4 decades in order to bring me to the place of seeing the seriousness and the depth of His call on me.
The problem with the grass-roots movement inside Adventism is that it's still compromised. Yes, Jesus is getting ahold of many people's hearts and convicting them that He is the only way to God--He and nothing and no one else. Grass-roots movements do accomplish a lot, but they often don't change what's already established. Rather, they yield new ideas, new "products", new movements. Inside Adventism, the only way true Biblical reform will happen is if the leaders become convicted and turn to Jesus, repenting for their sins of deception and cover-ups. A grass-roots movement may form a new fellowship, but it won't reform the church.
The church, in fact, is firmly established with not only theological principles but with deep financial deals that keep it firmly in place. In many ways, I believe the Adventist church is much like the Mormon church or the Catholic church in this respect. The "church" is a clean-looking front for a powerful financial, political machine that has alliances with other "macines" that the common member would probably disbelieve.
You can't build the gospel on top of a lie. If, for example, the Mormon church experienced a church-wide reform, discovered the gospel, exposed its secrets, and gave up its financial entanglements, do you suppose the Christian world would be comfortable with the Mormon church continuing to exist only as a newly evangelical church? I suspect not. We would tend to see any continuation of Mormonism as compromised, and we would want to see its members become part of the larger body of Christ, fellowshiping with established Christian congregations.
Same with Adventism. Adventists who have "found grace" and no longer "believe" in EGW or teach her are, nonetheless, shaped subliminally by her. Even the 20-something Adventists I meet are shaped by her, and they think they don't need or believe in her. And I've found a really disturbing theme among the "grace-based" Adventists that I meet and write to. That theme is a focus on "the character of God" and his great love and friendship with us. The flip side to this emphasis is that God is not a God of justice and wrath towards evil. Since Jesus, God's wrath and justice have been spent, and we need not ever fear them again.
This teaching is not the gospel. What is the good news if it is not that we are saved from the wrath of God who cannot abide evil in His presence? God's justice and mercy are equally eternal parts of Himself. It's a paradox.
I know this sounds pretty hard-nosed, but I have come to believe that as long as one remains Adventist, he or she will never be able to really see the truth in the Bible. Only when one is willing to give up every single thing he has ever believed and releases his confidence in his own "scholarship" to God, submitting before Him to be taught from scratch what His word says, will he be able to really find the Jesus of the Bible and discover the truth inside it.
God demands complete surrender from us, not just surrrender of the things in our lives. He requires the surrender of our minds and our knowledge and our faith and our trust.
Oops--I got onto my soapbox again! In short, I respect and understand where you're coming from, Derrell, regarding the grass-roots movement in Adventism, but I just don't see it at all the way it looks to you. Ultimately, we have to give it all up in order to know God's will for us. Every person is challenged by the Holy Spirit to trust God with everyting we think we know or believe in. Only when we do that will the truth begin to emerge clearly.
Praise God for the Holy Spirit!
Colleen |
Helovesme2
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Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 13
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 3:03 pm: | |
There were some people about twenty years ago who started preaching in Adventist churchs (and maybe others too, I don't know) that God is too loving to punish or kill. That all God does is steps back and lets Satan do his dirty work. There was a book written by Mike Clute called "Into the Father's Heart" I think that was one of the main books I remember them sharing.
There is a real problem with this idea though. The Bible says that " As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten" Rev. 3:19. And what earthly father would not punish and discipline his children but rather call in his enemy to do it?
God is merciful. He is also Just. It is a solemn and aweful thing to throw ourselves into God's hands. He is perfectly trustworthy, but He is not safe - at least not in the way we usually think of safety. Being kept by Him does not mean no sorrow. In fact sometimes it seems for the present time like more. It does not mean that we will always feel secure. We are truely secure, but the storm still beats upon us even while hidden in His Hands, and we feel the wind and the waves.
Neither does it mean that we are promised an easier life than a non-Christian. Jesus said, "In this world you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world!"
The promise we do have is that He is with us "even unto the end of the world". That he is come to give us life, and that more abundantly. That he HAS OVERCOME the wicked one and that we can live with Him eternally.
Praise be to God for His marvelous riches in Christ Jesus!
helovesme2 |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 713
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 11:09 am: | |
Helovesme2, thank you for your really moving post above. I love your sentence, "He is perfectly trustworthy, but He is not safe--at least not in the way we usually think of safety."
