| Author | Message | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 46 Registered: 7-2004 |
I just wanted to share with yall that things are looking up with my fiance'. Her mother still doesn't want us to get married. But her father spilled alot of beans to her this weekend about the SDA people and he is an SDA minister. It suprised me the things that he said about her mother to her. Mainly, things like, "you mother is only practicing Christianity. She feels that the only way for her to become righteous is that she become a more devout Adventist. And that she is wrong." That was only one thing. Then he went on to asail the Adventist community as applying too many rules. He feels that Adventists make God out to be an oppressive God. He doesn't agree with so many of their doctirines. He, in a nutshell is still confused though. Eventhough he has these feelings towards SDA, he still teaches it. He broke down the conferences and basically told me that the SDA organization isn't any different than Catholic structure. To be a minister you need a degree and a good resume'. The spirit doesn't lead you to a church to lead. The president of whatever conference approves you, then you must go before a committee. Then they send you to a church that they feel you would be a good fit. Yall already know this but it was news to me. I compared it to working for a fortune 500 company, and he said that it was just like that. But the best part was when he supported my telling her to read and understand the Bible for herself and stop taking the word of everyone that stands up in the pulpit at her church. She was speechless the entire night. She is even going to my church homecoming this weekend. Boy did I never ever see this one coming. There are monumental walls there, but the first stone has begun to fall, and I know that Jesus Christ is up to the challenge of breaking down those walls for me. I will just wait and see what lands in my hands. She is doubting so much now. A simple conversation like that seemed to weigh heavy on her heart. I guess because her father is an SDA minister and she respects his insight. Wow, I am excited. Next topic, I have classified my life. I am currently in the wilderness, the valley of the shadows of death, on the boat while Jesus Christ is sleeping and storms are raging during his rest. I reach these points everytime my connection with God dwindles over time. When I first reconnect, it is like blessings over flowing. After about two weeks I forget the game plan of consulting God about every single decision in my life and start making them on my own. That is when my life becomes stagnant and I begin panicking. Okay, that is it. Just wanted to clear my chest | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 19 Registered: 9-2004 |
Oh boy! Exciting news to hear! And HRob.. Absolutely you must seek for everything! You're crazy not to!  And that doesn't mean that you don't take steps toward your goal, but even Israel didn't expect the seas to part, they just started walking! So you keep moving forward as you prayerfully put EVERYTHING before God. I don't know if you have read any of my threads.. But my bf also visits Oakwood and his family also, but Guess what? he's reading Greg Taylor's book and after 31 years as an SDA (give or take) He says now that he's a Christian first and SDA second. He is DEVOURING Taylor's book and says he can't argue the points he makes. I won't get married until he's out of it though. But God is doing something in the hearts of our loved ones and for many SDAs seeking true acceptance in the love of Jesus. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 482 Registered: 7-2003 |
I hope great things for the fiances' of both of you. Keep praying, and keep guarding your heart. (don't I sound like a broken record and a wet blanket?) Keep looking to God to finish HIS work, in his time. I do think it is a huge thing for the dad to tell his child such truths. How she must be reeling from everything. It's a great deal to process. It's hard to lose one's foundation. I suspect she'll have a hard time knowing what to recognize as real or true from her life to this point. She will especially need to know she still has Jesus though all man-made things fall away. Keep sharing Christ and his love with her. And I would suspect her mother might have a thing or two to say if she gets wind of the conversation which could send her into an even greater tailspin. Keep pointing her to Christ and his word and hopefully when she lands, it will be on HIS firm foundation. | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 139 Registered: 6-2004 |
I find it rather unusual that a SDA minister who disagrees with their own doctrine yet continues to teach it to their congregation. So much for practicing what you preach. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 42 Registered: 7-2004 |
Except a number of SDA pastors don't teach or preach ALL of the SDA beliefs. I have mixed feelings about whether that is a good or a bad thing. On the one hand people may be hearing messages that are more Biblical and Christ-centric; on the other hand, it may shield people from seeing the false gospel of historic SDAism. I won't presume anyone's motives, but simply note what a strong pull the SDA church continued to have on many of us, even after rejecting many of the doctrines. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 565 Registered: 3-2004 |
Hrob, I am excited for you, in spite of what I said when you first wrote on here. But as Melissa said, guard your heart and keep in constant contact with God. He is interested in every little thing in your life. Tracey, I am so glady your bf is reading that book. But both of you, please do not marry any one unless they are definitely out of the SDA church for a period of time. Just pray about it and I continue to pray for both of you and your friends. God is awesome. Diana | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 112 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hrob and Tracey, great developments! After all, we have all been praying for these things for a few weeks! Don't be too surprised when God answers prayer, LOL. Don' forget to thank him either, though. God bless, and keep on praying! Adrian | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 697 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hrob and Tracey, praise God for what He is doing. I have to reiterate the caution to guard your hearts--but praise God for His work at the same time. Actually, Pw, there are many SDA ministers who don't believe--or who believe selectively, as Ric_b has said. They stay, though, because it is their bread-and-butter--and where would they go if they left? They can't walk into a pastoral position anywhere else. I'm afraid that a fair percentage of these "non-believing" pastors are not well- grounded in Jesus. They have intellectual dissonance with the church, and they know their integrity is compromised, but they don't have a relationship with Jesus to walk toward. To be fair, I must say some do have a relationship with Jesus--but many really don't. They are in a strange, uncomfortable place of feeling they don't "fit" anywhere. So they stay. But I'm really happy about the recent developments. Hrob, Melissa is undoubtedly right--your fiancee will probably have much confusion and disorientation after hearing the things he dad said. Keep praying for and with her, and keep encouraging her to read the Bible. There is amazing peace and resolution waiting for her in Scripture. Colleen | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 140 Registered: 6-2004 |
Colleen, isn't it a dangerous situation to continue to preach lies even when you know you don't believe them yourself. Even if they are being selective in their teachings, they are not presenting the gospel truth. The Bible does say that those who teach are held accountable because they are supposed to be representing the Word of God. I'm sure if they had the faith required to leave, God would provide for their needs. I'm sure that fear has a grip on them in similar ways that we had to contend with but we trusted in God to lead us rather than a paycheck. | ||
| Carol_2 Registered user Username: Carol_2 Post Number: 167 Registered: 2-2002 |
Unless we are in their shoes, I don't think we can understand or judge them. Many of these pastors would have nothing if they left, no retirement, no paycheck, having worked many, many years in the denomination. It's easy to say, but I know when I trusted God to lead, I didn't have to give up nearly that much. A pastor I know is so Christ-centered, and preaches the gospel, that if you didn't know better you would never dream you were in an SDA church. I would love to have him as my pastor still if I didn't have to attend an SDA church to achieve that. Just my two cents.... | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 20 Registered: 9-2004 |
Hrob, 1. Have you asked your fiancee to read the Greg Taylor book? 2. Is your fiancee really serious about knowing the Lord or is she half-heartedabout living for the Lord even under SDA? I ask this b/c it's significant.. C was receptive to the book b/c He truly seeks God on matters and lives holy. Therefore, if that book were to provide insight into hindrances in his relationship with God, using the Word of God, he is open. But if your fiance is kinda lukewarm about God, your first step might be to challenge her to take her committment to the Lord to a new level. Know what I mean? Tracey | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 699 Registered: 12-2003 |
Pw, your question is good. I've come to believe that God leads us out on His own timetable. What none of us can see is how God is working inside each individual. Yes, I do believe there's a problem with representing something one no longer believes. It's an integrity issue, and yes, I believe God does hold us accountable for our witness. Here's how I understand it based on my own experience. God leads us to Himself one step at a time. While we were inside Adventism, there was a period of time when I know God was using us inside the church to speak the truth. As we were discovering the gospel, the things we would say and do and write, etc., changed. The time came, however, when it was clear to us that God's next open door for us was the door that led out of the church. We had been praying for God to reveal His will and, if it was His will that we leave the church, to make that very clear and to open our way to leave. (We were very entangled in it--clients, church responsibilities, etc.) One by one God closed doors and extricated us from our responsibilities, and we knew it was His doing. When that door out finally stood open in front of us, we knew we had to leave--but we were full of grief and fear. (At least I was! Richard had processed a lot of his emotions along the way--more than I had.) Leaving meant losing my largest client, and that meant not knowing how we'd pay the bills. I have two observations about this point in our journey. First: what really pushed us out was realizing we couldn't expect our boys to mature as truthful men of honesty and integrity if we stayed in a system