That reminds me of the comment that appears throughout CS Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia when people say of Aslan, the lion that represents Jesus, "He is good, but He is not safe. He's not a tame lion, you know!" A god who does not have ultimate power over everything is not the true God. The fact that our God does have ultimate power and justice and wrath and mercy makes His grace to us so much more amazing and compelling. That He loves us enough to die for us when He is the God of ultimate justice is unimaginable.
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Spirit!
Colleen |
Belvalew
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Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 39
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 12:34 pm: | |
I'm posting in response to some statements made by Colleen a couple of posts above this. I agree with you that a grass roots reform won't really have an effect on the SDA church as a whole. The brass who are in charge are totally dependent on the wealth of the church for their positions and as long as they are unwilling to tell the truth about Jesus, about EGW, and about mistaken doctrines, the church will remain as it currently is. If SDAism were to acknowledge the mistakes made by the founders of the church, false doctrines incorporated, and the true gospel misunderstood, then the "specialness" of the SDA church would disappear. Their only claim to fame would possibly be vegetarianism, and that would also lose its "spiritual" hold on the people within the church because that would then have to become merely a personal choice.
Adventism seems to like being "a peculiar people." Mainstreaming the SDA church would take that away. As someone else just mentioned, if the mistakes are acknowledged, then the reason for the denomination to exist at all would disappear. |
Dennis
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Username: Dennis
Post Number: 175
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 2:45 pm: | |
Even if the top brass of the SDA Church were to acknowledge and repent of their deceptions and sins, the theological untruths would continue to quietly permeate the entire denomination. For example, in our transition out of Adventism, my wife and I attended the local Worldwide Church of God for a few months. Ironically, there were people in this WCG congregation that were seriously thinking of worshipping at the SDA Church.
Legalism is still very much alive in local WCG congregations. Their theological changes in 1995, while excellent and laudable in themselves, only created more division locally (i.e., numerous splinter groups, disunity among remaining members, theological ignorance, etc). Without their being totally united in preaching the Gospel, they not only fail to grow as a church but ultimately the loser is the individual member.
With all the baggage in their background, I suggested to the pastor that the local WCG should change its name in order to experience vibrant growth. In an email several months ago, this same WCG pastor mentioned that he was thinking of changing the name of his Worldwide Church of God congregation. While a name change would help in witnessing in the community, the unsolved problem of a core group of believers that don't really understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ is their most serious handicap.
All in all, there is no valid reason for their continued existence as a church. The few remaining WCG members would be spiritually better off in worshipping with another established Christian church down the street. The same would hold true with the SDA Church in any type of changes, whether from the top or from the bottom rung.
Dennis J. Fischer |
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 935
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 3:33 pm: | |
Believe me, I have attended a lot of WCG meetings. I even went to the Feast several times. At one point many years ago I asked the WCG minister about actually becomming a member of that organization. He told me he had heard I was attending the local college majoring in nursing. And, he asked me if that was correct. I told him it was correct. He told me I could not be a member of the WCG and be in the health care field as all healing is by God only. I thought he was stupid and I never went back after that meeting. Those people used to be totally spun. I see the WCG ad in the local newspaper each week and they meet at a hall on Sunday mornings. I've never attended. The local SDA church rents out their social hall on Saturday afternoons to a group that considers itself to be the true and historical WCG. One thing good about that is that it gets the SDA's out by 1:30 sharp because the WCG group starts their service at 2:00. I even went to San Francisco to hear Garner Ted and I have heard him in Pasadena several times, too. Once when I was in the 5th grade many years ago at Fresno Adventist Academy my teacher held up an issue of The Plain Truth and asked if any of us in the class got that magazine at our house. Me and a boy raised our hands. Then the teacher had me and him stay in at recess while she told us that she realized we were kids and had no control over what our parents got but that we were not to look at the magazine or read it because satan was trying to trick our parents because satan knew that the WCG had the truth of the Sabbath and maybe he (satan) could get our families to switch from the true church (SDA) to a false church (WCG). I went stright home and told my parents what my teacher had said and my dad telephoned my teacher and told her it was none of her businrss what magazines he got in his home and she'd best not keep me in at recess anymore to tell me her goofy balonga. I sure do miss my dad. He passed away nearly two years ago. He was 93 when he passed. His father corrosponded with Herbert W. Armstrong. But, then he (my grandfather) became SDA. |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 715
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 9:17 pm: | |
Today we were watching a video called "Transformations" about four different cities, one close to us--Hemet--which experienced great changes when the churches in the towns united and began praying for God to work. Drug dens were shut down, gangs began to disintegrate, public schools got more Christian teachers, etc.