we believed was wrong but tried to live like Christ-followers in order to "make a difference". We realized we couldn't leave our names on a membership list that espoused what we had come to believe were hesesies if not outright blasphemy. As long as we were members, people would see us as endorsing the church, even if we didn't see eye-to-eye with it. Our real push to leave came from realizing we could not model that kind of personal compromise to our boys. Second: I believe that God definitely uses people inside the church to speak for Him and to make a difference as long as they are actively seeking and following Him. And sometimes that process extends for years, as it did with us. Greg Taylor is another who illustrates this point. God blessed his ministry as Greg continued to know and follow after Him. But when such a person reaches a point where he is reluctant or unwilling to follow God's leading into the next step of one's journey of faith, at that point God can't use that person's influence nearly as much, because that person has reached a point of refusing to follow or of compromising with God. If, on the other hand, the person decides to risk whatever may come and follow God, even if that means leaving the church, God will supply whatever they need. Matthew 6:31-34 records Jesus admonishing us not to worry about what we will eat or drink or wear. Pagans, he says, worry about such things, but our heavenly Father knows we need these things. Instaed, we are to seek His kingdom and His rightesouness, and all these things will be given to us as well. What many people have found and are still finding is this: when they knew God was leading them out of the church and they followed, not knowing how they would pay their bills, God provided. God does not usually let us know in advance how He will provide, but He does provide. He has ways of meeting our needs that we cannot imagine. Dale Ratzlaff, Greg Taylor, Richard Fredericks, Clay Peck, Mark Martin, Jeffrey Helsius--these are all examples of people who have left entirely on faith yet God has miraculously provided for them. As Greg Taylor says, "Where He leads, He provides!" On one hand, we cannot always know by observing where a person is in God's revelation of truth and God's call on his life. God will honor all who seek Him and want to serve Him, and He will glorify Himself through them. But when we know truth and fear acting on it, we can expect that our "usefulness", for want of a better word, will be compromised. Further, fear of the unknown and fear of the life-threatening risks paralyzes us, and when we give in to it, we inhibit our continued growth in Jesus and keep ourselves from discovering His faithfulness and mercy at new, more vulnerable levels. Praise God for providing for us beyond what we can even think or ask! Colleen | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 141 Registered: 6-2004 |
Colleen. Thanks for the insight. I didn't mean to come off sounding rude, but I just had a problem with a minister (be it SDA or any denomination) preaching a message or a section of the Bible he doesn't believe himself. I've read that some pastors don't believe in the actual creation process, or Adam and Eve or Noah's Ark, but regard them as fables. I do agree that if we are truly seeking to follow him and not a person, then God will open doors because without faith, it's impossible to please God. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 566 Registered: 3-2004 |
I know an ex SDA minister in No. Virginia who left the SDA church with a little less than 20 years work. He did not wait for the 20 years and God has blessed him and his wife. He is the one who taught my son some things about the Bible truths. So, as Colleen says, if you are listening to God and do what he wants without hesitation, He will provide. He is truly an awesome God. Diana | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 47 Registered: 7-2004 |
Okay, yesterday I was happy today I am sad. Her mother is causing all sorts of issues. I mean, I am really a good guy. But she listens to her mother. Her mother is telling her that she cannot see because she is blinded by love and if she marries me then I will make her life miserable. What is the meaning of all of this? The closer we get to the actual day, it seems the more viscious her mother's attacks on me are. She will never tell me to my face. But she gets her alone and fills her head with stuff. I get off of work and go pick her up yesterday afternoon. And all of a sudden she wants to go to her pastor for she and I to get "Christian" counseling. We had already had an appointment to see the pyschiatrist that my insurance covers. Between she and I things are great. Her mother literally causes alot of issues. Her father expressed his issues about her mother. But she still heeds her words. Am I that bad of a person? From speaking to me spirit to spirit. Do I seem threatening, or ill hearted? Be honest because I am sad right now. I don't know why she is causing so many issues. Her daughter and I have known each other for 3 years. She was always so supportive of us until we actually got engaged. Now since then it has been an all out onslaught of slurs against me. Her father thinks that I am perfect for her. But she doesn't always take his word. She listens to her mother more than anything. I don't mean to cry on yall's shoulders. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 483 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hrobinsonw, 100% support. You are a threat to the mother, and that is plain and simple to see. Not because of you personally, per se, but because you threaten to expose the lies in Adventism and open the daughter's life up to the truth of Christ. The father seems to want his daughter to have the freedom that he does not have as a denominational employee...literally "living through your child". The mother, as you have said elsewhere, still believes in the religion, which means ANY non-SDA is the enemy, but once she is out of her parent's home, their influence may diminish and I'm sure her mother is trying to do her best to "protect" her child from what she must perceive as a threat to her "salvation". If daughter can't put you above her mother now, that may continue in marriage. As an adult, it is extremely difficult in some family situations to transition from the child to an adult in the parent-child relationship. And because of the things her father said, she may cling to her mother's words because it is what she has always known, they aren't challenging her foundation, but affirming it. I had once contemplated seeing if B would go to counselling, even with his pastor, but had to come to realize his pastor would only affirm what I didn't want, which was that we were unequally yoked and had no business being together since I was an apostate ... even if he worded it "nicely". I wouldn't be that much more comfortable with a secular influence. Believe me when I say I understand that you want to marry this girl, and I understand deeply the desire to "straighten her out", even if that's not the way you see it ... that is the reality of it. You can't walk on two different spiritual roads and think you're going to end up in the same place. I literally began to feel that to follow Christ the way he was leading meant totally looking the opposite direction from the where B and I were headed. It was a literal sensation and that was very odd. Only you can make the decisions in front of you, but heed the warning signs you're seeing. This woman has to decide if she can truly leave her father and mother and become one with YOU ... even at the cost of alienating family. You've heard in-law jokes...but they're no joke when they're the life you're living. And we haven't tossed in the kids yet. Chris has stories posted here somewhere about influence of his in-laws. These are redflags to the future. I married a man (my first husband) who's mother was fine until a couple of weeks before the wedding. She knew we went to church on Sunday mornings, but started inviting him to breakfast at 9 am on Sunday mornings. She promised him his "favorites". He went. I told him in no uncertain terms that if he wasn't making church a priority in our family life, there would be nothing but conflict. Even at that late date, I wished I had heeded my own red flags because she continued to manipulate him to make him pick her over something we already had planned. But when the shoe was on the other foot...and my dad called last minute for a dinner invitation, he would tell him he needed to plan farther ahead and never would go. I only say that to try to illustrate some of the challenges that in-laws can add to a marriage if both partners aren't clear on the role of parents in relation to the marriage. It was only after I realized the B would never put me before anything or anyone SDA that I really realized that a marriage would never work. He gives me all he can as an outsider to his world, but that is all I am...an outsider to his world. I'm sure he cares for me as much as he safely can in his mind, but it's not enough to make a marriage. I will continue to remember you and your situation, but remember first and foremost, this is a spiritual battle. I doubt it would matter who the suitor was if he was not an SDA. It really is an us-them battle. Cry anytime. I know that pain. | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 391 Registered: 1-2003 |
Yes, I second what Melissa wrote. The mother knows you have been exposed to SDAism through contact with her and your fiance, yet you have not accepted it. SDA think that once you are exposed to the "truth" you are now accountable and if you reject it...you are lost. Before you knew the "truth" you were in ignorance but now you have been given light and you have rejected it in their opinion...and as Melissa said, it makes you their enemy. One reason is...they believe you will be the one to rise up and persecute them (even turning them into authorities for killing) in the time of trouble. So to have someone so close inside their family that one day might rat them out is very unsettling. I know this sounds crazy but there were many books written in the 70's and 80's about this paranoid (lacking faith in Jesus) view of life. In this mother's mind, she is seeing years of trouble ahead also for her grandchildren. Even marginal SDA's return to their roots when children are involved because Ellen taught that parents are responsible for the salvation of their children...so your future wife (unless God intervenes) will probably begin with Sabbath School for your children and then progress into full blown church, pathfinders, and insist on SDA schooling for them. I wish I could wave my magic wand for you and you would have clarity on what to do here. She absolutely has to separate from her parents as Melissa has stated. You might think about moving away after you are married. Maybe college somewhere...she has to get away from her mother's influence. You are up against serious brainwashing and years of conditioning here. It is not easy to deprogram things such as the Sabbath saves you, Christ was only our example, the IJ...the list goes on. I am praying for you to know what to do! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 703 Registered: 12-2003 |