As I watched it I was thinking about Adventism (of course), and my continual feeling of frustration over praying for the Adventist church. I know people whose dedication to truth and the gospel are powerful, and they pray for God to transform the Adventist church. I have struggled with feelings of guilt and even anxiety because I can't bring myself to pray that prayer. I pray for God to draw the honest in heart to Himself, to reveal the truth about Adventism, etc. But I just can't pray for the Adventist church to experience reform--for all the reasons Dennis and others mentioned above.
Today it struck me for the first time how I need to pray for the Adventist church: I need to pray that God will expose and break the demonic spirit that controls/owns the church and its doctrines and blinds its members to what's really going on, and I need to pray that God will set the members free to be able to hear and accept the gospel.
After all, would we pray for God to reform the Mormon church or the Jehovah's Witnesses, or would we pray that God would open the eyes of their members and draw them out?
Somehow I feel a great relief having figured out how to pray about it.
Colleen |
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 578
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 8:59 am: | |
God bless you Colleen for admitting this.
I just pray that God get ahold of each individual's heart from the president of the GC on down to the smallest SDA church in the world. I have no idea how He will do it, or when, but I know He will. Then it is that individual's responsibility to accept God or not. Whether the SDA church is reformed in the process is not my responsibility, that is God's. It is amazing how awesome God is. Each of us prays differently, but the Holy Spirit takes our prayers to God with groanings we could never understand, but God does.
Hallelujah!!! God is awesome.
Diana |
Praisegod
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Username: Praisegod
Post Number: 117
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 10:39 am: | |
I agree that the SDA institution is not where the focus of our prayers should be. Rather, it's the people who need to be touched, transformed and held accountable by God if they are knowingly misleading people.
It's like Jesus' short analogy that you can't put new wine into old wineskins. Unfortunately, the pure gospel is new wine for SDAs. Inputting that would burst the institutional wineskins. Biblically it seems God will not choose to transform the denomination.
I wish everyone could see the Transformation videos. God wants to work more miracles like that.
Praise God... |
Tealeaves
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Username: Tealeaves
Post Number: 180
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 2:09 pm: | |
I have heard about the Transformations video. Where can I get a hold of a copy of it? Anyone know? |
Praisegod
Registered user
Username: Praisegod
Post Number: 118
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 3:13 pm: | |
Just did some quick checking and found it here:
http://www.faithandworkresources.com/store_list.asp?searchtype=Product+Title&keywords=&categoryid=400
I would think it's available many places.
Praise God... |
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 936
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 9:48 pm: | |
Chris, your post up above is interesting. The term "cultural adventists" is a good term because I, too, know there are many younger sda's who haven't a clue what their own denomination stands for other than the Sabbath, the health message and a few other sda quirks. My young cousin pastors a sda church down in the Southeran California area and his little daughter in taking dancing lessons. Because of family dynamics I don't say anything other than, "Oh, I'll bet she looks really cute in her tutu" and trash talk like that but what I'd really like to say is, "You are a sda minister. Haven't you even read the 27 fundamentals or the baptizm requirements for your own church? In both of those documents dancing is forbidden." And, then make a statement about maybe the family needs to think sda'ism over a bit more thoroughally. I attended a California public university and I loved taking sociology classes. One class I took was about the different cultures that are distinctly unique to the USA. And, in this class Mormon was listed as a unique American culture. Apparently the sociologists have decided that many Mormons are cultural Mormons more so than religous Mormons. It was very interesting and when I took that class I thought if I go on and get a Masters Degree in sociology then maybe I can do my thesis on Cultural Adventism. Just a thought. The thing is tho when I point out to the SDA's I know the contradictions between what they say and what the SDA 27 fundamentals or the baptisim statements are I generally just get shinned on or they say something about explaining it to me later and walk away or they just tell me off. These are very cultic behaviours from the individuals. So, I generally bite my tongue. |
Tracey
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Username: Tracey
Post Number: 32
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 10:59 am: | |
Colleen,
Yes, please pray this way. I believe it is the Holy Spirit leading you.
Tracey |
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