I totally agree with everything Melissa and Pheeki have said. And I want to add one more caution: sometimes moving away doesn't stop the enmeshed daughter from relying on her parents. I knew an SDA couple who had this problem. The daughter could not comfortably decide anything with her husband unless she first discussed the issue with her parents. If her mother (in particular) disagreed with the idea, whatever it was, the daughter/wife would not support her husband and be unified with him. Even when the parents moved for a period of years to a different continent as missionaries, the daughter continued to consult Mom in everything and to listen to her even unsolicited advice. The daughter's need to have her parents' (and especially mom's) approval was huge. The couple eventually divorced. The husband is no longer SDA; the daughter/ex-wife is. The point is, the battle you face is huge. It is spiritual, not material, and it involves not only the very real issue of Adventism (which you threaten), but also the intra-family issues your fiancee has been raised in. Her being in love with you is not necessarily incentive enough to cause her to agree to turn from all she has been taught and from her need to please her mother. In some ways you may represent freedom from the enmeshed family of her origin, but when the rubber meets the road, the only way she knows to live is "enmeshed". Unless she truly finds Jesus as her Savior and discovers her personal identity in Him, she will be powerless to leave the guilt and the seduction of the emotional pull of her mom and of her church. I'm praying for you, hrobinsonw--and ask God to give you his peace and wisdom and to hold you in reality in spite of the anguish. Colleen | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 135 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hrob, As always you are in my thoughts and prayers. Remain true to your love for God and He will reward your life more than you could ever dream. | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 21 Registered: 9-2004 |
Wow.. C and I are 6 hours from his family right now, but in the back of my mind, i wondered if he would revert if we maried and moved to the state that he is from. He is a dear heart and I just hope that the decisions he makes are based on God lifting the veil from his eyes and not on his love for me. He is much stronger than that actually, so now that I think about it, he would def. be true to himself! with that said, Some amazing miraculous news: C told me yesterday that he feels that he would be comfortable going to church on Sundays and if we, in our home (if we got married) could observe the sabbath. Is this a breakthrough? I ask myself.. I am not sure. I am willing to compromise and do somthing of that sort BUT ONLY if he really sees that any day is available to us through the eyes of God to worship and that our rest is really in Jesus. The reason that I am that I am willing to come to this kind of compromise is b/c I have been reading some threads where some people have said it's just comfortable to keep the routine that they have had all of their life, and I know switching fully, cold turkey isn't easy sometimes for some people. I would like to think that if we found a Sunday church to call home, that he would understand that we could still enjoy a sabbath on that Sunday (i.e. tv off, no secular music, enjoy each other's company,parks, picnics, the zooetc AND go to church etc.) So I asked him if he was really *sure* that he could just give up his church, the people he worships with, the fellowship of like believers.. He said he's sure but not 100% sure but he is working toward it. Then he said "and sometimes we could go to SDA church" I said NO. not an option. I can't do it! I have known the Lord too long, without all those false teachings (which he didn't really know about a lot of EGW until Taylor's book) and I will not be in the church that was founded by a woman that was either too ignorant to accurately interpret the Word of God, or flat out a false prophet. Whatever the case, leaders that bring false doctrine can cause people their very souls and I WON'T BE A PART OF IT. It's is a spirit of anti-christ and I am angry about it. (Godly angry) It's not right! Jesus is Lord! Not a religion. <Had to get that off my chest> Nevertheless, I am happy to hear that he is strongly considering leaving SDA church. But I am not jumping for joy just yet b/c Iam afraid. And also b/c we need to discuss his reasons for being willing to join be permanently at a Sunday church. Ihave to believe it's God speaking to C through Taylor's book and testimony. Incidentally Melissa, when I met C, I didn't view us as being un= yoked b/c he is Christian. However, I was forced to leave my church if I didn't break up with him (he ws attending with me at the time) b/c they said he wasn't saved and I was not a good example which meant I was blatantly going against the Word of God. I TRULY had NO idea SDA was this deep. If I had,I would've said we were un = also. But in any case, The Lord has placed me in a wonderful new church that I have been at for 6-7 months now. And although I love and miss friends from the old (they pretty much agreed that I was wrong for dating him -- but they never knew my pastor gave me the ultimatum to leave C or leave my church) I left peaceably and still pray for them that love will abound in them to help people better. God Bless You all, and Keep praying! Any comments? Love, Tracey |
